BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Suspension | Brakes | Chassis
 
Lux Angel Eyes
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      12-12-2017, 07:47 PM   #1
steven_s
Second Lieutenant
21
Rep
297
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Canada

iTrader: (3)

subframe delrin vs solid alum

So I've done the search and no one (vendors nor personal) has really answered this question. Well at least not that I've found.

For the subframe bushings is there a performance difference? I know the 2 piece delrin was to enter specific races with non-solid requirements.

The car in question will be

- tracked
- never will be fully gutted
- never will be supercharged

Anyone?
Appreciate 0
      12-12-2017, 10:04 PM   #2
roastbeef
Major General
roastbeef's Avatar
United_States
1843
Rep
6,618
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (1)

is this car your daily driver? i have solid sub, and derlin diff bushings. i enjoy them, but they magnify the clunky nature of the dct. i also have a one piece carbon driveshaft that makes it even more direct. car feels pretty raw, but i have to say i like it. the whine is noticeable with the windows up, but not noticeable with the windows down. i'd do this mod again if i crashed my car and bought another.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      12-12-2017, 10:49 PM   #3
Redd
Lieutenant
106
Rep
576
Posts

Drives: 2010 BMW E92 M3 Dakar Edition
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Malaysia

iTrader: (0)

Solid subframe bushings add zero NVH
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2017, 01:19 AM   #4
steven_s
Second Lieutenant
21
Rep
297
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Canada

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by roastbeef View Post
is this car your daily driver? i have solid sub, and derlin diff bushings. i enjoy them, but they magnify the clunky nature of the dct. i also have a one piece carbon driveshaft that makes it even more direct. car feels pretty raw, but i have to say i like it. the whine is noticeable with the windows up, but not noticeable with the windows down. i'd do this mod again if i crashed my car and bought another.
Thanks, as quoted below you subframe doesn't add NVH. It's the diff bushing (as well as the CF driveshaft) that added the NVH.

I have the solid diff on its way. I don't mind a little NVH.

My question is specifically regarding performance of the subframe bushing with regards to solid aluminum and the delrin one.

Does the delrin ever feel less "planted" and "connected" than the pure aluminum being 2 pieces whether as a daily or on the track. I'm not looking for hearsay or raw science being that delrin is not metal, expands more than alum, etc Looking for real world application with regards to our car.
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2017, 01:44 AM   #5
Redd
Lieutenant
106
Rep
576
Posts

Drives: 2010 BMW E92 M3 Dakar Edition
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Malaysia

iTrader: (0)

I doubt there's anyone who's installed Delrin first and then removed it and installed solid. So will be hard to find someone who can tell you differences of both.
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2017, 02:13 AM   #6
roastbeef
Major General
roastbeef's Avatar
United_States
1843
Rep
6,618
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by steven_s View Post
Thanks, as quoted below you subframe doesn't add NVH. It's the diff bushing (as well as the CF driveshaft) that added the NVH.

I have the solid diff on its way. I don't mind a little NVH.

My question is specifically regarding performance of the subframe bushing with regards to solid aluminum and the delrin one.

Does the delrin ever feel less "planted" and "connected" than the pure aluminum being 2 pieces whether as a daily or on the track. I'm not looking for hearsay or raw science being that delrin is not metal, expands more than alum, etc Looking for real world application with regards to our car.
i don't think it is going to matter to be honest with you. i don't have real world data, and i can't think of why someone would switch subframe bushings. i know someone swapped solid/derlin diff bushings, but thats it.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2017, 10:03 AM   #7
dparm
But doctor...I am Pagliacci.
dparm's Avatar
United_States
700
Rep
4,994
Posts

Drives: Corvette Grand Sport
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Chicago, IL

iTrader: (0)

Look at it this way: BMW switched to solid mounts in the F-series M3 and it's not exactly like owners are complaining en masse about NVH.
__________________
Now: 2017 Corvette Grand Sport
Past: 2011.5 M3 sedan ZCP
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2017, 10:39 AM   #8
steven_s
Second Lieutenant
21
Rep
297
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Canada

iTrader: (3)

Yeah so maybe this got confusing somewhere lol

I currently still have my oem bushings.

For a fact I know subframe bushings are a positive game changer for our cars.

I have the opportunity to buy both. I can actually save almost a $100 buying delrin in this instance (whereas vendors have it the other way ie delrin costs more)

I want to know if there is a difference in performance. I'll gladly pay the extra $100 for solid aluminum if it yields better results and longer lasting.
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2017, 12:24 PM   #9
pbonsalb
Brigadier General
627
Rep
4,786
Posts

Drives: 08 E90 M3, 99 E36 M3 Turbo
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Concord, NH

iTrader: (3)

I doubt anyone other than a race car driver could notice the difference. 75D poly or Delrin is a major improvement and the 2 piece poly/plastic bushings are easier to install. I am very happy with the 75D poly that I installed and happy that I installed only 95A poly for the diff bushings since they still sing/whine a bit in the 65-75 mph range on the highway. But Id rather have stiffer diff bushing than a broken diff bolt or broken diff cover or bent subframe - things that have happened to a few forum members.
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2017, 04:32 PM   #10
roastbeef
Major General
roastbeef's Avatar
United_States
1843
Rep
6,618
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (1)

Probably not a significant difference. I just went metal because why not have 100% metal? It's cool. Realistically, it probability doesn't matter.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2017, 06:50 PM   #11
Redd
Lieutenant
106
Rep
576
Posts

Drives: 2010 BMW E92 M3 Dakar Edition
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Malaysia

iTrader: (0)

Solid bushings won't wear. If you ever have to replace the Delrin ones, $100 won't be anywhere close to the labor charges you will incur. Just go solid. There is no downside.
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2017, 07:14 PM   #12
steven_s
Second Lieutenant
21
Rep
297
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Canada

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redd View Post
Solid bushings won't wear. If you ever have to replace the Delrin ones, $100 won't be anywhere close to the labor charges you will incur. Just go solid. There is no downside.
Well... technically Delrin is not supposed to either.
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2017, 07:26 PM   #13
Hujan
Brigadier General
Hujan's Avatar
United_States
284
Rep
3,619
Posts

Drives: 2013 E92 M3
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (15)

There's zero reason to avoid solid aluminum in the subframe. Going to more solid bushings in the subframe does not affect NVH. Even if it did, I can't imagine you'd gain anything by going with delrin over aluminum. Delrin is very hard stuff. Just go aluminum and don't look back.
__________________
E92 M3: MRF Velaforza | Brembo GT | KW Clubsport | BBS E88 | Recaro Sportsters
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2017, 08:13 PM   #14
steven_s
Second Lieutenant
21
Rep
297
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Canada

iTrader: (3)

Well that's the thing. Delrin is there as an option for reasons. Now for me specifically my case to go delrin over the aluminum is to save $100. But that's if everything is the same. If aluminum is proven to last longer provide better feedback etc then I'll be glad to spend the extra 100.
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2017, 08:44 PM   #15
buddalun
Lieutenant Colonel
buddalun's Avatar
United_States
376
Rep
1,650
Posts

Drives: '12 ZCP M3 & 911
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: USA

iTrader: (7)

How about the Turner Aluminum and Delrin option:

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-1...e82-1m-e9x-m3/
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2017, 09:22 PM   #16
steven_s
Second Lieutenant
21
Rep
297
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Canada

iTrader: (3)

Lol that's the one in question. Their delrin and their aluminum ones.
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2017, 09:36 PM   #17
buddalun
Lieutenant Colonel
buddalun's Avatar
United_States
376
Rep
1,650
Posts

Drives: '12 ZCP M3 & 911
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: USA

iTrader: (7)

So you are comparing these:



With these:



I doubt you could feel any difference b/w the two. If you're not class limited like the Delrin/Aluminum are intended for, go solid and be done with it (and save $200).
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2017, 09:38 PM   #18
steven_s
Second Lieutenant
21
Rep
297
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Canada

iTrader: (3)

I get what everyone is saying and coming from.

But if it's identical no one wants to save $100 and go delrin? They're both considered solid bushings.

My scenario is different that going delrin is cheaper. Turner sells delrin more expensive.

$100 is $100...
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2017, 09:50 PM   #19
Redd
Lieutenant
106
Rep
576
Posts

Drives: 2010 BMW E92 M3 Dakar Edition
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Malaysia

iTrader: (0)

Jayzus. Just buy the Delrin.
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2017, 10:34 PM   #20
spazzyfry123
Lieutenant
spazzyfry123's Avatar
United_States
188
Rep
455
Posts

Drives: '11 E90 M3 6MT Stripper
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Atlanta

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2011 BMW E90 M3  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redd View Post
Jayzus. Just buy the Delrin.
Delrin is great stuff. Will there be a potential maintenance concern later on down the line that would not have been apparent with true solid bushings, however? Save $100 now and spend xxx later to replace again. Of course, if we're talking 50 years from now the Delrin will start to show wear then moot point....
Appreciate 0
      12-26-2017, 11:39 PM   #21
atopa2002
First Lieutenant
United_States
30
Rep
314
Posts

Drives: Z3M, 2013 e92 M3, F15 X5
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Richmond,VA

iTrader: (2)

Remember ease of install too plays a roll , I went with AKG because of this fact and I was installing it myself .
Appreciate 0
      01-12-2018, 12:03 AM   #22
MTBislife
New Member
2
Rep
5
Posts

Drives: 2011.5 E92 M3 DCT ZCP
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Northern Arizona

iTrader: (0)

If $100 is so important that you can't make a decision about bushings, I think you may have bought the wrong car.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:29 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST