No 6MT on F10. And M5 only in Europe (if at all). Is M3's future the same?

[FruitCake]

damn since when did BMW drivers know anything about driving?

On a more serious note, since when does shifting gears require some serious skills?

After about my 5-6th track day, heel/toe becomes 2nd nature and I don't even notice it anymore??

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

Maybe, then you need to keep your opinions to yourself by attacking my credibility when you cannot prove all the awesome skills required to tug on two paddles.

I wasn't talking about pulling paddles though. I was talking about your ridiculous statement:

"There are absolute minimal skills required to race a DCT."

Doesn't matter what how you end the statement there, DCT, manual, CVT, auto, whatever. It's flat our lying, and you are well aware of that, sir.

Sorry about your addiction. I guess exaggeration is a must when you feel so inferior on this forum, and also have no logical basis for the claims you make.

[FruitCake]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

Sorry my mistake. I have driven a few DCT cars and automatics while owning 6 speed manual. I am missing a whole bunch here. Sorry if you feel offended that I disregarded the awesome 'skeelz' required to "use your fingertips with the proper angle and trajectory to pull the paddles for upshift and downshifts" and to hold the gear stick forward and release as soon as you want to launch the car. My bad. That requires a lot of skeelz and my ludicrous claims that it is dimunitive compared to frantically using all four limbs with precision and speed of execution for extracting the most out of the car or modulating the throttle and clutch at the sametime to control wheelspin while steering at the sametime for launching. That ain't no skills.

I am the stupid one here with zero credibility who fails to see where the skills are to pull two paddles with fingertips?? Simple math here: all four limbs vs two finger tips. What requires more coordination and timing. Really?? I most likely never ever will until I decide to deemphasize the importance and possibly switch to an automatic for other important reasons such as, convenience and ease of driving in traffic.

the fact that you mention "coordination and timing" just proves you can't drive.
Ask any decently experienced driver, and not a fanboy who thinks "its a drivers race", and they won't tell you they would have got a faster lap time if they "heel toe into this corner better".

you seriously sound ridiculous and digging yourself deeper IMO

i can pretty much reassure you don't know the first thing about car control

[jworms]

Originally Posted by smmmurf

Sure, if you think DCT can be equally enjoyable on one of the driving situations that you identify, then it fills the role.

that's where this aspect of the conversation should have ended. there is no debate on this and there can never be be any.

Originally Posted by smmmurf

I think it's pretty much expected that every time you write a post on a forum, you are expressing your opinion. Your opinion about my posts attempting to construe my opinion as facts and not opinions is also an opinion. I don't have to say "I think that" before everything I say. I think everything I've said is an opinion. It is also my opinion that my opinion reflects accurately the opinions of other manual drivers. But all of those are still just opinions.

actually, i think forums are for just the opposite. in my experience, it has usually been providing factual information for everyone to learn from, or debate with other factual information. i despise arguments based solely on opinion because there is no answer no matter how long you discuss it and it is pointless. it all comes down to personal preference for whatever reason you choose and nobody can take that away from you. additionally, no single opinion covers everyone and it never should be construed as such.

Originally Posted by smmmurf

Manual and DCT arguments always end up being circular like this because there is no real answer besides what you decide to buy. The people who have purchased manuals have spoken for the relevance of a 6MT amid a supposedly "superior" performing DCT gearbox.

totally agree. because of this, there can't be a valid argument on this aspect of the transmissions. however, there can be on the facts about both...

Originally Posted by smmmurf

In the end, all we are left with are facts... There's a gearbox that is more involving and a gearbox that is less involving. One is more traditional and thus susceptible to driver error and the other is computer-controlled, can potentially be "faster," and has be empirically known to require more servicing attention due to defects, improper servicing (1200 mile service 6MT fluid fiasco), software updates, etc. It comes down to preference... I think I made this point really clear. Sometimes, the preference for convenience of an automatic make people compromise their involvement... for that the ///Moneymakers over at BMW invented the DCT. Oh, and it also exists for those who have more fun when doing less, or accelerating slightly faster. There will always be those who pay more to get one less pedal and 44 lbs. of extra ballast attached to an already very heavy car. There are many reasons to prefer the 6MT just as there are reasons to prefer the DCT.

I think sometimes I should have ordered the DCT so that my parents or my girlfriend could experience the pleasure of driving an M car. But other than that, I think the manual is the way to go. So I decided not to make the compromise.

this should have been your stance the whole time.

now, for the purposes of this specific discussion, if we could just get away from the whole "maintenance/bugs/outlier scenarios" in DCT we might be able to figure out what BMW will probably do in the future. again, you can't look at the specific intricacies of the current DCT system; you must look at it from a higher level, for what it stands for and what it does. with the leaps and bounds BMW (and other manufacturers) have made with DCT setups, these supposed issues surely won't exist in the future. that is what this thread was about from the start and is how it should be treated going forward.

it would be interesting to see a list of the benefits/downfalls for both systems...without opinion backed argument. i have not compiled such a list, but i'd be willing to bet on DCT setups coming out on top in that comparison.

[330CIZHP]

No I am not digging myself in any hole whatsoever. You don't know the first thing about me, so you judging my driving skills is completely nonsense. Let alone the fact that I autoX regularly and sometimes go road coursing as well. I am not a seasoned track driver, but I am better than most drivers here who rarely go to the track and can do heel-toe and rev matches like second nature. Yes, rev-matching will steel more time from the driver because of how much physical movement and technique (exactly 7 steps required: push clutch in, put foot on the brake, apply brake and twist ankle to blip the throttle, shift down, release clutch, put right foot back on gas) is required compared to flicking a pair paddles with fingertips. That is always going to take more time compared to the same driver pressing the brake and flicking a paddle to downshift. It is simple common sense.

Funny how you guys try and dissect words to twist the meanings of what I said. With all due respect, I am not knocking on anyone'e decision to buy an M-DCT over 6MT. It is more about in relative terms, they both have their own pros. It is more than crystal clear, with a manual the driver is more involved in the whole process compared to M-DCT/Automatics etc. at the cost of being limited only by his own abilities to drive the car at its limits as fast as possible. For one, all things being equal, the ONLY reason with equal drivers a DCT will run quicker than manual transmission (despite having a higher drivetrain loss and 60 pounds heavier weight) is because a computer can upshift, downshift, launch much more perfectly than a human can do. Thus reducing the amount of effort, time and technique the driver has to use to execute exactly the same steps.

The whole debate is about the driver driving the car. Not the other way around. Where does that end? I am sure one day by putting two electrodes on the temples connected to a car ECU that can do all the work without any physical limb movements required from the driver will yield better laptimes than any human could possibly run. Does that automatically qualify for a much superior performer than any car that requires drivers to steer to say the least?

Originally Posted by FruitCake

the fact that you mention "coordination and timing" just proves you can't drive.
Ask any decently experienced driver, and not a fanboy who thinks "its a drivers race", and they won't tell you they would have got a faster lap time if they "heel toe into this corner better".

you seriously sound ridiculous and digging yourself deeper IMO

i can pretty much reassure you don't know the first thing about car control

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Yes it can actually. Simply quickly pull the lever multiple times and it will skip the intermediate gears. If you do this, it does not engage any shift collars until you stop pulling paddles.

So how can it tell whether you are pulling the lever the first time for a quick gear change or that you will be pulling it again because you didn't really want to change to that gear but instead the one after it. Either it has to automatically shift to the gear you select or it has to think about it and wait to see if you really wanted to upshift or downshift two gears and therefore cause DCT lag. Are you saying if I quickly pulled the downshift twice and then the upshift twice and then the downshift once again that it would only actually only down shift the gear once? I didn't know that, but it makes it clearer why the lag exists in that the computer has to wait on inputs to try and determine what you as the driver really wants to do. These are not issues in a 6MT.

[FruitCake]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

No I am not digging myself in any hole whatsoever. You don't know the first thing about me, so you judging my driving skills is completely nonsense. Let alone the fact that I autoX regularly and sometimes go road coursing as well. I am not a seasoned track driver, but I am better than most drivers here who rarely go to the track and can do heel-toe and rev matches like second nature. Yes, rev-matching will steel more time from the driver because of how much physical movement and technique (exactly 7 steps required: push clutch in, put foot on the brake, apply brake and twist ankle to blip the throttle, shift down, release clutch, put right foot back on gas) is required compared to flicking a pair paddles with fingertips. That is always going to take more time compared to the same driver pressing the brake and flicking a paddle to downshift. It is simple common sense.

Funny how you guys try and dissect words to twist the meanings of what I said. For one, all things being equal, the ONLY reason with equal drivers a DCT will run quicker than manual transmission (despite having a higher drivetrain loss and 60 pounds heavier weight) is because a computer can upshift, downshift, launch much more perfectly than a human can do. Thus reducing the amount of effort, time and technique the driver has to use to execute exactly the same steps.

The whole debate is about the driver driving the car. Not the other way around. Where does that end? I am sure one day by putting two electrodes on the temples connected to a car ECU that can do all the work without any physical limb movements required from the driver will yield better laptimes than any human could possibly run, which automatically qualifies for a much superior performer than any car that requires drivers to steer to say the least.

ur argument is about is good as ABS killing the braking feel of a car
i have never heard complaints like your EVER, talking to seasoned drivers and the biggest junkies out there, only from fanboys who says dumb shit like "no 6mt no care"

They are as hypocritical as buying a newer more computer aided version of anything. Why have ABS? why can't u modulate the braking feel yourself? Why even have power assisted steering? Drive-by-wire throttle?
I came from a 6sp M3 and I got DCT this time around because the 6sp M3 was my first car, and the car i learned stick from, and the car I tracked more times in a year than most people will in a life time. I am simply acknowledging a progression in technology.

[Kyoshi71]

Originally Posted by elp_jc

Just curious. I know the 5 series is a sedan, and a more luxurious vehicle, therefore a lot less buyers chose a manual. But the reality is it takes a certain number of cars to make production feasible, and I'm curious if the next M3 will meet that.

I personally don't care since I won't spend M3 money on an automatic or FI car, no matter how powerful, quick, fast, and good it might be, but am curious since other automakers could start following suit. Ferrari also announced no more 6MTs (didn't read starting when since I'll never buy one of those, but I assume the 458 Italia is the first model).

As long as Porsche and other sports cars don't abandon NA and 6MT on cars below $100K, I'd be a happy camper. Don't expect to buy many more before I become ashes, but would like choices . So yes, we 6MT diehards are becoming extinct indeed . Take care gang.

What language are you speaking?

[ruff]

This whole automatic vs manual diatribe is fascinating. Grandstanding about a cars particular type of transmission seems juvenile at best and reminds me of play ground antics arguing over who's daddy is tougher. Do people really think they are going to convince the person on the other side of the argument that their transmission of choice is better than someone else's? Do they get it that other people tend not to respond favorably to lecturing but instead get angry and defensive? Does one really win arguments? This all about ones personal preference, nothing more. Those who think there is actually more to it, well, good luck.

My personal preference is less is more, which is old school in this day and age. Case in point, the U.S. Constitution is six pages long and has stood the test of time. The new health care bill coming out of the Senate is more than 2000 pages.

I prefer to walk to the store or ride a bike rather than drive, simply for enjoyment and exercise. I also like to mow the lawn with a push mower and walk a golf course instead of taking a cart.

Watches with quartz movements are very accurate. ETA movements may arguably be slightly less accurate and movements built in house may be the least accurate of the three. So does that make a Seiko with a quartz movement a better performer and more desirable than a Patek Philippe with an in house movement?

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by King Tut

So how can it tell whether you are pulling the lever the first time for a quick gear change or that you will be pulling it again because you didn't really want to change to that gear but instead the one after it?

I can't give you a firm answer to that since I didn't design it, but I would guess that the controller waits for a very short period of time from the time the paddle input is received before it actually perform the shifts. If it receives more inputs, then it resets and waits again. This process takes on the order of milliseconds. The shift itself (i.e the mechanical part) takes somewhat longer I think - so in a relative sense there is little effect on the overall time from paddle pull to the completed shift.

Either it has to automatically shift to the gear you select or it has to think about it and wait to see if you really wanted to upshift or downshift two gears and therefore cause DCT lag.

It doesn't really have to think (i.e. there is no complex heuristics involved) it just has to wait for a couple milliseconds (or some reasonable time - I don't know the exact amount). From start to finish - there is some lag in the system, but to the driver it is virtually immediate. If you are used to the process of shifting a manual (I certainly was - having driven manuals for years) you would not be dissappointed by the shift time at all. Contrast this with SMG (at least SMG II - III is a bit better) where things felt lathargic.

[JCtx]

Originally Posted by garek

No matter how much skill you have shifting a manual, you will always be slower around a track than if you had a DCT.

This debate is passionate indeed. It depends what's your preference or motivation. There's no doubt it takes more skill to drive a manual car than a DCT (or any automatic). And the proof is simple: you can be shifting like a pro on a DCT in little time. It takes a lot more work to be able to drive a manual like a pro. That's a fact. Now, if your motivation is to drive as quickly as possible with the shortest amount of 'training', a DCT is for you.

The other statement few of us refute is a DCT will almost always be quicker and faster; that's a fact too. But it detracts from the involvement some of us want. Furthermore, very few of us will ever drive a manual like a pro (me included), so the reason to drive a manual is just pure driving enjoyment. If I was going to race, I'd definitely choose the simpler tranny, which is the DCT, so I don't have even more things to worry about while driving on a race track; it takes more skill which I don't have. THAT's the issue some folks don't get. Most of us will never have the skills required to master a manual car on a track. If driving a DCT car is multitasking, driving a manual is multitasking on steroids.

I personally get the most satisfaction driving my manual cars leisurely. It's awesome to have full control of your tranny, the accompanying engine drop while changing gears (rather than the boring BuuuuBuuuuuuBuuuuu automatic gear changes), blipping the throttle yourself, feeling each gear click into place, etc. But again, if I was racing, worrying about grinding gears, missing one, etc., I'd choose DCT simply because I'd be at a disadvantage with DCT drivers.

In summary: Yes, a DCT is quicker than a manual, but takes little practice; therefore not very fulfilling to drive for many of us. I say manual on the street, DCT/sequential/F1s/etc. on the track if driving competitively (not for fun), as on the track is where you learn how to drive a manual like a pro... eventually . Leave automated trannies for dedicated racecars, where you're busy enough maintaining control of the cars, but let's all buy manual cars from now on so they don't become extinct . So what's next for lazy americans: don't even bother making babies anymore ? And with clutches so light nowadays, a manual is not an excuse not to drive in traffic, even if you're a weakling (you have nothing better to do... unless you like to be distracted with phone calls and such ). Hope this settles the argument . Good day gang.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

If you are used to the process of shifting a manual (I certainly was - having driven manuals for years) you would not be dissappointed by the shift time at all.

I have driven the DCT at the one day M school. I definitely wasn't dissapointed by the shift time, and as I have said the DCT shifts way faster than any human could possibly. I just didn't realize that the transmission doesn't instantly shift when a lever is pulled and instead has to wait, say a tenth of a second, to see if you will hit it again before shifting. I never tried any double gear shifts while on the track.

[garek]

Originally Posted by King Tut

I have driven the DCT at the one day M school. I definitely wasn't dissapointed by the shift time, and as I have said the DCT shifts way faster than any human could possibly. I just didn't realize that the transmission doesn't instantly shift when a lever is pulled and instead has to wait, say a tenth of a second, to see if you will hit it again before shifting. I never tried any double gear shifts while on the track.

The way it seems to work based on my experience is that if you're braking, the DCT will wait perhaps even 1/2 second to see if you're going to do a multigear downshift. If you're on the gas, it will downshift immediately.

[smmmurf]

Originally Posted by jworms

that's where this aspect of the conversation should have ended. there is no debate on this and there can never be be any.


actually, i think forums are for just the opposite. in my experience, it has usually been providing factual information for everyone to learn from, or debate with other factual information. i despise arguments based solely on opinion because there is no answer no matter how long you discuss it and it is pointless. it all comes down to personal preference for whatever reason you choose and nobody can take that away from you. additionally, no single opinion covers everyone and it never should be construed as such.


totally agree. because of this, there can't be a valid argument on this aspect of the transmissions. however, there can be on the facts about both...



this should have been your stance the whole time.

now, for the purposes of this specific discussion, if we could just get away from the whole "maintenance/bugs/outlier scenarios" in DCT we might be able to figure out what BMW will probably do in the future. again, you can't look at the specific intricacies of the current DCT system; you must look at it from a higher level, for what it stands for and what it does. with the leaps and bounds BMW (and other manufacturers) have made with DCT setups, these supposed issues surely won't exist in the future. that is what this thread was about from the start and is how it should be treated going forward.

it would be interesting to see a list of the benefits/downfalls for both systems...without opinion backed argument. i have not compiled such a list, but i'd be willing to bet on DCT setups coming out on top in that comparison.

My posts are very opinionated yet those opinions are based off of facts and my interaction with cars that actually exist. You are still basing your argument in a hypothetical world where all of DCT's bugs are worked out. That's not realistic. The only outlier scenario is a world in which DCT never breaks or requires any attention... that is ridiculous amid how many issues people have reported on these forums... how's that for fact. It's also not realistic to expect that forums are only places for factual discussion. Forums are by nature extremely opinionated, and they should be so because opinions as I stated earlier drive purchasing decisions.

I enjoy exactly what DCT takes away from the driving experience: control. I enjoy the control and the ability to modulate the clutch and to blip the throttle myself. When that control is taken away, I feel more disconnected from the car. DCT doesn't allow you to double downshift without pausing, and it has issues with upshift lag and also has been known to freak out when you are under ABS braking and downshifting on the track. Since it's getting in the way of what I want the car to do, that's a net loss of control and I reject the transmission on face for that. But some people put up with it, that's why they sell it as an option.

Originally Posted by King Tut

I have driven the DCT at the one day M school. I definitely wasn't dissapointed by the shift time, and as I have said the DCT shifts way faster than any human could possibly. I just didn't realize that the transmission doesn't instantly shift when a lever is pulled and instead has to wait, say a tenth of a second, to see if you will hit it again before shifting. I never tried any double gear shifts while on the track.

Yup. The inherent lag in shift response is disconcerting until you get used to it. Unlike a manual of course, which actually shifts when you move the lever.

Originally Posted by elp_jc

This debate is passionate indeed. It depends what's your preference or motivation. There's no doubt it takes more skill to drive a manual car than a DCT (or any automatic). And the proof is simple: you can be shifting like a pro on a DCT in little time. It takes a lot more work to be able to drive a manual like a pro. That's a fact. Now, if your motivation is to drive as quickly as possible with the shortest amount of 'training', a DCT is for you.

The other statement few of us refute is a DCT will almost always be quicker and faster; that's a fact too. But it detracts from the involvement some of us want. Furthermore, very few of us will ever drive a manual like a pro (me included), so the reason to drive a manual is just pure driving enjoyment. If I was going to race, I'd definitely choose the simpler tranny, which is the DCT, so I don't have even more things to worry about while driving on a race track; it takes more skill which I don't have. THAT's the issue some folks don't get. Most of us will never have the skills required to master a manual car on a track. If driving a DCT car is multitasking, driving a manual is multitasking on steroids.

I personally get the most satisfaction driving my manual cars leisurely. It's awesome to have full control of your tranny, the accompanying engine drop while changing gears (rather than the boring BuuuuBuuuuuuBuuuuu automatic gear changes), blipping the throttle yourself, feeling each gear click into place, etc. But again, if I was racing, worrying about grinding gears, missing one, etc., I'd choose DCT simply because I'd be at a disadvantage with DCT drivers.

In summary: Yes, a DCT is quicker than a manual, but takes little practice; therefore not very fulfilling to drive for many of us. I say manual on the street, DCT/sequential/F1s/etc. on the track if driving competitively (not for fun), as on the track is where you learn how to drive a manual like a pro... eventually . Leave automated trannies for dedicated racecars, where you're busy enough maintaining control of the cars, but let's all buy manual cars from now on so they don't become extinct . So what's next for lazy americans: don't even bother making babies anymore ? And with clutches so light nowadays, a manual is not an excuse not to drive in traffic, even if you're a weakling (you have nothing better to do... unless you like to be distracted with phone calls and such ). Hope this settles the argument . Good day gang.

^^Exactly. In a world where more and more of our lives are decided for us, it's nice to be able to shift your own gears. I also really like to drive a manual leisurely. The interaction with the rev drop and rev matching is really quite an engaging and fun experience as opposed to having the car do all the work for you. The constant challenge of making shifts smoother keeps me entertained and awake.

Being fed through an IV requires no human effort, but I prefer chewing my food and deciding whether I want to eat my veggies or my noodles first. LOL. It's full-filling (ha ha) to be able to pick up food with a fork or chopsticks and take your own bites.

[jworms]

Originally Posted by smmmurf

My posts are very opinionated yet those opinions are based off of facts and my interaction with cars that actually exist.

completely untrue. prove (with facts) that driving with a manual is more fun for everyone. you can't, so stop pushing your opinions as fact. they are not. i don't understand what's so difficult to understand about this.

Originally Posted by smmmurf

You are still basing your argument in a hypothetical world where all of DCT's bugs are worked out. That's not realistic. The only outlier scenario is a world in which DCT never breaks or requires any attention... that is ridiculous amid how many issues people have reported on these forums... how's that for fact.

you just don't get it. this thread didn't start as a critique of the current DCT. it started with the future of DCT. are you trying to say that these issues you speak of will never get fixed in future renditions of DCT? that's just silly talk! stop focusing on the current DCT and start viewing it as what it stands for and what it does! (third time i've said this in this thread!)

Originally Posted by smmmurf

It's also not realistic to expect that forums are only places for factual discussion. Forums are by nature extremely opinionated, and they should be so because opinions as I stated earlier drive purchasing decisions.

i don't expect that. i merely pointed out that i use forums for something different than what you seem to use them for. you know what else drives purchasing decisions? cold, hard facts. i would only hope that consumers would pay more attention to facts than opinions when looking to buy a car. especially one that costs this much money.

Originally Posted by smmmurf

I enjoy exactly what DCT takes away from the driving experience: control. I enjoy the control and the ability to modulate the clutch and to blip the throttle myself. When that control is taken away, I feel more disconnected from the car. DCT doesn't allow you to double downshift without pausing, and it has issues with upshift lag and also has been known to freak out when you are under ABS braking and downshifting on the track. Since it's getting in the way of what I want the car to do, that's a net loss of control and I reject the transmission on face for that. But some people put up with it, that's why they sell it as an option.

meh, more opinion fueled argument. no reason for me to respond.

in regard to downshifting two gears at a time, i thought i'd add a different perspective on that "issue". the racing perspective. if you are on a racetrack and you enter your braking zone, then go to downshift as soon as you can, you won't be able to downshift two gears at a time because DCT won't let you overrev the engine. because of this, i would expect DCT to understand this scenario and do the 1 gear downshift without hesitation (can anyone confirm?). those who are familiar with track racing will probably understand this scenario better than those who aren't.

now, some people choose to downshift two gears at a time in the braking zone which (no matter what transmission you have) involves letting the engine come down far enough in RPMs to allow for a two gear downshift. if you have a manual this involves unsettling your feet more because you must blip the throttle that much more to get it in the right spot for the two gear downshift...with DCT, you won't have to worry about it and it will take care of it with ease after a small delay. this whole process would give more than enough time to prepare for the upcoming turn

personally, with my experience driving a DCT equipped car, i had no problems downshifting two gears and the speed at which it was done was impressive to say the least. at this point, it seems like some of the DCT haters are just grasping for something to cling on to. i'm not saying it's wrong (i would want to justify my $60k+ purchase too), but it's pretty transparent.

[1BMW4fun]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

Like I mentioned before. The last thing a race car driver cares about is driving excitement, thrills and adrenaline rush. He is competing for money and the title as part of his profession. He would do whatever it takes to make it easier for himself to run the fastest lap.

A true enthusiast is not competing for prize money with his own car. He bought the car himself and cares about having the most fun, excitement and thrills with his car while using his skills to master the art of driving and extracting the maximum performance out of his car. Completely apples to oranges.

Your statment is funny, so all the professional racers out there are just out to make money? Are you serious? And the fact that you have to list out all "7" steps for a rev-matching technique tells me something you. I'm not here for personal attacks but reading your posts is sure entertaining.

[smmmurf]

Originally Posted by jworms

completely untrue. prove (with facts) that driving with a manual is more fun for everyone. you can't, so stop pushing your opinions as fact. they are not. i don't understand what's so difficult to understand about this.


you just don't get it. this thread didn't start as a critique of the current DCT. it started with the future of DCT. are you trying to say that these issues you speak of will never get fixed in future renditions of DCT? that's just silly talk! stop focusing on the current DCT and start viewing it as what it stands for and what it does! (third time i've said this in this thread!)


i don't expect that. i merely pointed out that i use forums for something different than what you seem to use them for. you know what else drives purchasing decisions? cold, hard facts. i would only hope that consumers would pay more attention to facts than opinions when looking to buy a car. especially one that costs this much money.


meh, more opinion fueled argument. no reason for me to respond.

in regard to downshifting two gears at a time, i thought i'd add a different perspective on that "issue". the racing perspective. if you are on a racetrack and you enter your braking zone, then go to downshift as soon as you can, you won't be able to downshift two gears at a time because DCT won't let you overrev the engine. because of this, i would expect DCT to understand this scenario and do the 1 gear downshift without hesitation (can anyone confirm?). those who are familiar with track racing will probably understand this scenario better than those who aren't.

now, some people choose to downshift two gears at a time in the braking zone which (no matter what transmission you have) involves letting the engine come down far enough in RPMs to allow for a two gear downshift. if you have a manual this involves unsettling your feet more because you must blip the throttle that much more to get it in the right spot for the two gear downshift...with DCT, you won't have to worry about it and it will take care of it with ease after a small delay. this whole process would give more than enough time to prepare for the upcoming turn

personally, with my experience driving a DCT equipped car, i had no problems downshifting two gears and the speed at which it was done was impressive to say the least. at this point, it seems like some of the DCT haters are just grasping for something to cling on to. i'm not saying it's wrong (i would want to justify my $60k+ purchase too), but it's pretty transparent.

You say that I'm saying that it's a fact that manuals are more fun for everyone. That's yet another mishandling of my argument. I'm saying it's preferred by many people. Did I say the majority? No... I never did. In fact, I said that there are people that enjoy it more (such as myself), and that is a fact.

DCT has two problems with downshifting. It has a single clutch for odd gears and another single clutch for even gears. When you ask it two downshift twice, it incurs a long delay due. The second issue that has been reported is that it will physically refuse to engage a lower gear until ABS is disengaged under threshold braking. The shortcoming in this regard is that the car won't downshift when you tell it to under certain situations. In regards to upshifts, it also has a delay between the moment you click the paddle and when it decides to upshift (worse when not full throttle). The overall picture here is a diminished level of control. With a 6MT, I can shift whenever I want. I can even skip two or three gears when downshifting when I'm threshold braking or not. What a concept...

Examining DCT in a perfect world where it has no limitations is akin to examining 6MT in a world where driver error doesn't exist. It's just a useless exercise.

I don't hate DCT. It's actually a pretty good transmission. I just can't justify ordering one when I enjoy 6MT more (much more) and when DCT, SMG, and <insert-flappy-paddle-box-here> have been known to be dealer queens. They have their place in commute-driven M3's in the hands of drivers who enjoy a less-involving driving experience. That certainly isn't me, though.

I can understand why you would want to have a DCT in LA. If I had to daily drive an M3 in LA traffic, I'd probably get a DCT as well. But I wouldn't live in LA let alone drive a nice car there. Lots of people don't give a sh*t about other peoples stuff and hence nice cars like M3's get trashed. The traffic is also not very conducive to driving a low-mpg, high HP car because the opportunities to exercise it are rare. And finally, the roads freakin' suck. I'm very glad I'm not driving my own car when I trek across Wilshire in a rental.

One last thing. Facts don't sell M3's, emotions do. I prefer reading the opinions of reviewers than spec sheets because I think the driving experience goes far beyond the dimensions and capacities of this car. After all, people buy these cars to have fun. I bought this car because I like the way it looks, sounds, and rides. Since 6MT elevates that emotional response for me, it is my transmission of choice.

[jworms]

Originally Posted by smmmurf

You say that I'm saying that it's a fact that manuals are more fun for everyone. That's yet another mishandling of my argument. I'm saying it's preferred by many people. Did I say the majority? No... I never did. In fact, I said that there are people that enjoy it more (such as myself), and that is a fact.

you were using that "opinion based fact" to justify why 6MT is better than DCT. that's as good as me saying purple is better than green and that many people would agree, therefore my argument should stick and retain validity when confronted with factual data. things don't work like that. i think if you reread through your responses you will see how you have done just that and it is not right by any stretch.

Originally Posted by smmmurf

DCT has two problems with downshifting. It has a single clutch for odd gears and another single clutch for even gears. When you ask it two downshift twice, it incurs a long delay due. The second issue that has been reported is that it will physically refuse to engage a lower gear until ABS is disengaged under threshold braking. The shortcoming in this regard is that the car won't downshift when you tell it to under certain situations. In regards to upshifts, it also has a delay between the moment you click the paddle and when it decides to upshift (worse when not full throttle). The overall picture here is a diminished level of control. With a 6MT, I can shift whenever I want. I can even skip two or three gears when downshifting when I'm threshold braking or not. What a concept...

Examining DCT in a perfect world where it has no limitations is akin to examining 6MT in a world where driver error doesn't exist. It's just a useless exercise.

you still don't undertstand why this thread was started. i have now repeated this numerous times. answer this simple question and we'll be done with this...

the issues with today's DCT do not directly correlate to the issues of future DCT technology. agree or disagree and why?


i'll even answer it for you (even though it was rhetorical). nobody knows for sure what will come of future DCT technology, but it would be absolutely silly and plain out ignorant to believe that manufacturers wouldn't fix issues that currently exist and not strive for something better. i mean look at how much progress has been made between SMG and DCT (for the record, i hated SMG). DCT is light years ahead of SMG and i would expect similar progression in the next iteration of DCT.

Originally Posted by smmmurf

I don't hate DCT. It's actually a pretty good transmission. I just can't justify ordering one when I enjoy 6MT more (much more) and when DCT, SMG, and <insert-flappy-paddle-box-here> have been known to be dealer queens. They have their place in commute-driven M3's in the hands of drivers who enjoy a less-involving driving experience. That certainly isn't me, though.

I can understand why you would want to have a DCT in LA. If I had to daily drive an M3 in LA traffic, I'd probably get a DCT as well. But I wouldn't live in LA let alone drive a nice car there. Lots of people don't give a sh*t about other peoples stuff and hence nice cars like M3's get trashed. The traffic is also not very conducive to driving a low-mpg, high HP car because the opportunities to exercise it are rare. And finally, the roads freakin' suck. I'm very glad I'm not driving my own car when I trek across Wilshire in a rental.

One last thing. Facts don't sell M3's, emotions do. I prefer reading the opinions of reviewers than spec sheets because I think the driving experience goes far beyond the dimensions and capacities of this car. After all, people buy these cars to have fun. I bought this car because I like the way it looks, sounds, and rides. Since 6MT elevates that emotional response for me, it is my transmission of choice.

i went through and did some bolding of key phrases. hope you don't mind.

also, we'll have to agree to disagree that opinions sell cars more than facts do. think gas mileage, horsepower, performance specs, available options, warranty, etc. i'd be willing to bet most car manufacturer's marketing data would side with me on this one.

[FruitCake]

the 6-sp guys are looking more and more like pro drivers cuz they are such TRUE enthusiasts OMG HOW DO I BE LIKE U GUYS?????

[FruitCake]

Jworms is pretty spot on, it seems this is what the 6-sp guys are trying to prove: "OMG Im a true enthuiast and I only want 6-sp cuz I don't want to look like a sissy so I make excuses like 'control' and 'feel' and 'fun' bla bla bla when I can't even drive a car worth a damn, im worried about shift time, rev-matching etc."

i'll put it straight, if you are SERIOUSLY boasting about the AWESOMENESS of SHIFTING THE CAR YOURSELF and HOW MUCH SKILL IT REQUIRES, you are the definition of the BMW DRIVER. People who swerve between lanes and drive faster cuz they simply "drive the ultimate driving machine". BMW fanboys who hates anything else like Mercedes simply because they drive a BMW. Because they are BMW fanboys who were born during an era of people where they thought that the most hardcore enthusiast drove E30 M3s and how 'SICK' they are. The argument about control is stupid too. The people who seems to defend 6sp seems like the same type of people when asked a question : Who will win, M3 vs. XXX from a stop light and they'll come up with the genius answer like they can drive really well "oh it'll be a drivers race, who knows".

Its seriously funny to see how fake some of these people here are, defending 6sp like its their last drop of ego and pride.

I love my 6sp E46 and choosing DCT over the 6sp E92 did cross my mind, but DCT is simply put, superior in every way.

[Echo M3]

This is absolutely hilarious. When did driving an M3 in California suddenly become difficult? Try commuting on a daily basis to NYC and having to dodge potholes the size of small mobile homes. Not to mention rain, snow, sleet, fog, thunderstorms, etc. Sheesh, you Californians love to complain

Originally Posted by smmmurf

1. Yes, I enjoy a manual. In California. Sure, it's not the best feeling to come up on traffic when I'm in the M3, but that represents maybe 10% of the time that I spend in my E90 or E46. Plus, I have a hybrid with an auto box for daily driving. But since I live on campus, I don't really need to get anywhere on a daily basis. When I was commuting to various jobs I usually took the hybrid. When I drive the M3, it's usually because I'm going somewhere for fun. If you think traffic is bad enough to require an automatic and you can't have two cars for some reason, by all means... make the compromise... see my excerpt about compromises above.

2. My opinion is obviously relevant because I actually bought one. As a paying custosmer, my opinion is valuable to the companies who make the products. And the opinions of the other manual enthusiasts were valuable enough that BMW brought the 6MT over on the E60... and E90...

It's a fact that opinions matter, especially when they drive purchasing decisions.

Edit: Sh*t, I just realized you live in LA. I wouldn't even own an M3 in LA let alone a manual one. I'd sell all my M cars and buy a used Japanese 4-door sedan or small crossover that I didn't have to care about. I visit UCLA at least once a month and I always take the hybrid or a rental car. I took re-delivery of my E90 in Torrance and the drive back to NorCal was NOT fun. It took me an hour to even get out of LA and I had the whole front end taped up to protect the car from flying debris once traffic actually started moving.

[1BMW4fun]

Originally Posted by FruitCake

Jworms is pretty spot on, it seems this is what the 6-sp guys are trying to prove: "OMG Im a true enthuiast and I only want 6-sp cuz I don't want to look like a sissy so I make excuses like 'control' and 'feel' and 'fun' bla bla bla when I can't even drive a car worth a damn, im worried about shift time, rev-matching etc."

i'll put it straight, if you are SERIOUSLY boasting about the AWESOMENESS of SHIFTING THE CAR YOURSELF and HOW MUCH SKILL IT REQUIRES, you are the definition of the BMW DRIVER. People who swerve between lanes and drive faster cuz they simply "drive the ultimate driving machine". BMW fanboys who hates anything else like Mercedes simply because they drive a BMW. Because they are BMW fanboys who were born during an era of people where they thought that the most hardcore enthusiast drove E30 M3s and how 'SICK' they are. The argument about control is stupid too. The people who seems to defend 6sp seems like the same type of people when asked a question : Who will win, M3 vs. XXX from a stop light and they'll come up with the genius answer like they can drive really well "oh it'll be a drivers race, who knows".

Its seriously funny to see how fake some of these people here are, defending 6sp like its their last drop of ego and pride.

I love my 6sp E46 and choosing DCT over the 6sp E92 did cross my mind, but DCT is simply put, superior in every way.

+1000, dead on, you seem to described half of the people on this thread or dare I say board.