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      02-23-2014, 12:35 PM   #1
MrStinky
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why note bore s65?

I posted a link to dinans 4.2 l bored s65 replacement engine
http://dinancars.com/product/d850-11...ries&mid=1114/

Why hasn't any builders bored s65 to 4.2-4.3 and would save a ton of parts. Simply replace with larger cylinders. Keep same crank, rods and everything. Keeps the engine over squared even more and seems to make peak power at 8300 per dinan rather than shifting curve left...

I'm betting given sub par stroker cars power we have seen, a FBO 4.3 l bored s65 with nice new light pistons would easily crank out 430 -440 who and maintain peak power at top end and not suffer as badly with breathing issues of bigger 4.6 striker.
.
Seems like a pretty cheap, relatively speaking mod. Or is the problem coating the cylinder walls again?

Id have thought cylinder spacing is too tight initially but clearly din an shows its not.

Who else wants a 4 2-4.3 bored s65???
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      02-23-2014, 12:57 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrStinky View Post
I posted a link to dinans 4.2 l bored s65 replacement engine
http://dinancars.com/product/d850-11...ries&mid=1114/

Why hasn't any builders bored s65 to 4.2-4.3 and would save a ton of parts. Simply replace with larger cylinders. Keep same crank, rods and everything. Keeps the engine over squared even more and seems to make peak power at 8300 per dinan rather than shifting curve left...

I'm betting given sub par stroker cars power we have seen, a FBO 4.3 l bored s65 with nice new light pistons would easily crank out 430 -440 who and maintain peak power at top end and not suffer as badly with breathing issues of bigger 4.6 striker.
.
Seems like a pretty cheap, relatively speaking mod. Or is the problem coating the cylinder walls again?

Id have thought cylinder spacing is too tight initially but clearly din an shows its not.

Who else wants a 4 2-4.3 bored s65???
I have a full spreadsheet of costs and materials for such a build. But if you think that a stroker isn't cost effective, then this is even less cost effective. The only price difference between this and a stroker is literally the cost of the crankshaft -- and "maybe" the cost of connecting rods. You want a budget stroker? That can be done too. I know how to build a stroker for barely more than the price you quoted in the other thread.
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      02-23-2014, 01:00 PM   #3
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Why is this more costly? Why don't you contribute some helpful info on topic if you have done extensive research. Din an is doing it for a lot cheaper than their stroker so I guessyou know something sSteve din an doesn't? Or he has a much more cost effective way than whatever your plan includes
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      02-23-2014, 01:04 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrStinky View Post
Why is this more costly? Why don't you contribute some helpful info on topic if you have done extensive research. Din an is doing it for a lot cheaper than their stroker so I guessyou know something sSteve din an doesn't? Or he has a much more cost effective way than whatever your plan includes
I said "cost effective" not "costly."

I have no plan...I'm not a business. I'm just telling you facts -- that's my contribution. Take it or leave it. What more do you want than facts? Just let me know and I'll see if I can help.

You are free to cost one out yourself to check my math, and then make your own determination what's cost effective and what isn't.
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      02-23-2014, 01:13 PM   #5
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You said you have a whole spreadsheet? Then tell us all what is so not cost effective? Requires no crank which can be 3-5 k. Requires only pistons. I asked about coating the cylinders which may or may not be a problem if you put new pistons. So what is all this complication and please post your spread sheet. Why yould make a spreadsheet on cost of boring this engine seems bizarre
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      02-23-2014, 01:58 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by MrStinky View Post
You said you have a whole spreadsheet? Then tell us all what is so not cost effective? Requires no crank which can be 3-5 k. Requires only pistons. I asked about coating the cylinders which may or may not be a problem if you put new pistons. So what is all this complication and please post your spread sheet. Why yould make a spreadsheet on cost of boring this engine seems bizarre
I don't need to explain why I have a spreadsheet with costs and part numbers. I'm also not going to post it here. I'll be happy to share with you in private. But before contacting me, I want you to think long and hard about how you talk to people who you're asking for favors.
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      02-23-2014, 04:15 PM   #7
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Would mention that the list price for Dinan engine builds including strokers can be negotiated.
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      02-23-2014, 09:20 PM   #8
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If all they're doing is boring out the motor an additional .2L, it's not worth $17k. I mean, what would be your goals after boring out the motor? If you're looking to supercharge the motor, I'm gonna assume Dinan has done ZERO FI research, so there would be no warranty if the motor failed after adding a blower. IF you were looking to build an N/A track motor, you'd be better off with a true stroker (not what Dinan or RD Sport are offering), with a complete build (like VAC's) that offers Heads, Cams, Crank, Pistons, Rods, Sleeves, Different Compression Ratios, etc.
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      02-23-2014, 09:29 PM   #9
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I think whats missing in this discussion is that the Dinan motor is warrantied. I would definitely consider this if I was in the market to replace a warn engine.

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      02-23-2014, 11:08 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mit_Boost View Post
If all they're doing is boring out the motor an additional .2L, it's not worth $17k. I mean, what would be your goals after boring out the motor? If you're looking to supercharge the motor, I'm gonna assume Dinan has done ZERO FI research, so there would be no warranty if the motor failed after adding a blower. IF you were looking to build an N/A track motor, you'd be better off with a true stroker (not what Dinan or RD Sport are offering), with a complete build (like VAC's) that offers Heads, Cams, Crank, Pistons, Rods, Sleeves, Different Compression Ratios, etc.
I think a lot of engine builders can do what you're asking -- at least four engine builders I deal with can. I'll be happy to share the names of those builders (via PM/email) for anybody interested. When I wrote the first stroker shootout article, I mentioned that RD Sport will build any motor in any bore/stroke combo specified, in any compression ratio. I'm not sure if I mentioned that they also offer their own cam designs (not reselling Schrick cams). If I didn't mention it, I know they have two cam grinds of their own that are different than Schrick. I'm not sure if they're listed from their web site, but I know EAS has listed them for sale at theirs. A few months ago, RDS had a ported head in the works as well. I know Dinan does a ton of research. But to be honest I never asked what they did for their new S65 race motors. Now I'm curious and next time I stop by there, I'll be sure to ask.

I see you're a big fan of VAC and sleeving the block because I've seen you mention that a lot. Nothing wrong with that and I've sent people to VAC as well. You ding Dinan saying they probably haven't done any research and yet I'm wondering the same thing about VAC because I've never seen them publish any research articles or research results. For example, I'd like to know if they've ever cut into a head to know how far they can go porting and polishing before hitting water and oil? I'd love to see this because that's the right way to research porting and polishing. I'd also like to see their analysis of where the S65 heads are lacking and how they were improved them. And like you, I want to see the testing results as proof to back it up. I'll ask Dinan the same thing next time I'm in there. I'd also like to see what research has been on sleeving the block. I know of five sleeved block have already failed thus far on the west coast and abroad and that makes me very curious what research has been done here as well. One of them failed on the dyno right after break in. I'd like to see if they've put a strain gauge or other instruments on a sleeved block to see how much it flexes without the structural integrity of the cylinder bores. That's how you'll know if sleeving is safe.

You've probably figured out that I'm not a blind believer without proof and your signature tells me you aren't either: "data and concrete proof over everything." So if there's any research you (or VAC) can share on either porting/polishing or sleeved blocks, please share it so we can all become more familiar with the research, testing, and of course the results to back it up.

But back on topic. Dinan is offering a rebuilt stock engine that's been bored to higher displacement. Cost of boring is about $800-$900. Cost of pistons is about $2200. So this is nothing but building a stock motor with an extra $3k in parts. The rest of the expenses are the same as building any other S65 engine. Only you can determine if there's another $14k worth of expenses in a build like this.

93.0 mm pistons will give you 4087 cc engine.
93.5 mm pistons will give you 4131 cc engine.
94.0 mm pistons will give you 4175 cc engine.

Different compression ratios are easy for any competent engine builder. I've got a spreadsheet to calculate all the dimensions of custom pistons as well. I've posted the formulas to calculate compression ratio before. It's not that much more difficult to take those same formulas and apply one or two other pieces of data to design your own custom pistons. So these things may sound difficult, but they really aren't that difficult if you know how to do it.
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      02-24-2014, 12:13 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by regular guy View Post

But back on topic. Dinan is offering a rebuilt stock engine that's been bored to higher displacement. Cost of boring is about $800-$900. Cost of pistons is about $2200. So this is nothing but building a stock motor with an extra $3k in parts. The rest of the expenses are the same as building any other S65 engine. Only you can determine if there's another $14k worth of expenses in a build like this.
This raises a good point: Assuming I had a stock S65 motor with 100,000 miles on it, how much would it cost (parts and labor) to bore it, replace the pistons, bearings, etc., so that I could run it for another 100,000 miles?
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      02-24-2014, 01:13 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mit_Boost View Post
IF you were looking to build an N/A track motor, you'd be better off with a true stroker (not what Dinan or RD Sport are offering), with a complete build (like VAC's) that offers Heads, Cams, Crank, Pistons, Rods, Sleeves, Different Compression Ratios, etc.
Someone has been drinking VAC's cool-aid a lot lately it seems. You lost me at "true stroker". What does head build have to do with stroker kit? No one includes a head build in their stroker kit including VAC. Their head package is completely different thing. And since you are such a big fan of data, i'd like you show me one single piece of data from VAC stroker build or head build. I bet you don't have any besides the 13.5:1 CR build dyno. I like what VAC does and if i didn't i wouldn't be a customer of theirs since 2007. However, i see them more of a race shop albeit a lot bigger.
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      02-24-2014, 09:16 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hujan View Post
This raises a good point: Assuming I had a stock S65 motor with 100,000 miles on it, how much would it cost (parts and labor) to bore it, replace the pistons, bearings, etc., so that I could run it for another 100,000 miles?
First separate the parts and the labor. Brushing aside volume discounting, the parts costs are the same for Dinan as they are for any other company who buys on a wholesale level. Of course the cost of labor will depend on the prices of the shop doing the work. Let's assume there's another $2k in parts. That leaves $9k in labor for this engine assembly.

Check with your favorite BMW shop on the cost of labor. I know one very experienced S65 shop that will build this engine for $2k labor costs.
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      02-25-2014, 12:46 PM   #14
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So you have a spread sheet for the fact you replace pistons for 2200 not sure spread needed.

What about the coating on cylinders that is lost? The low friction OEM coating? What is the option if you bore out engine ?
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      02-25-2014, 12:53 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by regular guy View Post
I don't need to explain why I have a spreadsheet with costs and part numbers. I'm also not going to post it here. I'll be happy to share with you in private. But before contacting me, I want you to think long and hard about how you talk to people who you're asking for favors.
The lack of civility on this board is tough to understand. I think it comes down to the fact that more and more, people don't understand how to communicate, and let themselves get shot out of a cannon for no reason.

regular guy is a tremendous resource. Treat him with the respect and civility that anyone would deserve.
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      02-25-2014, 02:58 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrStinky View Post
So you have a spread sheet for the fact you replace pistons for 2200 not sure spread needed.

What about the coating on cylinders that is lost? The low friction OEM coating? What is the option if you bore out engine ?
I guess I was hoping that you'd change the way you talk to people you're asking for favors. But lacking that, I was also hoping you'd do a little resarch on your own and maybe learn a little about the question you're asking -- to realize you're asking an irrelevant question. Either myself or any of the engine guys on the forum could answer your question at any time. The fact that nobody has answered might be a sign they don't want to. Just an observation...that's all.

Alucil isn't a coating, and it doesn't need to be reapplied when you bore/hone. I gave you that hint when I gave you a price for bore/honing and didn't mention anything about extra expenses for coatings. I order all my pistons from the same people BMW uses to make the OE pistons. If you tell them you're working with an Alucil block, they will give you the proper coating and proper rings.

By now, I've given you all the prices. If you add them all up, you will realize you can build the same motor with the same parts for $10k or less -- and that's even using Dinan as the machine shop to bore/hone the block. So do you still think $17k is a bargain when you can do it for $10k?
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      02-25-2014, 03:55 PM   #17
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Wow you really spend too much time with yourposts and manipulation. If you have a contribution post it. I ask cause iI font know. If you don't answer its OK.. plenty others to answer things. Lighten up
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      02-25-2014, 04:38 PM   #18
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Saw this article on Dinan and liked it.



http://www.stanceworks.com/2014/02/m...n-engineering/
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      02-25-2014, 10:20 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrStinky View Post
Wow you really spend too much time with yourposts and manipulation. If you have a contribution post it. I ask cause iI font know. If you don't answer its OK.. plenty others to answer things. Lighten up
I started by telling you that $17k was way too much for a bored stock motor, and I ended by telling you the same thing. You could have saved yourself all the trouble if you took me at my word. If there were plenty of others willing to help you, I didn't see them running here to help you with answers. So in spite of all your insulting comments, I was still the only person who would answer you. I wish you the best of luck getting those plenty of others to help you next time you need it.
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      02-25-2014, 11:16 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrStinky View Post
Wow you really spend too much time with yourposts and manipulation. If you have a contribution post it. I ask cause iI font know. If you don't answer its OK.. plenty others to answer things. Lighten up
Regular Guy probably does more beneficial volunteer work for the m3post technical community than anyone else on this board that I know. I think you are out of line in the way you are talking but it is also true that I also can only understand about half of what you write.

I don't know if you are not comfortable communicating in English or if you are just careless but you come across as hostile and very, very difficult to understand.

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      02-25-2014, 11:30 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by regular guy View Post
First separate the parts and the labor. Brushing aside volume discounting, the parts costs are the same for Dinan as they are for any other company who buys on a wholesale level. Of course the cost of labor will depend on the prices of the shop doing the work. Let's assume there's another $2k in parts. That leaves $9k in labor for this engine assembly.

Check with your favorite BMW shop on the cost of labor. I know one very experienced S65 shop that will build this engine for $2k labor costs.
Wow! So re-condition the motor for $4k total? That is a hell of a deal. Definitely worth doing if I keep the beast for the long, long term. I don't think the 0.2 L of additional displacement you'd get with Dinan would be enough to justify $12,000.

The thought of a reconditioned motor and a supercharger (or twin turbo) might be enough to stave off my lust for the F80 M3.

Last edited by Hujan; 02-25-2014 at 11:36 PM..
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      02-25-2014, 11:34 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEllis View Post
Saw this article on Dinan and liked it.



http://www.stanceworks.com/2014/02/m...n-engineering/
Thanks for posting, JEllis. Good read.
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