BMW M3 vs Porsche Carrera which is Quicker

[footie]

Originally Posted by Robin Hood

That's no argument footie, come on you can do better than that. Didn't you see the

Or whenever you feel tackled yourself you take the '' smiley to show how grownup and smart you are, is that it?

LOL sometimes you are(GTR vs GT2 thread i.e)

and another

I just prefer to debate the subject matter and keep things more grown up. I know I probably come across as big headed and a smart arse but on most subjects that I chose to discuss I generally know quite a bit about them or occasionally know more than I let on........cough cough GTS.

[SUB-ZERO]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Actually I love the 330 zhp...my sister has one and its an awesome car. Exhaust note sounds better than the raspy m3 stock exhaust note and the alcantara inside is great.



Actually, no...just bashing back since you are very misinformed that the Cayman/Boxster are 'girls' cars.

And I actually love my Z4M's, from the styling to the way it drives and sounds. Probably would rate it a close tie with the Cayman S, but the cayman S still handles and has better feel, but again its close.

DarkStarZero has a 2007 or 2008 Z4M coupe and two weeks ago we had another Mid-Atlantic M3 Owners drive through the the luray/Skyline area and I could barely keep up with him on the twisities. His Z4M was on rails....I was so impressed that I may just pick one up. You can get them for about $30k now and they are a lot of fun.

-SZ

[footie]

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

DarkStarZero has a 2007 or 2008 Z4M coupe and two weeks ago we had another Mid-Atlantic M3 Owners drive through the the luray/Skyline area and I could barely keep up with him on the twisities. His Z4M was on rails....I was so impressed that I may just pick one up. You can get them for about $30k now and they are a lot of fun.

-SZ

The Z4M is incredible when driven on relatively smooth roads but my experience of them on UK back roads were that they can be a bit of a handful.

[Robin_NL]

I think the Z4M has TOO MUCH traction to have fun with in the first place(dry roads), and the interior is a bit claustrofobic.

I drove one for a weekend. And those things prevented me from buying one.

All things are IMHO!

[footie]

Originally Posted by Robin Hood

I think the Z4M has TOO MUCH traction to have fun with in the first place(dry roads), and the interior is a bit claustrofobic.

I drove one for a weekend. And those things prevented me from buying one.

All things are IMHO!

For all it's failings I actually prefer the new one much better and if I was in the market for such a car would seriously consider it.

[graider]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Actually I love the 330 zhp...my sister has one and its an awesome car. Exhaust note sounds better than the raspy m3 stock exhaust note and the alcantara inside is great.



Actually, no...just bashing back since you are very misinformed that the Cayman/Boxster are 'girls' cars.

And I actually love my Z4M's, from the styling to the way it drives and sounds. Probably would rate it a close tie with the Cayman S, but the cayman S still handles and has better feel, but again its close.

cayman/boxter are girls' cars from the look point of view which you can clearly see many posters on here have the same opinion as mine. There is nothing misinformed about it.

[Brianrg]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Cayman S faster than an M3? LOL what world do you guys live in.
Of the 20 odd tracks that both cars have set a time the M3 was faster at all but 4...The Cayman is a nice enough car for a girl but seriously....
(fastestlaps.com)

Agreed!

[footie]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Cayman S faster than an M3? LOL what world do you guys live in.
Of the 20 odd tracks that both cars have set a time the M3 was faster at all but 4...The Cayman is a nice enough car for a girl but seriously....
(fastestlaps.com)

You are comparing the older MK1 Cayman and not the new Mk2 which is dramatically quicker than the previous one. I bet when it gets tested by mags over the next 12 months you will find that your previous comparison will prove to be the reverse where it's the Cayman with the majority of the better times.

If people view it as a girl's car then I would quite happily wear a skirt and paint my nails. But seriously all small coupes/roadsters appear to be viewed this way and no amount of butching up will change their opinion of them.

[graider]

Originally Posted by footie

You are comparing the older MK1 Cayman and not the new Mk2 which is dramatically quicker than the previous one. I bet when it gets tested by mags over the next 12 months you will find that your previous comparison will prove to be the reverse where it's the Cayman with the majority of the better times.

If people view it as a girl's car then I would quite happily wear a skirt and paint my nails. But seriously all small coupes/roadsters appear to be viewed this way and no amount of butching up will change their opinion of them.

but then the next m3 will spank it. you are compare the m3 that came out in 07 in europe to the new cayman in 2009. the 06 cayman and 07 m3 came out at about the same time. I think that is more accurate comparsion. the cycle will just keep repeating IMO.

wrong. z4m coupe, 350z, z06, none looks like chicks' cars. cayman/boxters are.

I would mind you wearing skirt and paint your nails, LOL

[warzilla]

Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO

Can't we all just get along

Here is my official opinion:

1. I love Porsche and would love to have a 911TT, GT2 or GT3

2. e92 M3 > Boxster, Boxster S, Cayman, Cayman S

3. e92 M3 <= 911

4. e92 M3 < 911S

5. e92 M3 < 911TT, GT2, GT3

Solution:

Have both an M3 and a GT3 in the garage.

-SZ

Sub-Zero, I'm pretty much in agreement with you. I may say the e92 M3 >= 911 but thats nit-picking. Again, both are great cars and I can't wait to add a 997 to the garage with the M3. Maybe next spring.

As for shift@red, can we please stop the 'Cayman S is the best blah-blah-blah' already. I got it already - the Cayman S is the best fill-in-the-blank you ever had. Yes we know your view: Porsche the best / BMW not the best.

I got it already.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by footie

You are comparing the older MK1 Cayman and not the new Mk2 which is dramatically quicker than the previous one. I bet when it gets tested by mags over the next 12 months you will find that your previous comparison will prove to be the reverse where it's the Cayman with the majority of the better times.

There are times for the 315hp 2008 facelift PDK Cayman S and its still slower both in track times (loses 6 a out of 8 and draws 1) and is over 2 secs slower to 200kph than the manual E92 M3 so no its still most definitely slower.

[murellus]

this is the biggest fanboy-war-post ever

[BimmerBoomer]

Originally Posted by murellus

this is the biggest fanboy-war-post ever

Either that or the biggest steaming pile of fanboy exhaust ever.

[photogS]

Originally Posted by murellus

this is the biggest fanboy-war-post ever

yeah, I got disgusted by fanboism/immaturity of some members and decided not to participate any longer.
carry on...

[footie]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

There are times for the 315hp 2008 facelift PDK Cayman S and its still slower both in track times (loses 6 a out of 8 and draws 1) and is over 2 secs slower to 200kph than the manual E92 M3 so no its still most definitely slower.

Nordschleife 8:05 8:06
Tsukuba 1:05.817 1:08.077 (semi wet)
Hockenheim Short 1:14.3 1:13.9
Laguna Seca 1:42.964 1:43.0
Autozeitung test track 1:40.1 1:40.6
Contidrom 1:35.41 1:36.52 (ESP on)
Rockingham 1:25.58 1:37.07 (wet)
Anglesey National 1:03.8 1:04.1

1655kgs 1450kgs
420hp 320hp

I thought I should include other factors that need to be heard before dismissing the Cayman. The M3 has 3.94Kg/HP compared to the Cayman's 4.53Kg/HP, that's an advantage of 15% which as you showed dramatically improves the M3's straight line acceleration, and yet in almost all the tests it's only splitting hairs between them on the track. The very fact that it was only 1 seconds slower around the N-ring proves how much better it is at cornering and coping with the bumpy conditions of normal roads. I dismissed the times in red mainly because of either differing track conditions or as in one case the ESP was left on.

I also would like to add that I only know for sure that the Sportauto times for Hockenheim and N-ring were conducted with a Cayman S equipped with both PDK and LSD.

But none of this proves anything other than the Cayman even with a serious performance disadvantage can lap equally as quick, proving the point that else where on the lap other than in acceleration the Cayman is superior.

[footie]

Originally Posted by murellus

this is the biggest fanboy-war-post ever

I don't agree that it's fanboy stuff, well not in my case, I think it's more a battle of wit and knowledge.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by footie

But none of this proves anything other than the Cayman even with a serious performance disadvantage can lap equally as quick, proving the point that else where on the lap other than in acceleration the Cayman is superior.

Whats more impressive is how quickly the M3 can lap...you'd expect the Cayman a lightweight mid engined two seater set up to handle as its prime objective to give good laptimes, thats the price of all its other major compromises...the M3 on the other hand is barely compromised at all yet laps quicker than the latest Cayman S, the latest facelift 997 and is barely slower than the fastest gen 2 997 S.
The fact than you can actually compare an M3 with the 997.2 S shows what a performance bargain the M3 is...or that Porsche seriously need to up their game.

[murellus]

one thing the cayman has over the m3...i've been getting over 30mpg (30.7) on my long highway commutes in my gayman s.

[footie]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Whats more impressive is how quickly the M3 can lap...you'd expect the Cayman a lightweight mid engined two seater set up to handle as its prime objective to give good laptimes, thats the price of all its other major compromises...the M3 on the other hand is barely compromised at all yet laps quicker than the latest Cayman S, the latest facelift 997 and is barely slower than the fastest gen 2 997 S.
The fact than you can actually compare an M3 with the 997.2 S shows what a performance bargain the M3 is...or that Porsche seriously need to up their game.

Never once have I run down the achievements that BMW have made regarding the M3, it is an exceptional car all things considered. Weight plays it's card in directional changes which the Cayman should be a little better than the M3 at this, but then BMW counter this with it's 50/50 weight balance. As a performance bargain the M3 is probably one of the best, only the GTR springs to mind as being that much better. Regarding the compromises being made toward the M3 in platform, that shows just how great an achievement BMW made but at the same time Porsche are compromising the Cayman, holding it back from greatness because of the 997, I have discussed at length my opinion that Porsche should let the Cayman fulfill it's potential because if given the same power then it would be the best everyday sportscar made.

P.S.
Regarding the other times and the comparisons between the Cayman and 997C2S to that of the M3, you also seriously need to keep in mind that on the one true track which bares more than just a slight similarity to a proper road (N-ring) the two Porsche cars excel, when you consider the length of the straights that this course has and the advantage the M3 has in acceleration compared to the Cayman it puts into perspective just how superior the Cayman is else where on the track.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by footie

Regarding the other times and the comparisons between the Cayman and 997C2S to that of the M3, you also seriously need to keep in mind that on the one true track which bares more than just a slight similarity to a proper road (N-ring) the two Porsche cars excel, when you consider the length of the straights that this course has and the advantage the M3 has in acceleration compared to the Cayman it puts into perspective just how superior the Cayman is else where on the track.

It used to be that you could place a reasonable amount of confidence in the Nring times but now that a good time has become such a marketing issue, any laptime now has to be put in context by looking at times at other tracks. Its no coincidence that Porsche has good Nring times given the amount of R&D they put in to achieving them. Its also worth noting that the 997.2 S (with PDK, manual is 8 secs slower apparently) got its 7.50 time on the same Michelin cup tyres that BMW used on the M3CSL (which had an identical time of 7:50).

[GPRAbmw]

Ok. So here's my take. You guys are taking BMW's best car, the M3, which is the best handling and most nimble car they make. Not the fastest in a straight, but not too far off.
Now, youre comparing it to Porsche's entry level 911, which is cant even beat. Sure it may be a driver's race in a straight, but the M3 doesnt have the grip, feel, or track prowess the 911 has. The M3 won't ever be able to compete with cars like the 911 Turbo, GT3/GT3RS or GT2, those cars are in a whole other game.
As for a CaymanS, and Boxster S (since they're almost one), the M3 may be faster in a straight line, but IMO just take touch the fact that the Cayman & Boxster are some of the best handling cars out there, and again, are Porsche's lowest offerings in the whole sports car line. I mean, the CaymanS did win BEST DRIVER'S car two years in a row, and beat out the R8, which is also quite the drivers car as well as a few other few notworthy cars, and something the M3 couldnt have won, if you ask me.
Now, its funny, because most of the E9X M3 guys would probably say 'I would take the M3 over a GTR'. Well, fact is, the GTR spanks the M3 up and down, but the M3 would be argued to still have more feel and be more fun. Well thats what the Cayman/Boxster are, just flat out more fun IMHO and have a much more connected feel that becomes near one with the driver.

Senorfunkypants:

Your arguement about track times is very flawed.

You say the 997S isnt much faster than an M3 on the track, yet the 997S is significantly faster on every single track. Heres the fastest laps comparo:

Nordschleife 8:05 7:50
Tsukuba 1:05.817 1:05.350
Hockenheim Short 1:14.3 1:13.4
Vairano Handling Course 1:20.910 1:18.048
Autozeitung test track 1:40.1 1:39.1
Balocco 2:56.51 2:55.51
SportAuto wet handling test 1:32.4 1:30.5
Camden Airport 1:13.40 1:11.69
Anglesey National 1:03.8 1:03.2
Circuit de Nevers Magny-Cours 1:27.40 (19"rims) 1:24.57

Im not sure if youre a tracker or not, but a 2 second lead on a lap that is only a minute and thirty seconds is a major difference.
And most of the leads the 997S has are very big. 15 seconds on the "Ring, and various multi-second leads on nearly all other tracks. Both car were done with Cup+ tires. The M3 CSL time you mention was done on Pilot Sports Cups, not Cup+ tires. The former are much more grippy and better for the track.

Now, you say that the M3 is much faster than a Cayman S PDK, yet the leads the M3 has over the Cayman S are not nearly as big as those the 997S has over the M3.

Nordschleife 8:05 8:06
Tsukuba 1:05.817 1:08.077 (semi wet)
Hockenheim Short 1:14.3 1:13.9
Laguna Seca 1:42.964 1:43.0
Autozeitung test track 1:40.1 1:40.6
Contidrom 1:35.41 1:36.52 (ESP on)
Rockingham 1:25.58 1:37.07 (wet)
Anglesey National 1:03.8 1:04.1

Not only that, the m3 has a better power to weight ratio than the cayman S has.


So how is it that the 997S isnt that much faster than the M3, in your words, but the M3 is much faster than a Cayman S when the Cayman S comes very close on a lot of tracks, and is even faster on some??

[footie]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

It used to be that you could place a reasonable amount of confidence in the Nring times but now that a good time has become such a marketing issue, any laptime now has to be put in context by looking at times at other tracks. Its no coincidence that Porsche has good Nring times given the amount of R&D they put in to achieving them. Its also worth noting that the 997.2 S (with PDK, manual is 8 secs slower apparently) got its 7.50 time on the same Michelin cup tyres that BMW used on the M3CSL (which had an identical time of 7:50).

I understand fully what you are saying and you are quite right about the ring, but the reason Porsche do SO MUCH testing at the ring is that it's SO SIMILAR to normal back roads which is quite the opposite to almost every other race track. Frankly I couldn't give a shit what a car did on most tracks as I generally don't drive my cars there so what I find relevant is their abilities on the road, that's what truly is important. BTW BWM also spend a sizable amount of time testing at the N-ring, so it's not only Porsche.

The time achieved by the 997.2 S was not with the original CUP tyres but the newer and slightly less grippy CUP+. This was the same rubber that the M3's time was achieved with, likewise it was also equipped with adaptive suspension (same as the M3 did) and LSD (also on the M3).

All we are confirming here is that we both agree that the M3 is great and the Porsche is a bit quicker, both things that I have already said and continue to say.