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01-08-2010, 08:37 AM | #89 |
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No one is disagreeing that weight isn't important, especially me but I was only stating that it's in a list of important things to improve lap times. You quoted a Lotus 7 but there is far more than just the weight that make it so special on a track, stuff like it's width in relation to it's height and wheelbase and it's CoG all of which when combined with it's weight make it an incredibly gifted trackday car.
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01-08-2010, 09:36 AM | #90 | |
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i guarantee the price of the cayman will go up significantly if they put a bigger enginer in it. so for the price which is comparable or more expensive than the m3, it is overpriced and under power and not faster despite you have to give up the daily practicality. |
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01-08-2010, 10:32 AM | #91 | |
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How often do you go to the track yourself in a year? 99.9% of people don't track their cars or maybe a few times a year and even on the track, the m3 can hang with the more track focus cayman s or 911 s. So mostly cars are used for street. People buy car based on practically, look, bang for the buck, performance. In this contest, cayman s or 911/s are no match for the m3 in the look, bang for the buck, and practicality. the stock m3 looks so much better than both cayman s or base 911/s and I'm sure many here would agree. Just look at this video for the truth . I cannot see how a base 911 is better looking than the m3 in this video (not to mention the amazing fun drift you can do in the m3, not so easy/smooth in the 911).. the cayman is even uglier than the 911 IMO. I've seen countless on the street and I have never been impressed by the look of the cayman or base 911/s. Exception to those that looks good are 997 gt3/gt3 rs/turbo/gt2 and you are talking about 100-200k cars here, so they better look good with aggressive rims, body kit and wing, big bbk, carbon seat, etc. My point is base 911/s and cayman s are way over price when you compare them to the m3. Especially when most people start counting the look when purchase a car, it is no contest. Nothing touch the m3 at 60k including offer from Porsche. Porche makes the highest profit because they are way over price. I know you have said many time before the cayman s feel better. sure, you can do that with an m3 too. You stated the z4m was very close to the cayman s in feel in another thread. It is mainly due to the weight and aggresive suspension tuning of the cayman s and z4m and the cayman s is lighter as well. You can do that to an m3 to get that feel but keep in mind the stock m3 is tuned toward gt than track and gt is better for street. e.g. remove rear seat, light weight recaro pp, carbon roof, light weight battery, lightweight forged 18, bbk, big sway, coilover, remove sound insulation, and you have some serious track machine with even more direct feel than the z4m or cayman s. |
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01-08-2010, 10:40 AM | #92 | |
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weight is the most important in a track car. you want to race on a track, first thing first is drop the weight. the less weight the better. you accelerate faster, corner faster, brake and suspension don't have to work as hard compare to a heavier car. I say weight is the killer. |
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01-08-2010, 10:42 AM | #93 | |
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How often do you go to the track yourself in a year? 99.9% of people don't track their cars or maybe a few times a year and even on the track, the m3 can hang with the more track focus cayman s or 911 s. So mostly cars are used for street. People buy car based on practically, look, bang for the buck, performance. In this contest, cayman s or 911/s are no match for the m3 in the look, bang for the buck, and practicality. the stock m3 looks so much better than both cayman s or base 911/s and I'm sure many here would agree. Just look at this video for the truth . I cannot see how a base 911 is better looking than the m3 in this video (not to mention the amazing fun drift you can do in the m3, not so easy/smooth in the 911).. the cayman is even uglier than the 911 IMO. I've seen countless on the street and I have never been impressed by the look of the cayman or base 911/s. Exception to those that looks good are 997 gt3/gt3 rs/turbo/gt2 and you are talking about 100-200k cars here, so they better look good with aggressive rims, body kit and wing, big bbk, carbon seat, etc. My point is base 911/s and cayman s are way over price when you compare them to the m3. Especially when most people start counting the look when purchase a car, it is no contest. Nothing touch the m3 at 60k including offer from Porsche. I know you have said many time before the cayman s feel better. sure, bmw can do it too as you stated the z4m was very close to the cayman s in feel. It is mainly due to the weight and aggresive suspension tuning. You can do that to an m3 too but keep in mind the stock m3 is tuned toward gt than track and gt is better for street. e.g. remove rear seat, light weight recaro pp, carbon roof, light weight battery, lightweight forged 18, bbk, big sway, coilover, remove sound insulation, and you have some serious track machine with even more direct feel than the z4m or cayman s. |
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01-08-2010, 10:45 AM | #94 |
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One could easily argue that the M3 is far more 'track' focused in it's development than the Cayman S is. It's the one with the CF roof, the proper LSD, the tweaked power steering system, the extensive use of alloy, where as the Cayman S is simply a 2 seater coupe with no fancy diff, no exotic panel materials, just good old fashioned steel.
One could also argue that the Cayman didn't need any of this simply because it was a 2 seater coupe which weighed so much less to start with. |
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01-08-2010, 10:46 AM | #95 | |
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01-08-2010, 10:48 AM | #96 |
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01-08-2010, 10:51 AM | #97 | |
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just because a car has lsd, cf roof doesn't mean it is track focus. track focus cars don't have 4 adult size seats to begin with. |
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01-08-2010, 10:58 AM | #98 | |
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Looked around the paddock at a proper race meet lately, have you see too many proper racing cars that don't follow those principles. |
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01-08-2010, 11:08 AM | #99 |
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Very odd that the entry speed on all of the main difficult sections showed the Carrera S to be greater than the Cayman S. That is not the usual way to drive a 911.
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01-08-2010, 11:11 AM | #100 | |
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My god, I praised the M3 ................ call the papers, it's a red letter day. |
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01-08-2010, 11:14 AM | #101 | |
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the gts is 330lbs because it is still bigger than the 997 gt3 in dimension. Simple as that. If it can hang with the 997 gt3 on the track as bmw claimed, then that is impressive. btw, none of the car you mention gt car with 4 adult seats. corvette grandsport and porsche rs spyder. So yes, none of those touch the m3 at 60k if you consider everything as I stated in my previous post. Last edited by graider; 01-08-2010 at 11:34 AM.. |
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01-08-2010, 11:19 AM | #102 | |
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01-08-2010, 11:25 AM | #103 | |
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yes, ferrari and lambo are overprice. you just point out exactly why they are overprice "need to cover R&D" and that is exactly my point. Problem is I think for the pedigree, look, status some of the ferrari and lambo are justify for the rich. but the rich wont' buy cayman s or base 911 and that is the problem. |
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01-08-2010, 11:29 AM | #104 | |
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01-08-2010, 11:32 AM | #105 | |
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btw, i never say anything about you praise the m3 or not. so not sure why you feel that way. It seem you want to defend shift@red love for porsche than anything. didn't you read his comments about gt3 is the best car ever and he would pick it over the scuderia? lol |
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01-08-2010, 12:43 PM | #106 | |
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I think you confused yourself after all this discussion because it looked like you value a car based solely on track performance and nothing else. I said it before and i will say it again. combine everything for a street car, cayman s and base 911 is totally over price compare to a 60k m3 and cannot see myself paying for those two over the m3. If it is a turbo, gt3, gt3 rs, etc then that's a different story but I think the turbo is also overprice. |
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01-08-2010, 01:02 PM | #107 | |
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01-08-2010, 01:31 PM | #108 | |
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Oh and yes this is racing experience I am talking about. |
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01-08-2010, 01:33 PM | #109 | |
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Here is a task for you: Please look up the lengthy posts here on the forum on Nurburgring/power to weight/regression. I am not denying the importance of low weight. However, in the end, in the world of street cars (and exotic street cars) power to weight is by far the single most important factor, track and strip. It also doesn't really matter how tight the track is. Of course when things get as tight at auto-x there will be some exceptions with very light cars with very sticky rubber, etc. Now that being said there will of course be exceptions to this "rule" about power to weight. You can see some exceptions in the regression analysis itself. However, comparing a dedicated, highly modified race car to a production sports sedan is not a good way to understand the physics based essence of a problem. In this case the tires and radical suspension tuning also play huge roles in addition to the power to weight. Such radical changes require an entirely different group of cars to be examined together with regression. Guess what you will then find.... power to weight rules.
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01-08-2010, 01:59 PM | #110 | |
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