Horner in trouble at Red Bull

[Sneaky Pete]

Are today’s F1 cars easier to drive than those from previous eras?

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/f...;re%20at%20now.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by g21

i'm not sure if you were referring to that fateful day

Senna passed on because he asked the team to cut off and re-weld his steering rod to suit him

unfortunately the rod snapped while he was going at 200kph and he had no control over the car and the rest was history

the TP was prosecuted over this in the Italian court but was cleared

The answer from his technician should have been a definite and precise no and put up with the barage of swearing which no doubt would have come from Senna. His tech has the final say no matter what others would say.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

No driver in recent F1 history had a such a successful rookie year and not in terms of points scored but in terms of who he was driving against.

Trying to rewrite history to knock one of the best drivers in F1 shows a remarkable lack of understanding of F1 or just blind Verstappen fandom.

You're comparing apples and oranges.

In his rookie year Hamilton had arguably one of the best F1 cars on the grid at his disposal: the 2007 McLaren Mercedes:

2007: only 2 teams won all 17 races:

• Ferrari won 9 out of 17 races: 6 x Räikkönen + 3 x Massa | 3 DNFs | WCC P1 | WDC P1 (RAI) + P4 (MAS)
• McLaren won 8 out of 17 races: 4 x Alonso + 4 x Hamilton | 2 DNFs | WCC -- | WDC P2 (HAM) and P3 (ALO)

In his rookie year Verstappen had to settle for a subpar 2015 Toro Rosso Renault.

2015: only 2 teams won all 19 races: 16 x Mercedes + 3 x Ferrari:

• Toro Rosso (Verstappen + Sainz): not even a podium in 19 races | 12 DNFs | WCC P7 | WDC P12 (VER) and P15 (SAI)

Hamilton won the 2008 WDC with a McLaren Mercedes (Alonso had left McLaren for Renault).

Hamilton from 2009 to 2013: P5 2009 (McLaren), P4 2010 (McLaren), P5 2011 (McLaren), P4 2012 (McLaren) and P4 2013 (Mercedes).

From 2014 onwards the Mercedes W05 Hybrid rocket was vastly superior, annihilating the rest of the field - the rest is history:

• Rosberg without the Mercedes rocket: P17 2006 | P9 2007 | P13 2008 | P7 2009 | P7 2010 | P7 2011 | P9 2012 | P6 2013
• Rosberg with the Mercedes rocket: P2 2014 | P2 2015 | P1 2016
• Hamilton with the Mercedes rocket: P1 2014 | P1 2015 | P2 2016 | P1 2017 | P1 2018 | P1 2019 | P1 2020 | P2 2021

Hamilton from 2022 onwards, without the Mercedes rocket: P6 2022 and P3 2023.

Imagine Verstappen as rookie team mate of Rosberg or Hamilton in 2015 in the Mercedes W05 Hybrid rocket instead of a Toro Rosso: also P12 ?

Hamilton versus Alonso - Hungary 2007 qualies: some bickering: video here.

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

to knock one of the best drivers in F1

There were plenty of drivers in F1. Hamilton is one of the very best. Those passionate about F1 failing to acknowledge this, are delusional. Hamilton is currently in wintertime of his career (°1985). Verstappen (°1997) is still in summertime. Hopefully Hamilton's move to Ferrari in 2025 at the age of 40 won't be like Schumacher's comeback at the age of 41 at Mercedes (P9 2010 | P8 2011 | P12 2013).

As commented before, I'd like to see Verstappen move from currently arguably the best car on the grid (RB20) to a Mercedes-AMG car (W15), to show everyone what he can squeeze out of that car and that - also out of his comfort zone - he's worth his salt.

[Autobacs]

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

This post from Reddit saves me the trouble.

"The way people talk in this subreddit you would think Hamilton was testing McLaren f1 cars every week for the 10 odd years before 2007 since he first spoke to Ron Dennis as a child.
The fact is that he had his first real test here in September 2006 after winning the GP2 title(The test 2 years previously was for winning a young drivers award or something, BDRC or McLaren award, I forget)
Hamilton then did a normal amount of testing with De La Rosa in the 2006 spec car in winter testing(Alonso did one test in late 2006 in the 2006 spec McLaren car after Renault gave permission) but once 2007 arrived, Alonso tested the 2007 spec car first and did more overall testing than Hamilton in pre season testing as well as testing throughout the year.
Every single time people in here bring up Hamilton testing before his debut, they act like he did a million more testing days and laps than everybody else. Its simply not true"

On his second run at that Silverstone test he was already faster than their test driver PDeLaR.

And on McLaren favouring Hamilton...where do you guys get this nonsense.
McLaren were paying 2 time world champion big money to drive for them, why on earth would they favour the rookie driver.

No driver in recent F1 history had a such a successful rookie year and not in terms of points scored but in terms of who he was driving against.

Trying to rewrite history to knock one of the best drivers in F1 shows a remarkable lack of understanding of F1 or just blind Verstappen fandom.

Where did "only a handful of laps" go?

For the record, I consider LH one of the greats, same as Alonso. Yes, considering he was up against a 2 time WC, his performance was noteworthy.

What I find funny is when some LH fans use the words "destroyed" when talking about 2 drivers who finished with equal points.

As far as favoritism, yes, MCL did not favor LH over the 2 time champion, IN THE BEGINNING. But after Hungaroring, after the famous ALO blocking incident, precipitated by LH's blatant disregard of team orders on order of qualifying prompting ALO to block him, you can't state the same. Some LH fans focus only on the blocking incident. One can also make the argument that if LH had followed team orders in Hungary, it means no blocking incident, then ALO would not have been penalized and scored more points and won the WDC.

You don't need to embellish LH to make him look great.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Autobacs

As far as favoritism, yes, MCL did not favor LH over the 2 time champion, IN THE BEGINNING. But after Hungaroring, after the famous ALO blocking incident, precipitated by LH's blatant disregard of team orders on order of qualifying prompting ALO to block him, you can't state the same. Some LH fans focus only on the blocking incident. One can also make the argument that if LH had followed team orders in Hungary, it means no blocking incident, then ALO would not have been penalized and scored more points and won the WDC.
You don't need to embellish LH to make him look great.

Hamilton versus Alonso - Hungary 2007 qualies: some bickering: video here.

Hamilton also ignored clear team orders in the final 2016 Abu Dhabi race ordering him to speed up.

Hamilton tried to compromise Rosberg's WDC title chance (getting WDC title #1) for his own benefit (getting WDC title #4): Hamilton (P1) deliberately slowed down in sector 1 to back Rosberg (P2) up with Vettel (P3) and Verstappen (P4) breathing in Rosberg's neck. Hamilton hoped that Rosberg would crack under high pressure or get overtaken + subsequently Hamilton pulled away from Rosberg making it impossible for Rosberg to overtake him (over 1s = no DRS). Rosberg managed to stay ahead (and Vettel must have realized the mind game that Hamilton was playing with Rosberg).

Rosberg expressed that it was "extremely intense" especially with Verstappen nearby. Hamilton's comment: "What am I supposed to do? Just sit there and let the dude come win the championship? You know, I had to kind of try to help myself, because no-one else is helping me". No surprise that it later turned out to be Rosberg's last race of his F1 career.

It's a different context than Verstappen ignoring clear team orders to let Perez pass during the Brazil 2022 race.

2016 Abu Dhabi 2016 - WDC title deciding race:

• post race interview with Rosberg: here
• post race interview - Press conference: here
• post race interview with Hamilton: here
• race highlights: here
• final lap: here ("His team mate [Hamilton] hasn't played the team game")

EDIT: adding Mercedes team radio messages which appeared in the 2016 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix race coverage during the race (laps when the messages were broadcast):
Lap 10: Team to ROS: So they’re purposely making Verstappen slow. You need to get past him.
Lap 11: Team to ROS: So don’t take any risks with Verstappen. You’re doing the right thing.
Lap 12: Team to ROS: Looking after that front tyre, right-front tyre.
Lap 17: HAM to Team: There’s a lot of overall sliding on these tyres, particularly at the front.
Lap 18: Team to HAM: Tyre temps are cool front and rear, that’s where some of the sliding might come from. Just be careful we’re not going to grain them.
Lap 20: Team to ROS: So it’s critical now that we start passing Verstappen.
Lap 20: Team to ROS: OK so catch the back of Lewis, good job.
Lap 22: Team to ROS: So Nico next three more laps are critical. Verstappen is going to the end.
Lap 23: ROS to Team: How much am I pushing now?
Lap 23: Team to ROS: We’re just trying to get a gap behind.
Lap 23: ROS to Team: That doesn’t tell me anything.
Lap 26: ROS to Team: Losing time out of Turn 10 because of the overloads.
Lap 26: Team to ROS: OK but that’s safety-critical at the moment.
Lap 28: ROS to Team: How is my race looking?
Lap 28: Team to ROS: P2 is safe at the moment.
Lap 28: ROS to Team: That’s good to know.
Lap 28: Team to HAM: OK Lewis, box, box.
Lap 31: Team to ROS: So situation: 26 laps remaining, you’re going to the end. Verstappen is the car behind you, he’s also going to the end, he’s on 8-lap older tyres. So most important, look after that front.
Lap 32: Team to HAM: Question: Just wondering why you’re so slow? Currently unsafe to Vettel.
Lap 33: HAM to Team: How’s this pace?
Lap 33: Team to HAM: We’d be happy with a 45.3.
Lap 34: HAM to Team: Has everyone stopped?
Lap 34: Team to HAM: Negative, we have Vettel ahead, he’s yet to stop. 24-lap-old soft tyres.
Lap 34: HAM to Team: Only Vettel ahead, yeah?
Lap 34: Team to HAM: Affirm. And he’s just inside our Safety Car window.
Lap 35: HAM to Team: What position am I in?
Lap 35: Team to HAM: Currently P2. So need more management Turn 2, less in [Turn] 3.
Lap 35: ROS to Team: Pace is very slow again. Not great for a late Safety Car.
Lap 36: HAM to Team: Is Vettel one-stopping?
Lap 36: Team to HAM: We don’t believe so Lewis. But he may be a threat later in the race if he takes the super-soft.
Lap 42: HAM to Team: Blue flag, haven’t seen no blue flags today. You need to give me the times of other cars, please.
Lap 42: Team to HAM: Red Bulls 45.9. The threat is from Vettel, he’s currently 44.6, coming through the field.
Lap 44: Team to HAM: OK Lewis, [you] really need to pick up the pace. Need high 44s. Vettel imminent threat.
Lap 46: ROS to Team: This is really slow pace so maybe at some point invert the cars and if by the end of the race Lewis is still second I’ll let him by again. I know that’s a really stupid request but this is really slow at the moment. He’s doing exactly… he’s quick in Sector 1 so it’s difficult for me.
Lap 47: Team to HAM: OK Lewis, this is an instruction. We need 45.1 for the win.
Lap 47: HAM to Team: I suggest you guys let us race.
Lap 49: Team to ROS: Seven laps remaining. Gap to Verstappen 1.5. He [Hamilton]’s obviously backing you up.
Lap 49: ROS to Team: Consider doing something. I can go so much quicker.
Lap 49: Team to ROS: Yeah, copy that.
Lap 51: Team to HAM: Lewis, this is Paddy [Paddy Lowe]. We need you to pick up the pace to win this race. That is an instruction.
Lap 51: HAM to Team: Paddy, I am actually in the lead right now. I’m quite comfortable here.
Lap 52: Team to ROS: OK so four laps remaining. Remember we can afford P3, we can’t afford damage, so just be cautious with Vettel.
Lap 54: Team to HAM: Lewis we need to target the 45s if we’re going to win this.
Lap 54: HAM to Team: Right now I’m losing the world championship, so I’m really not bothered to win or lose this race.
Lap 55: Team to ROS: So this is the last lap. Try and get within DRS of Lewis. Remember you only need P3.
Victory lap: Team to ROS: Yes! World Champion! [Censored by FOM] brilliant!
Victory lap: Team to ROS: Nico you are World Champion!
Victory lap: ROS to Team: Thank you so much guys. That’s a childhood dream come true. Thank you so much,
Victory lap: Wife to ROS: Amazing job. I’m so proud of you, you’ve done amazing! Woohoo!
Victory lap: ROS to wife: We did it, we did it!

[G30M]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

The answer from his technician should have been a definite and precise no and put up with the barage of swearing which no doubt would have come from Senna. His tech has the final say no matter what others would say.

the tech escalated to the Team Principal who said yes. as far as I'm aware the rules at the time deemed that modification illegal.

anyway, if they didn't do that Senna wouldn't have died.

but you can't change the past.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by g21

the tech escalated to the Team Principal who said yes. as far as I'm aware the rules at the time deemed that modification illegal.

anyway, if they didn't do that Senna wouldn't have died.

but you can't change the past.

His 30 year death anniversary is coming up.

[NickyC]

Alonso never looked right to me in a McLaren during his first stint. He went from tan with long hair, to short hair and pale. He just didn't look himself while at that outfit, like he had lost his mojo.

[MontyB1]

Originally Posted by NickyC

Alonso never looked right to me in a McLaren during his first stint. He went from tan with long hair, to short hair and pale. He just didn't look himself while at that outfit, like he had lost his mojo.

It was the colour draining out of his face when a new upstart that looked liked they would be good turned out to be even better than expected and was matching and beating his times, rarely happens but it was.

[G30M]

well Australian GP is upon us, i guess Dutch papers were wrong again?

[///MPhatic]

43 pages of this.

I don't care what happens, I would just like it to happen. lol

[Artemis]

Johnny Herbert claims to have heard that Verstappen is close to a Mercedes deal for 2025.

"Max Verstappen 'close to Mercedes deal' reveals F1 legend as he slams Red Bull for 'stupid' decision"
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/26797...d-bull-horner/

Herbert: "Red Bull who's got the best driver in the world at the present time and they're very close to pushing him out of the team as well. And I've heard that it's getting quite close with a deal with Mercedes. And that seems to be a stupid thing to do: you wanna keep your biggest asset. Your biggest asset is not the Christian Horner Show. Your biggest asset is Max Verstappen - that's where all these world championships have come from. It would be crazy that Max left because of this situation that's there. Jos has said it could be very destructive and rip it apart. And I think it's gone on for far too long and in some respect Christian should really think about it and actually step aside."

[Marcoose]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Johnny Herbert claims to have heard that Verstappen is close to a Mercedes deal for 2025.

Money. Big Money. And I wouldn't blame Verstappen. He's only 26. Even if Mercedes suck donkey balls for the next 6 years, like RBR did, eventually they'll bounce back, like RBR did. And unless a new regulation hurts his driving style, he's guaranteed to bounce back to the front of the grid, like Alonso. Does Newey come along too ?

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Marcoose

Money. Big Money. And I wouldn't blame Verstappen. He's only 26. Even if Mercedes suck donkey balls for the next 6 years, like RBR did, eventually they'll bounce back, like RBR did. And unless a new regulation hurts his driving style, he's guaranteed to bounce back to the front of the grid, like Alonso. Does Newey come along too ?

"Ferrari Ready to Give Adrian Newey a ‘Blank Check’; Bend Backwards to Get Red Bull Legend in Red"
https://www.essentiallysports.com/f1...legend-in-red/
"Ferrari is hell-bent on securing the services of Adrian Newey, even if they have to write a ‘blank check’ for his financial incentives and give him complete freedom to work the way he wants as reported by FUnoAnalisiTecnica."

"Ferrari prepara l’offensiva: Newey obiettivo reale del top management di Maranello"
["Ferrari prepares offensive: Newey real target of Maranello's top management"]
https://www.funoanalisitecnica.com/2...-red-bull.html
Translation from Italian:
"Thinking about the current chaos at Red Bull, let alone how a man of such character [Adrian Newey] is experiencing this witch-hunt atmosphere, in the very team in which he had found his perfect dimension. This is precisely the moment when the undisputed number one designer could complete his superlative career, combining his career path with the legendary Maranello team that from next year will have another motorsport legend at the wheel, who answers to the name of Lewis Hamilton.
Frédéric Vasseur and the top management certainly don't need any suggestions, but to seduce Adrian Newey and hit the jackpot, the Briton must be granted a degree of freedom that will put the 65-year-old at ease and allow him to express all his genius. Assumptions that convinced him to leave an F1 excellency like McLaren to accept what at the time seemed to be just a good marketing operation called Red Bull.
According to information gathered by our editorial staff [FUnoAnalisiTecnica], Ferrari is trying hard. An opportunity like this cannot go to waste and, as far as we know, in addition to the symbolic blank cheque as far as salary is concerned, the Prancing Horse would be ready to meet Newey's wishes in full. All this thanks to the 'international' management of John Elkann who, although he never misses an opportunity to demonstrate how little he knows about F1 at a sporting level, from an entrepreneurial point of view he really knows his stuff. In short... Newey-Ferrari: it's now or never."

[Marcoose]

Originally Posted by Artemis

"Ferrari Ready to Give Adrian Newey a ‘Blank Check’; Bend Backwards to Get Red Bull Legend in Red"

For a blank cheque, I'd sell my mum and her soul.

It may be what it takes for Ferrari to finally win. They had two great drivers, two good cars, and what, 4-5 managers ? Hamilton is a great driver, but that alone may not be sufficient. 2025 is lining up to be an epic season.

[Steeler]

Newcedes or Newari.

Place yer bets.

[Autobacs]

Originally Posted by Artemis

"Ferrari Ready to Give Adrian Newey a ‘Blank Check’; Bend Backwards to Get Red Bull Legend in Red"
https://www.essentiallysports.com/f1...legend-in-red/
"Ferrari is hell-bent on securing the services of Adrian Newey, even if they have to write a ‘blank check’ for his financial incentives and give him complete freedom to work the way he wants as reported by FUnoAnalisiTecnica."

"Ferrari prepara l’offensiva: Newey obiettivo reale del top management di Maranello"
["Ferrari prepares offensive: Newey real target of Maranello's top management"]
https://www.funoanalisitecnica.com/2...-red-bull.html
Translation from Italian:
"Thinking about the current chaos at Red Bull, let alone how a man of such character [Adrian Newey] is experiencing this witch-hunt atmosphere, in the very team in which he had found his perfect dimension. This is precisely the moment when the undisputed number one designer could complete his superlative career, combining his career path with the legendary Maranello team that from next year will have another motorsport legend at the wheel, who answers to the name of Lewis Hamilton.
Frédéric Vasseur and the top management certainly don't need any suggestions, but to seduce Adrian Newey and hit the jackpot, the Briton must be granted a degree of freedom that will put the 65-year-old at ease and allow him to express all his genius. Assumptions that convinced him to leave an F1 excellency like McLaren to accept what at the time seemed to be just a good marketing operation called Red Bull.
According to information gathered by our editorial staff [FUnoAnalisiTecnica], Ferrari is trying hard. An opportunity like this cannot go to waste and, as far as we know, in addition to the symbolic blank cheque as far as salary is concerned, the Prancing Horse would be ready to meet Newey's wishes in full. All this thanks to the 'international' management of John Elkann who, although he never misses an opportunity to demonstrate how little he knows about F1 at a sporting level, from an entrepreneurial point of view he really knows his stuff. In short... Newey-Ferrari: it's now or never."

Ferrari's tried throwing a ton of money at Newey since time immemorial. All going to depend if his previous reservations about joining Ferrari, with their unique way of running things, is still there.

[Autobacs]

If Verstappen leaves then, all bets are off if Newey will stay or leave. If he stays then perhaps his lament about not having had the opportunity to work with Alonso maybe fulfilled.

[Davil]

ARAMCO EYE ASTON MARTIN TAKEOVER, TARGET VERSTAPPEN AND NEWEY

They analysed the feasibility of making certain moves and gave blank checks for future engagements in due course.

In this context, Red Bull’s heavyweights are in their sights. These include the triple world champion Max Verstappen and engineering genius Adrian Newey. The fact these two are seen as feasible targets shows how much has changed in recent months.

Formula 1’s budget cap excludes the salaries of the three most senior figures in the team – and, of course, the drivers as well.

Aston Martin is collectively valued at over £1 billion. They have more than enough resources to offer adequate financial incentives to such big names. In 2022, meanwhile, Aramco became the largest company in the world by market capitalization.

https://formu1a.uno/aramco-eye-aston...pen-and-newey/

[G30M]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Johnny Herbert claims to have heard that Verstappen is close to a Mercedes deal for 2025.

Johny is Dutch too? didn't know that!

(meaning i'll believe it when i see it)

[G30M]

Originally Posted by Steeler

Newcedes or Newari.

Place yer bets.

Haas

(ie i'll believe it when i see it)

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Steeler

Newcedes or Newari.

Place yer bets.

Ferrawey.