Sponsored by The Tire Rack

[Radiation Joe]

Originally Posted by alpine92m3

And probably runs 18inch Miro wheels with Bbs sticker center caps

One set of RAC RG63 in 18 inch - Summer street set-up
One set of OEM style 260s - Winter set-up
Two sets of BBS forged magnesium REs in 18 inch - track set-up. (with BBS center caps)

What are you running? 360 Forged? Those wheels are awesome, dude.

[chris s]

Joe, you should really lighten up a bit man. It's not THAT big of a deal, i promise.

[Crazy Bimmer]

I really dont think he cares all that much. Hes just having fun getting a rise out of some of yous.

[Radiation Joe]

Originally Posted by pumper206

I asked "Radiation Joe" the same question...Explain why 20" wheels decrease handling performance on a vehicle. I've heard everything else but never that. If true, I'm really interested in why. Contact patch smaller? Wheels are heavier, so an increase in unsprung mass? Etc....
I received no explanation from him. Joe, if you're gonna keep talking shit about 20's, at least educate at the same time. Geez.

1. They're heavier than a comparable 19 and much heavier than a comparable 18. Unsprung weight contributes to poorer handling.
2. Worse than the overall weight is the fact that the weight is concentrated farther out on the radius. This has a measurable affect on acceleration, due to the flywheel affect mostly in lower gears. Not as big a deal at speed.
3. The shorter, stiffer sidewall necessary with these wheels invariably hurts the ride. But worse, it changes the natural frequency of one component of the suspension. Combined with the increased unsprung weight, it makes it harder for the tire to remain in good contact with the road on anything other than a tabletop smooth surface.

Hope you all have fun "rocking" your 20s.

[Cptn Mo 703]

Dude you act like everytime you leave your house in the M that your tracking it. Last time I checked there wasn't a race to get to a grocery store or mall.

[Templar]

Guys, you're feeding the troll. Just ignore him and do what you want with your cars.

What you do has no effect on him and what he does has no effect on you. He's just enjoying getting a rise out of you all and making you mad.

[smmmurf]

Originally Posted by Cptn Mo 703

Dude you act like everytime you leave your house in the M that your tracking it. Last time I checked there wasn't a race to get to a grocery store or mall.

Last I checked a crappy ride on the way to the grocery store or mall is a crappy ride on the way to the grocery or the mall

I'll take my 18" forged RAC wheels too thanks, but if you like 20's that's your choice!

Originally Posted by pumper206

I asked "Radiation Joe" the same question...Explain why 20" wheels decrease handling performance on a vehicle. I've heard everything else but never that. If true, I'm really interested in why. Contact patch smaller? Wheels are heavier, so an increase in unsprung mass? Etc....
I received no explanation from him. Joe, if you're gonna keep talking shit about 20's, at least educate at the same time. Geez.

Even though Joe is being abrasive (haha) what he says is totally true. 18's are the best performing wheel on this car. Any bigger and you're making the ride worse and the acceleration/handling worse given the same tire. I went from 19" OEM wheels to 18" OEM wheels both with PS2's and the OEM 18's are significantly smoother and quieter. I then went to a set of 18" forged RAC's with Pilot Super Sports and they are the best!

But beauty is pain right... so if you want 20s for the look of 20s and are willing to sacrifice ride, handling, acceleration, braking, your choice. The difference is NOT small in my opinion... but it may be worth it to some people which is why people have 20s... haha

[pumper206]

Originally Posted by Radiation Joe

1. They're heavier than a comparable 19 and much heavier than a comparable 18. Unsprung weight contributes to poorer handling.
2. Worse than the overall weight is the fact that the weight is concentrated farther out on the radius. This has a measurable affect on acceleration, due to the flywheel affect mostly in lower gears. Not as big a deal at speed.
3. The shorter, stiffer sidewall necessary with these wheels invariably hurts the ride. But worse, it changes the natural frequency of one component of the suspension. Combined with the increased unsprung weight, it makes it harder for the tire to remain in good contact with the road on anything other than a tabletop smooth surface.

Hope you all have fun "rocking" your 20s.

Hmmm...very interesting. Knew about the unsprung weight thing but didn't know that it changes the natural frequency of one component of the suspension. And, makes it harder for the tire to remain in good contact with the road on anything other than a tabletop smooth surface. Good to know. I've been rolling on 19" RG63s(still have them) and before that 19" Volk G2s. I just recently purchased my first set of 20's, BBS LMs . So, I guess I'll find out first hand how 20's feel. Joe, thx for the info . Take it easy on us guys rocking those Dubs and don't worry. One thing I know for sure is that I'll definitely have fun "" my 20s.

[pumper206]

Originally Posted by smmmurf

Last I checked a crappy ride on the way to the grocery store or mall is a crappy ride on the way to the grocery or the mall

I'll take my 18" forged RAC wheels too thanks, but if you like 20's that's your choice!



Even though Joe is being abrasive (haha) what he says is totally true. 18's are the best performing wheel on this car. Any bigger and you're making the ride worse and the acceleration/handling worse given the same tire. I went from 19" OEM wheels to 18" OEM wheels both with PS2's and the OEM 18's are significantly smoother and quieter. I then went to a set of 18" forged RAC's with Pilot Super Sports and they are the best!

But beauty is pain right... so if you want 20s for the look of 20s and are willing to sacrifice ride, handling, acceleration, braking, your choice. The difference is NOT small in my opinion... but it may be worth it to some people which is why people have 20s... haha

+1. Well said. I've actually been thinking about selling my RG63s for a set of 18" TE37SLs. I will be tracking the car so from what I'm hearing from you guys is definitely go w/18s. Anyone interested in a set of 19" Brushed RG63s on Vredestein Ultrac Sessantas?

[Cptn Mo 703]

Originally Posted by smmmurf

Last I checked a crappy ride on the way to the grocery store or mall is a crappy ride on the way to the grocery or the mall

I'll take my 18" forged RAC wheels too thanks, but if you like 20's that's your choice!

IMO my ride didn't change at all when i went to 20's. Even with the drop i didn't feel a difference. I bought a M3, not a Mercedes or Cadillac.

Also he's the one that started bashing 20's for no reason, thats why everyone here started saying something back. There was no reason for him to come here and start something like that.

[alpine92m3]

When I started this thread .. I Specifically asked opinions from
"Members who run 20s"... No where did i ask "if you don't have 20s please give me your opinions".. Thanks have fun with your 16inch wheels rocking your 70k car with your 80 year old wife in the passenger seat.. I'll "rock" my 20inch forgestars .. Thanks

[andrew270681]

[smmmurf]

Originally Posted by Cptn Mo 703

IMO my ride didn't change at all when i went to 20's. Even with the drop i didn't feel a difference. I bought a M3, not a Mercedes or Cadillac.

Also he's the one that started bashing 20's for no reason, thats why everyone here started saying something back. There was no reason for him to come here and start something like that.

Who cares dude

In your opinion there was no reason for him to come here and do that
In his opinion he got some value out of getting a rise of people he thought are ridiculous for riding on 20s

haha

In your opinion ride didn't change (did you change tire brand/model too). In my opinion going from PS2's from 19" to 18" made a huuuuuge difference.



I'd argue that a Merc or Caddilac has more room to put 20's on since the ride is already so nice to begin with. An M3 rides kinda edgy to begin with so if you go and make it ride worse you're gonna have a car that is harsh to more people than if you do the same thing to a car that has more insulation to begin with. It's kinda stupid to say oh well the car rides harsh to begin with so what difference is it gonna make if I make it worse. I guarantee you there is a point at which it becomes intolerable even if harsh to you is much more harsh than harsh is to me. Or maybe your roads are just much better. Anyone with nerves can appreciate a nice, smooth ride.

but to each his own!

[Cptn Mo 703]

Originally Posted by Radiation Joe

You run 20s.

Why don't you put on gold plated kidney grills and velour interior while you're at it?

Oh! Yes, you are correct. I'm a jerk. But at least I didn't turn my car into a pimpmobile.

^ who says stuff like that? The OP asked members running on 20's not some idiot whose anal about having a stiff ride to a damn grocery store and getting there in record time because he has 18's on his car.

Originally Posted by smmmurf

Who cares dude

In your opinion there was no reason for him to come here and do that


In your opinion ride didn't change (did you change tire brand/model too). In my opinion going from PS2's from 19" to 18" made a huuuuuge difference.


but to each his own!

Not only my opinion but a handful of other people on this thread find it childish that he did that.


I went from my stock 19's with ps2's to 20x12 dpe's with hankooks, and if my life were on the line i wouldn't be able to tell the difference between ride quality, comfort, speed or anything.

Yes to each his own. If i were to track the car theres no way i would leave my 20's on, i would be on a set of light weight 18's. But since im never on the track theres no need for me to be riding around on 18's. Look at it from my side, i never came on this thread or any other thread and said that 18's suck, or they look horrible or anything negative about them, but someone doesn't have the same respect for larger wheels.

[smmmurf]

Originally Posted by Cptn Mo 703

^ who says stuff like that? The OP asked members running on 20's not some idiot whose anal about having a stiff ride to a damn grocery store and getting there in record time because he has 18's on his car.


Not only my opinion but a handful of other people on this thread find it childish that he did that.


I went from my stock 19's with ps2's to 20x12 dpe's with hankooks, and if my life were on the line i wouldn't be able to tell the difference between ride quality, comfort, speed or anything.

Yes to each his own. If i were to track the car theres no way i would leave my 20's on, i would be on a set of light weight 18's. But since im never on the track theres no need for me to be riding around on 18's. Look at it from my side, i never came on this thread or any other thread and said that 18's suck, or they look horrible or anything negative about them, but someone doesn't have the same respect for larger wheels.

hankooks are much softer sidewalled than PS2's given the same diameter so it makes sense that your 20's ride like 19's (however they don't perform as well but as you said you don't track it- they're significantly heavier and much more sidewall flex)

ok so i guess you just are mad at the fact that someone bashed your wheels. well i cant help you with that.

[Cptn Mo 703]

Originally Posted by smmmurf

hankooks are much softer sidewalled than PS2's given the same diameter so it makes sense that your 20's ride like 19's (however they don't perform as well but as you said you don't track it- they're significantly heavier and much more sidewall flex)

ok so i guess you just are mad at the fact that someone bashed your wheels. well i cant help you with that.

that just shows you how much i care about ride comfort on a sports car, i want it to be harsh or else i wouldn't have bought it, and to tell you the truth, i wish it would be a little rougher!!

in their best interest I doubt that anyone was bashing or would ever bash my wheels just gonna put that out there!!

[Brosef]

Not looking to join the fray here as it has become personal for some, but I think you guys are missing the bigger point that Radiation Joe was making. While he doesn’t seem to exhibit much of a bedside manner, I tend to somewhat agree with, or, at a minimum, understand what he’s saying. Beyond the fact that 20’s are indisputably less comfortable and are a drag on performance to varying degrees, whether you can feel it or not, the point he was making was that M3 owners who choose 20” wheels have placed a greater importance on aesthetics than function. That’s a personal choice, so nobody can say whether that is right or wrong. I’m not trying to debate the materiality of the performance compromise here, so please don’t bother responding to me saying it doesn’t make much of a difference for a street car. Now, the point Joe made that seems to have been missed is that if M3 consumers place a higher value on aesthetics than function, then BMW’s M division will therefore begin to cater to the desires of that constituency because they’re obviously in the business of selling cars. And this would be nothing new – you can see it in the evolution of the M3 from the E30 to the piggish E9X. Sure, part of the reason it has gained weight is because of required safety regulations, but another part is the desired creature comforts and the like. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that – what sold me on the M3 is that it’s so good for daily driving and yet can be quite competent on the track. 20” wheels, however, are in a different bucket than daily comfort, however, as their value is exclusively aesthetics (if you’re into that kind of thing). There’s a lot more that could be discussed about how consumer behavior plays a role in driving the development of new cars, but there’s no point in getting into that. In summary, if you want BMW to turn out better performing cars, then show them that their consumers care about performance first.

I had a few beers before writing this, so I hope it made sense.

[Crazy Bimmer]

The enthusiasts on this forum make up a very small percentage of overall M3 sales.

Majority of the members here do not even have 20s.

Theres really nothing to worry about, BMW will not take notice of the tiny number who prefer 20s.

[tha_good_life]

I love my "DUBS"

[pumper206]

Originally Posted by Brosef

Not looking to join the fray here as it has become personal for some, but I think you guys are missing the bigger point that Radiation Joe was making. While he doesn’t seem to exhibit much of a bedside manner, I tend to somewhat agree with, or, at a minimum, understand what he’s saying. Beyond the fact that 20’s are indisputably less comfortable and are a drag on performance to varying degrees, whether you can feel it or not, the point he was making was that M3 owners who choose 20” wheels have placed a greater importance on aesthetics than function. That’s a personal choice, so nobody can say whether that is right or wrong. I’m not trying to debate the materiality of the performance compromise here, so please don’t bother responding to me saying it doesn’t make much of a difference for a street car. Now, the point Joe made that seems to have been missed is that if M3 consumers place a higher value on aesthetics than function, then BMW’s M division will therefore begin to cater to the desires of that constituency because they’re obviously in the business of selling cars. And this would be nothing new – you can see it in the evolution of the M3 from the E30 to the piggish E9X. Sure, part of the reason it has gained weight is because of required safety regulations, but another part is the desired creature comforts and the like. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that – what sold me on the M3 is that it’s so good for daily driving and yet can be quite competent on the track. 20” wheels, however, are in a different bucket than daily comfort, however, as their value is exclusively aesthetics (if you’re into that kind of thing). There’s a lot more that could be discussed about how consumer behavior plays a role in driving the development of new cars, but there’s no point in getting into that. In summary, if you want BMW to turn out better performing cars, then show them that their consumers care about performance first.

I had a few beers before writing this, so I hope it made sense.

I'm just gonna slap on a supercharger to offset the performance loss via my 20" LMs .

[Brosef]

Originally Posted by Crazy Bimmer

The enthusiasts on this forum make up a very small percentage of overall M3 sales.

Majority of the members here do not even have 20s.

Theres really nothing to worry about, BMW will not take notice of the tiny number who prefer 20s.

agreed. my post wasn't trying to debate the practical implications of the members on this board who are running 20's nor was it meant to condemn those people. I was simply making the philosophical argument that where you spend your money can have an effect on the development of the automotive industry.

however, without getting into a debate over the practical implications, I would point out that there's no denying that the general public's taste for larger wheels on every car (SUV's, commuter cars, etc.) has had an effect on the size of wheels that cars have these days - not all these cars need big wheels as a result of larger brakes. think of how few people had 20's on their car 10 years ago - you would have made the same argument back then, but then take a look at how many cars roll off the factory line with 20"+ wheels. so while I don't disagree with your point, you shouldn't dismiss the effect that a few can have on the masses. and for the record, I'm not saying it's a bad thing - I think bigger wheels do look better and are worth some sacrifice in certain cases.

[Brosef]

Originally Posted by pumper206

I'm just gonna slap on a supercharger to offset the performance loss via my 20" LMs .

wouldn't be a bad choice

BUT, there's more that's lost through 20's than just acceleration. for LM's or LM-R's though, I'd say it's worth the tradeoff.