Porsche 996 TT or 997 C?

[epbrown]

I'd get a 996 GT3 - it uses the same block as the 996TT so you avoid most of the common M96 issues, but isn't a turbo - but then, I've never been a fan of FI.

[devo]

Originally Posted by TwinTurboXI

If you have never really driven Porsche's much, and plan on driving it hard every so often, I would get the 996tt for the sole fact that its AWD. The 997 c2 is a great car, but to really use it to its potential, it could get very scary with the rwd and rear engine configuration.

The front end gets a little light when pressed very hard, but with all of the computer nannies in these contemporary 911s, the old widow maker adage does not apply. PSM does a wondeful job keeping these cars in line.

[devo]

Originally Posted by epbrown

I'd get a 996 GT3 - it uses the same block as the 996TT so you avoid most of the common M96 issues, but isn't a turbo - but then, I've never been a fan of FI.

Excellent choice, of course! The only warning I'd give to a 911 newbie is to very, very careful of the 996 GT3's behavior. This puppy does NOT have PSM and CAN get very scary for the novice and even the experienced driver.

To be clear the 997 C2(S) HAS PSM and TC, making it more safe for a novice.

[devo]

Originally Posted by DimSum

Whats the best place to look for nicely kept conditioned cars?
I tried giving ebay a shot but.. who knows the truth behind it. I would rather prefer to pick it off a private seller instead of some used car online dealership.
I'm worried that if I get an '03 996TT with Auto the gearbox will die shortly. You know like those horror stories with BMWs reverse poping ($3000) fix.



I grew up with a poster of a 996TT(dream car) in my room. Till today, it is still my favourite looking Porsche. The 997TT with LED tails looks good, but it is way out of my budget.

Cars.com and Autotrader.

[devo]

Originally Posted by Sticky

The performance is light years apart. One can pick up X50's in the year range he mentioned that trap ~10 mph higher than the wet sump 997's. It is a joke of a performance comparison. Hell, a chipped K16 car can break 120 mph, easily.

Not to mention the turbo has the GT1 block, wouldn't you want the block that was actually raced and is dry sump?

Additionally, with the X50 a simple flash or even just modding the existing turbo housing with a 18g impeller (k24/18g hybrid) can put you over 130 mph trap on stock internals. Hell, even with the K16's you can mod them now to put out over 600 WHEEL. The performance difference is freaking epic, only someone with very little experience with these vehicles would claim they are close in any way performance wise.

Regardless, I was in this position and the only reason I would have ended up in the 997 over the 996 turbo would have been to impress other people, not myself. The turbo will be the more satisfying drive and is a much better performance platform.

The moment you drive the turbo it will seal the deal for you. The moment a 997 C2S pulls up next to you and you dust it without even trying you will know you made the right choice. Buy the car that is more fun to drive, buy the man's car. Don't buy a car simply because it is a little prettier, the average person still can't tell a 993 from a 997.

The 997 has more than good looks over a 996 turbo.

[Donald-335i]

996tt is my next car after the lease is up on this one,

[footie]

Originally Posted by devo

The 997 has more than good looks over a 996 turbo.

Well we are in agreement there, but then so others view the ability to improve on it's straightline performance to be more important than either of us.

To address those that rightly state the awd of the Turbo would be a benefit, there is always the 997 C4S.

[DimSum]

Lets assume this is going to be my daily driver, it will indeed be driven throughout the winter. So I think 996TT AWD is a very good choice. I'll probably keep an eye out for the '03s. I do not need the X50 package, I'll probably be doing a k24/18g swap out later down the road.

Originally Posted by gonzo

414.

444 with the X50 pkg.

EDIT:

Talk about a bad economy..
This guy is here in Dallas and seems to be in a bind.

Asking $38,800.00
Not an auto guy myself, in these cars, but that is is hell of a lot of car for the money.

No issue Clean Carfax TURBO MAKE ME AN OFFER... Must sell by end of January...need the money. 2001 Porsche 996 Twin Turbo Coupe with only 35K miles. Speed Yellow on Dove Gray Leather Hide. TechArt BODY! Black Turbo Wheels accented with Yellow Ring Stripes. 3.6L Twin Turbo 415HP Engine. Tiptronic Transmission, Red Brembo Brake System, 4-wheel drive System, Amazing Suspension. One of a Kind Please email or call me about the car. Looking to sell and NEGOTIABLE on the price....

OP: RUF here in Dallas does PPI inspections for under $300 I believe.

That looks nice! Unfortunately I'll have to fly over to the states to inspect the car. What do you guys think for driving these cars throughout the winter?
Also what material is that body kit made out of?

Keep in mind, I am going from a non-turbo E90 to a 996TT if anything. So I do not have much experience with the 335i.
But theres no way in hell, I am going to upgrade my car to a 335i. 335i here in Canada is EVERYWHERE *espcially where I live*.
Plus I am bored of the BMW look, everywhere I go I see young teenagers with modded 335i.

What kind of maintance costs am I looking at? Is it easy DIY-able (oil changes and filters)?
Clutches?

[devo]

Originally Posted by DimSum

Lets assume this is going to be my daily driver, it will indeed be driven throughout the winter. So I think 996TT AWD is a very good choice. I'll probably keep an eye out for the '03s. I do not need the X50 package, I'll probably be doing a k24/18g swap out later down the road.




That looks nice! Unfortunately I'll have to fly over to the states to inspect the car. What do you guys think for driving these cars throughout the winter?
Also what material is that body kit made out of?

Keep in mind, I am going from a non-turbo E90 to a 996TT if anything. So I do not have much experience with the 335i.
But theres no way in hell, I am going to upgrade my car to a 335i. 335i here in Canada is EVERYWHERE *espcially where I live*.
Plus I am bored of the BMW look, everywhere I go I see young teenagers with modded 335i.

What kind of maintance costs am I looking at? Is it easy DIY-able (oil changes and filters)?
Clutches?

The car will be great for winter use. Be sure to get dedicated snows and mount them on a set of winter wheels. You're not going to want to use the standard width for winter. Your Porsche dealer and/or tire specialst (Tire Rack for example) can recommend the appropriate tire/wheel (width) combo.

The only other issue will be ground clearance; not a biggie, just be aware of the lower ride height.

I'd do the same and stick with a 2003 or later. The 2001 and 2002 had some trans. issues and the later models got better as the years progressed. There was a strong rumor that Porsche secretly added power to the later years in an effort to manage the competition.

Be certain to have a certified Porsche dealer or Ruf do a pre-inspection. Have the DME scanned for any over revs which are stored on the computer.

Oil changes are a DIY. You have more tasks because it's a true dry sump, but no big deal. Do your research on oil changes before tackling one.

996 turbos -they're not "tts"- use a bit of oil, so always carry a spare quart and check the level frequently. Also check the oil level of any car you are considering. I once looked at a C4S with 3k on the clock. It was down 3 quarts out of 7 or 8 that it takes. I think the turbos take close to 10.

[scollins]

Originally Posted by DimSum

That looks nice! Unfortunately I'll have to fly over to the states to inspect the car. What do you guys think for driving these cars throughout the winter?

A 996 on the Nordschleife in winter.

A 996TT in the snow in Minneapolis....

Direct link if the last one doesn't work...

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by devo

The 997 has more than good looks over a 996 turbo.

You edited your post Wonder why? Don't want to say you agree with me?

Such as? Like lack of a LSD in the MK1 997? Pretty interior? RMS issues? Wet sump block?

[footie]

Originally Posted by DimSum

What kind of maintance costs am I looking at? Is it easy DIY-able (oil changes and filters)?
Clutches?

That was why I said check this side of ownership out before jumping the gun. Anyway engine related on a 911 is a major job and shouldn't be done by yourself unless you are highly skilled. If not using the main dealers then look for specialists in your area as they usually work out cheaper (i.e. closer to BMW main dealer prices) as for part, well I wouldn't personally chose anything other than factory products, after all this isn't a joe-average 3 series we are talking about.

May I suggest you checking out specialists in your area and seeing what they quote on parts, service etc.

P.S.
They are truly brilliant cars either of your choices but regardless of what price they are secondhand they are still a Porsche and their ownership costs are still gauged accordingly.

Winter driving : the 911 is OK but it's main problem is width of rubber and ground clearance, so best stick to main roads when ever possible as you will get stuck for sure.

[devo]

Originally Posted by Sticky

You edited your post Wonder why? Don't want to say you agree with me?

Such as? Like lack of a LSD in the MK1 997? Pretty interior? RMS issues? Wet sump block?

Little paranoid??? Actually, I do agree with much of what you posted; just a little less than initially thought. No biggie.

Carrera's do not have the RMS issues you speak of. The GT3 dry sump does. The engine was designed to operate with a vacuum. The designed RMS adds a few ponies, according to Porsche. Garage queens suffer this fate much more than driven cars. LSD in a 911 isn't really that bug a deal. I may be wrong but I'm not so sure that the US 996 turbo has LSD. It was optional on the 997 turbo.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by devo

Little paranoid??? Actually, I do agree with much of what you posted; just a little less than initially thought. No biggie.

Carrera's do not have the RMS issues you speak of. The GT3 dry sump does. The engine was designed to operate with a vacuum. The designed RMS adds a few ponies, according to Porsche. Garage queens suffer this fate much more than driven cars. LSD in a 911 isn't really that bug a deal. I may be wrong but I'm not so sure that the US 996 turbo has LSD. It was optional on the 997 turbo.

Paranoid? Not sure how that word would apply, I was just curious why you change your post that said you agree with what I said, which was all correct as you said

Last I checked they all have RMS issues especially the carreras, not sure where you are getting your info: http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...ues-997-a.html
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...-rms-leak.html
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...s-leaking.html

LSD in a RWD high powered sports car is a big deal. The MkI 997 does not have it, there is a reason Porsche included it with the MKII. Probably because the Cayman was right on its heals without an LSD... it is not as big of a deal with AWD.

Didn't you have a 997S? Or you were getting one? Something along those lines, and with you currently owning a 997, I think that may be your bias showing through. I can't think of a reason to get a wet sump 997 over a 996 turbo other than if someone puts looks over performance.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Sticky

LSD in a RWD high powered sports car is a big deal. The MkI 997 does not have it, there is a reason Porsche included it with the MKII. Probably because the Cayman was right on its heals without an LSD... it is not as big of a deal with AWD.

No, not having a LSD in a RWD sport isn't that big of a deal unless your intention is to track the car regularly. And considering how quick both the Carrera and Cayman have been without it shows that up till now it's been a luxury and not a necessity. BTW there are bigger reasons to why the Cayman has been right on it's heals but let's save that for another thread.

Originally Posted by Sticky

Didn't you have a 997S? Or you were getting one? Something along those lines, and with you currently owning a 997, I think that may be your bias showing through. I can't think of a reason to get a wet sump 997 over a 996 turbo other than if someone puts looks over performance.

Wet sump vs dry sump is again more of an issue if you are constantly tracking the car but again I don't believe too many owners will be achieving the lateral Gs enough of the time to full warrant it's inclusion.

P.S.
I think the main difference between you and I on this and many other threads is that you are constantly looking at things from a purely maximizing the performance potential where I am looking at it from simply a daily driving point of view. It's not that you are wrong on many things only that I feel they are a bit extreme in most cases.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by footie

No, not having a LSD in a RWD sport isn't that big of a deal unless your intention is to track the car regularly. And considering how quick both the Carrera and Cayman have been without it shows that up till now it's been a luxury and not a necessity. BTW there are bigger reasons to why the Cayman has been right on it's heals but let's save that for another thread.



Wet sump vs dry sump is again more of an issue if you are constantly tracking the car but again I don't believe too many owners will be achieving the lateral Gs enough of the time to full warrant it's inclusion.

P.S.
I think the main difference between you and I on this and many other threads is that you are constantly looking at things from a purely maximizing the performance potential where I am looking at it from simply a daily driving point of view. It's not that you are wrong on many things only that I feel they are a bit extreme in most cases.

Not having an LSD in a RWD sports car isn't that big of a deal... Porsche seemed to think it was big enough of a deal that the MKII got it standard. BMW seemed to think it was a big enough deal to fit all their RWD M cars with it. Maybe you should write Porsche and BMW a letter with your thoughts on why they should save themselves some cash? Are you kidding me? This is a sports car we are talking about, not a grocery getter, it better have an LSD or it was just designed to look good.

Wet sump vs. dry sump in the Porsche world means GT1 block or wet sump block. It means the difference between a race bred GT3, turbo, GT2, or the carrera and Boxster. Don't you get it? Don't you get that the wet sump motors suffer from RMS issues? Don't you get that the wet sump motors internals aren't as strong? Don't you get the GT1 motors have been tested to the highest levels? It isn't about only lateral G's.

Even if it was about lateral G's, that is yet another thing the 996 turbo has going for it performance wise over the 997S. What exactly is the 997S offering other than aesthetics coupled with inferior engine parts?

No, the main difference between you and I is I know what I am talking about. If you want to buy a Porsche to show all your friends the interior, be my guest. I'm the kind of guy that buys a sports car to drive it and I would take my friends for a ride and have them crap their pants (another reason to not worry about the interior).

Honestly, you suggested the performance was similar and mentioned the horsepower without having any clue as to what is going on in the aftermarket. If you did, you would know how ridiculous that statement sounds, especially when the OP mentions a K24/18g.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Sticky

Not having an LSD in a RWD sports car isn't that big of a deal... Porsche seemed to think it was big enough of a deal that the MKII got it standard. BMW seemed to think it was a big enough deal to fit all their RWD M cars with it. Maybe you should write Porsche and BMW a letter with your thoughts on why they should save themselves some cash? Are you kidding me? This is a sports car we are talking about, not a grocery getter, it better have an LSD or it was just designed to look good.

Why sent a letter.

Originally Posted by Sticky

Wet sump vs. dry sump in the Porsche world means GT1 block or wet sump block. It means the difference between a race bred GT3, turbo, GT2, or the carrera and Boxster. Don't you get it? Don't you get that the wet sump motors suffer from RMS issues? Don't you get that the wet sump motors internals aren't as strong? Don't you get the GT1 motors have been tested to the highest levels? It isn't about only lateral G's.

Again we are talking about getting the most out of the engine which is a different subject altogether and why I put a 'P.S.' at the end of my reply.

Originally Posted by Sticky

Even if it was about lateral G's, that is yet another thing the 996 turbo has going for it performance wise over the 997S. What exactly is the 997S offering other than aesthetics coupled with inferior engine parts?

Again you are talking about getting the most out of the car which is different than the advice I was trying to give the OP, which was honest and experienced advice based on owning these cars. The running cost of a $40K 996TT is not the same as a $40K BMW and making someone aware of this is the decent thing.

Originally Posted by Sticky

No, the main difference between you and I is I know what I am talking about. If you want to buy a Porsche to show all your friends the interior, be my guest. I'm the kind of guy that buys a sports car to drive it and I would take my friends for a ride and have them crap their pants (another reason to not worry about the interior).

I do try to be civil with you at every opportunity but you all continue to make things personal, you don't know who you are talking to or anyway about the knowledge I may or may not have. Best refrain from going down that road is all I will say on the subject.

Originally Posted by Sticky

Honestly, you suggested the performance was similar and mentioned the horsepower without having any clue as to what is going on in the aftermarket. If you did, you would know how ridiculous that statement sounds, especially when the OP mentions a K24/18g.

Again I think it's a sensible thing to advice on the pitfalls of tuning such an expensive car to repair without doing the research, maybe you feel otherwise which is your prerogative.

[Sticky]

Originally Posted by footie

Why sent a letter.

Again we are talking about getting the most out of the engine which is a different subject altogether and why I put a 'P.S.' at the end of my reply.

Again you are talking about getting the most out of the car which is different than the advice I was trying to give the OP, which was honest and experienced advice based on owning these cars. The running cost of a $40K 996TT is not the same as a $40K BMW and making someone aware of this is the decent thing.

I do try to be civil with you at every opportunity but you all continue to make things personal, you don't know who you are talking to or anyway about the knowledge I may or may not have. Best refrain from going down that road is all I will say on the subject.

Again I think it's a sensible thing to advice on the pitfalls of tuning such an expensive car to repair without doing the research, maybe you feel otherwise which is your prerogative.

Your advice really makes a lot of sense.

Forget the GT1 block, forget the race bred motor, forget the stronger internals, forget the higher performance, forget the better modability, forget that the turbo is more fun to drive, forget that the bottom of the line Porsches get thrown the wet sump block, forget the MKI 997 has no LSD, forget it all. Good stuff, thank you for that, and I am sure the OP appreciates it.

All your advice consisted of was getting the service records, thank you. Very helpful stuff, and when the OP asks for someone to give him common sense suggestions you can chime in as if it is something of value.

Now, you have owned a 996 turbo and 997? No, you have not, so I don't understand your statement. Who is comparing the running cost to a BMW? Secondly, I would rather maintain the car out of warranty that I know is not as prone to RMS failures. If you had the experience you were saying you would know this. I can't help but get the impression you are speaking to simply act like you are some kind of authority without the knowledge to support it.

Say whatever you like, we all know if it does not go your way you will run to the mods to delete posts. I'm not like that, I can sit here all day and fight my battles all by myself.

Again, what is sensible is for you to read up on the tuning aspects of the vehicles as you do not have the knowledge. What is the pitfall of tuning a K16 or K24 car? Please, enlighten us all. You do realize the OP mentioned mods, right? You do understand he mentioned turbo upgrades, right? So why do you not seem to understand your perspective on the vehicles stock is not providing the necessary supplemental information? Maybe you should simply allow those that are familiar with the performance, mods, and the results on these cars to post about it, and help the guy, ok? Thanks

[devo]

Originally Posted by Sticky

Paranoid? Not sure how that word would apply, I was just curious why you change your post that said you agree with what I said, which was all correct as you said

Last I checked they all have RMS issues especially the carreras, not sure where you are getting your info: http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...ues-997-a.html
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...-rms-leak.html
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...s-leaking.html

LSD in a RWD high powered sports car is a big deal. The MkI 997 does not have it, there is a reason Porsche included it with the MKII. Probably because the Cayman was right on its heals without an LSD... it is not as big of a deal with AWD.

Didn't you have a 997S? Or you were getting one? Something along those lines, and with you currently owning a 997, I think that may be your bias showing through. I can't think of a reason to get a wet sump 997 over a 996 turbo other than if someone puts looks over performance.

No, I never said that I agreed with all that you posted. I did initially agree with most or much, can't remember for sure. After further thought, I changed my mind and agreed with less than I initially thought. I still do agree with SOME of what you posted.

You really enjoy arguing though. Good for you.

And, where is the bias??? I own a true dry sump GT3.

[devo]

Originally Posted by Sticky

Your advice really makes a lot of sense.

Forget the GT1 block, forget the race bred motor, forget the stronger internals, forget the higher performance, forget the better modability, forget that the turbo is more fun to drive, forget that the bottom of the line Porsches get thrown the wet sump block, forget the MKI 997 has no LSD, forget it all. Good stuff, thank you for that, and I am sure the OP appreciates it.

All your advice consisted of was getting the service records, thank you. Very helpful stuff, and when the OP asks for someone to give him common sense suggestions you can chime in as if it is something of value.

Now, you have owned a 996 turbo and 997? No, you have not, so I don't understand your statement. Who is comparing the running cost to a BMW? Secondly, I would rather maintain the car out of warranty that I know is not as prone to RMS failures. If you had the experience you were saying you would know this. I can't help but get the impression you are speaking to simply act like you are some kind of authority without the knowledge to support it.

Say whatever you like, we all know if it does not go your way you will run to the mods to delete posts. I'm not like that, I can sit here all day and fight my battles all by myself.

Again, what is sensible is for you to read up on the tuning aspects of the vehicles as you do not have the knowledge. What is the pitfall of tuning a K16 or K24 car? Please, enlighten us all. You do realize the OP mentioned mods, right? You do understand he mentioned turbo upgrades, right? So why do you not seem to understand your perspective on the vehicles stock is not providing the necessary supplemental information? Maybe you should simply allow those that are familiar with the performance, mods, and the results on these cars to post about it, and help the guy, ok? Thanks

Good for you!!!

Who says the 996 turbo is more fun to drive? You? Some prefer NA engines.

Anyway, again, you've become a bit annoying.

[DimSum]

Thanks for all the input you guys have provided, in the end the 996 does seem like a wise choice. I will be using it as a daily driver, plus some turbo upgrades down the road maybe in a year or two's time. I'll take a look at the maintance costs first, and see what specialists charge here in my area. But I think oil changes and filter changes I can probably tackle, I'm quite handy and I don't mind getting my hands dirty.

So the best idea is to hire a Porsche specialist and inspect the car before purchase?
Will he do compression test and DME scans? What is the average going rate for these kinda tests?

Also when purchasing a 996TT, where is the best place to pick one up? Is there any specific states in the US which have cars better condition then others? I am located right on top of New York, where niagara falls is. So I think if I'm going to buy a car, I'll either ship it for extra cost or drive it back.

[devo]

Originally Posted by DimSum

Thanks for all the input you guys have provided, in the end the 996 does seem like a wise choice. I will be using it as a daily driver, plus some turbo upgrades down the road maybe in a year or two's time. I'll take a look at the maintance costs first, and see what specialists charge here in my area. But I think oil changes and filter changes I can probably tackle, I'm quite handy and I don't mind getting my hands dirty.

So the best idea is to hire a Porsche specialist and inspect the car before purchase?
Will he do compression test and DME scans? What is the average going rate for these kinda tests?

Also when purchasing a 996TT, where is the best place to pick one up? Is there any specific states in the US which have cars better condition then others? I am located right on top of New York, where niagara falls is. So I think if I'm going to buy a car, I'll either ship it for extra cost or drive it back.

$150-$300 for a PPI (Pre-Purchase Inspection). Check with your Porsche dealer as to what is included in the PPI. It is fairly complete. The DME scan will reveal any over revs and categorize them. I believe they range from 1-6. I know 1 and 2's are not a concern; not so sure 3 is either. 4,5,6 are a definate concern. Your dealer can explain this.

Don't forget my oil advice.

I wouldn't be concerned with the location of a specific car as most owners store them in the winter.