C&D Comparison: 997 TT vs. Nissan GT-R vs. M3. Guess who wins??

[KonigsTiger]

Originally Posted by Qship

ihyln, can you get the M-Package in the US? It is an option, and if yours is in production it might not be too late since this is simply an electronic option. If you ever run up against that 160mph limiter, your head will knock forward like you over rev'd the engine. Like Mom calling you home for dinner when you are half way up the tallest tree in the forest...except there is a bear behind you with [insert auto manufacturer emblem here.] "Mom! You just don't understand!" Get to the right.

Been researching, and tinkering with gear ratios, but mostly for my own understanding. I have been looking at the C&D gearing matrix in this post. Can anyone comment if there is anything that is incorrect?

If all is correct, then the Porsche 997 TT has a much more challenging time with higher speeds in terms of acceleration which would match my statement. Almost like Porsche engineers wanted only low end, mid-range, great start acceleration, and then as an afterthought for drivability they worked out expected top speed and geared it that way...not exactly the most efficient use of HP, but likely MORE than OK for track usage. Just leaves them exposed on the Autobahn where speeds exceed 200. The C4S yesterday was not fooling around, and he was damn fast. He let me have the lead with plenty of space after a couple of acceleration runs where I out shifted and out ran them...and I get to watch the conversation in my rear view mirror between him and his wife.

But of course, do not believe me (I am a troll or a little girl or whatever.) I am likely a liar.

Just look at the gear ratios. Substantial differences in the higher gears.

I will spare you the excel sheet I am tinkering with.

If you are considering a Porsche for the track, this post is likely irrelevant to you.

What do you mean by C4S, you mean the Porsche 911 "Carreara" 4S? I´ve gone against these in the rack and they are a challenge, but the M3 will beat it. I´ve also gone a long straights against the 911 TT, it blew me away!!! No competition. And we were going over 240kph. Of course, this all happened in Mexico City race tacks where altitude is a real issue for NA cars. We lose about 22% of our power output while the 911TT loses less than 10%, do I´m at a disadvantage right off the bat. The CS4 is apples to apples as it also is an NA.

[gbb357]

Originally Posted by Qship

ihyln, can you get the M-Package in the US? It is an option, and if yours is in production it might not be too late since this is simply an electronic option. If you ever run up against that 160mph limiter, your head will knock forward like you over rev'd the engine. Like Mom calling you home for dinner when you are half way up the tallest tree in the forest...except there is a bear behind you with [insert auto manufacturer emblem here.] "Mom! You just don't understand!" Get to the right.

Been researching, and tinkering with gear ratios, but mostly for my own understanding. I have been looking at the C&D gearing matrix in this post. Can anyone comment if there is anything that is incorrect?

If all is correct, then the Porsche 997 TT has a much more challenging time with higher speeds in terms of acceleration which would match my statement. Almost like Porsche engineers wanted only low end, mid-range, great start acceleration, and then as an afterthought for drivability they worked out expected top speed and geared it that way...not exactly the most efficient use of HP, but likely MORE than OK for track usage. Just leaves them exposed on the Autobahn where speeds exceed 200. The C4S yesterday was not fooling around, and he was damn fast. He let me have the lead with plenty of space after a couple of acceleration runs where I out shifted and out ran them...and I get to watch the conversation in my rear view mirror between him and his wife.

But of course, do not believe me (I am a troll or a little girl or whatever.) I am likely a liar.

Just look at the gear ratios. Substantial differences in the higher gears.

I will spare you the excel sheet I am tinkering with.

If you are considering a Porsche for the track, this post is likely irrelevant to you.

I am not going to mod mine. I have zero experience in this category (one of the reasons I was interested in this forum - that and the USB thing), so I would love to hear other opinions. Guess that would be in tuning?

I have another story about a 4S that I will just not talk about since this post went so well (not.)

I did discover that the extended electronic limitation that is supposed to kick in at 270 - did not...I hit an indicated 300 today, and it was still pulling. Mech at the shop says it will do 330 unlocked (indicated speed.) Glad I paid for that option.

The e92 M3 has a 60hp advantage on the C4S. 414hp for the M3 and 355 for C4S. And the 997tt is 480hp. I would think that the M3 should have an advantage against the C4S, but will get blown away by the 997tt all the time. I don't understand why you're not getting this. And you're telling me you actually did 186mph on your M3! I didn't know they can go that fast with the rev-limiter off.

[gbb357]

Here's Swamp's simulation data in case you missed it.

Originally Posted by Swamp

M3/997TT

100-120
4th 4.2/3.5
5th 5.2/4.2
6th 6.2/5.3

120-140
4th 5.2/-
5th 6.4/4.9
6th 7.8/6.3

140-160
5th 8.8/-
6th 11.2/8.1

Allowing shifts, best time:

100-120
4.2/3.5

120-140
5.2/4.9

140-160
8.8/7.7

Here's deechong's post in case you missed it.

Originally Posted by deechong

Since you argued E92 M3 having an advantage over 200km/h. Lets see the difference in time for both cars to accelerate from 124mph to 150mph

997TT 150mph @ 19.6 - 124mph @ 12.2 = 7.4 sec
Edit: 997TT 150mph @19.6 - 124mph @ 12.8 = 6.8 sec
E92 M3 150mph @ 24.9 - 124mph @ 16.7 = 8.2 sec

Even in the best case scenario, above 200km/h the E92 M3 is still significantly slower than the 997TT
Edit: Your chances just got slimmer

[Qship2]

@gbb357 - I got the data, and I have conceded that a 997 TT in the hands of someone who is willing to shift their car like they mean it ought to win reproducibly. I am screwing around with gearing for my own understanding at this point, as to how the scenario happened.

60HP difference on the C4S and the M3 is not going to make up for being in the "wrong" gear. See my response to BMW-M-Mexico below.

Re: limiter - Neither did I, but when it nudged over 270 a week or two ago, it nagged at me...like, "Hey, the limiter should have kicked in just there." I did not have more space, and the engine was almost 1000km newer, so I put it in the garage and figured I would find out the top end for sure soon enough. Haven't found it yet. Autobahn from Oberbayern into Munich is three lanes, but it did not free up properly (and a debadged Audi would not get out of the damn way until Holzkirchen (like it was a contest or something...beat those squirrels! faster! faster!)) Three M3s in a row, and a tailgating Italian in an S Klasse Mercedes that showed up late to the party and in a hurry every time we were slowed down.* Fun run.

@BMW-M-Mexico
Carrera 4S. I tried him first in 5th, and outran him barely after I got to 6th. Dropped it to 4th for the next one. Pulled away more clearly. Then we both eased up and cruised.


*it was Italy v- Holland last night, so I can understand. The Biergartens, cafés, and bars are packed for the European Championship.

[devo]

Originally Posted by Qship

ihyln, can you get the M-Package in the US? It is an option, and if yours is in production it might not be too late since this is simply an electronic option. If you ever run up against that 160mph limiter, your head will knock forward like you over rev'd the engine. Like Mom calling you home for dinner when you are half way up the tallest tree in the forest...except there is a bear behind you with [insert auto manufacturer emblem here.] "Mom! You just don't understand!" Get to the right.

Been researching, and tinkering with gear ratios, but mostly for my own understanding. I have been looking at the C&D gearing matrix in this post. Can anyone comment if there is anything that is incorrect?

If all is correct, then the Porsche 997 TT has a much more challenging time with higher speeds in terms of acceleration which would match my statement. Almost like Porsche engineers wanted only low end, mid-range, great start acceleration, and then as an afterthought for drivability they worked out expected top speed and geared it that way...not exactly the most efficient use of HP, but likely MORE than OK for track usage. Just leaves them exposed on the Autobahn where speeds exceed 200. The C4S yesterday was not fooling around, and he was damn fast. He let me have the lead with plenty of space after a couple of acceleration runs where I out shifted and out ran them...and I get to watch the conversation in my rear view mirror between him and his wife.

But of course, do not believe me (I am a troll or a little girl or whatever.) I am likely a liar.

Just look at the gear ratios. Substantial differences in the higher gears.

I will spare you the excel sheet I am tinkering with.

If you are considering a Porsche for the track, this post is likely irrelevant to you.

The 997tt does not lack anything whatsoever on the top end. It becomes more of a beast. I understand that you are trying to comprehend what happened to you, but sometimes you just need to simply concede the obvious. You concede in part, which is followed by a "but". In the end you haven't really conceded anything.

[KonigsTiger]

Originally Posted by shift@red

a 996tt (and 996GT3) will embarass an e92 m3, the 997 GT3 and 997TT will absolutely demolish one even worse-no contest whatsoever.

That is my feeling as well, I have driven the 997tt on track and lapped it many, many times with instructor and all as I have my own M3. I have also gone up against a couple of 997tts in my M3 on bends and long, long streights. There is no question about it, the 997tt is faster in every instance. Of course, we were not going over 270kph, but most everywhere I have seen, the 911tt has a top end that is higher than anyone I know has been able to take an M3 to. I remember this Italian who posted a vid that takes him to 325kph on his E92 M3 but we suspected in the same thread that the speedo might have been wrong since technically the M3's top delimited speed should be right about 300kph (186mph).

[spearfisher]

Originally Posted by Qship

ihyln, can you get the M-Package in the US? It is an option, and if yours is in production it might not be too late since this is simply an electronic option. If you ever run up against that 160mph limiter, your head will knock forward like you over rev'd the engine. Like Mom calling you home for dinner when you are half way up the tallest tree in the forest...except there is a bear behind you with [insert auto manufacturer emblem here.] "Mom! You just don't understand!" Get to the right.

Been researching, and tinkering with gear ratios, but mostly for my own understanding. I have been looking at the C&D gearing matrix in this post. Can anyone comment if there is anything that is incorrect?

If all is correct, then the Porsche 997 TT has a much more challenging time with higher speeds in terms of acceleration which would match my statement. Almost like Porsche engineers wanted only low end, mid-range, great start acceleration, and then as an afterthought for drivability they worked out expected top speed and geared it that way...not exactly the most efficient use of HP, but likely MORE than OK for track usage. Just leaves them exposed on the Autobahn where speeds exceed 200. The C4S yesterday was not fooling around, and he was damn fast. He let me have the lead with plenty of space after a couple of acceleration runs where I out shifted and out ran them...and I get to watch the conversation in my rear view mirror between him and his wife.

But of course, do not believe me (I am a troll or a little girl or whatever.) I am likely a liar.

Just look at the gear ratios. Substantial differences in the higher gears.

I will spare you the excel sheet I am tinkering with.

If you are considering a Porsche for the track, this post is likely irrelevant to you.

You should beat a 911 C4s, your M3 is faster, see here:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...cs+page-2.html
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=2595

as far as your top end run, take someone with you and video it, that way you have substantiating evidence, it will start building your credibility.

but you have to remember, a 911TT is in a different category,

1. it's over a second faster than a 911C4 in the 1/4 mile
2. has a much higher top end also.

as far as high speed acceleration, you obviously have not driven a 911 TT, drive one and then tell us your still faster on a high speed run.

[footie]

It's more probable for a C4S to beat an M3 than an M3 to beat a Turbo, reason being it the similar performance between the two. All it would take is a poor shift from the M3 driver and the C4S would be there or there about.

Another problem with racing at up to speeds in access of 170mph on public roads is not everyone will be as committed or foolish as you. Where they may race you up to 130mph their willingness to continue to the max at full trust might not be there. So you may have felt that your M3 was quicker than a 997tt but the reality was that you had just been the more daring.

[dechoong]

I can't believe Qship is still on this issue

Let me just say that with the same driver in both cars, E92 M3 will have problem outrunning the 996TT, not to mention 997TT. The 996TT has a distinct advantage on in-gear acceleration with its torque, and you have to rev the nuts off the M3 just to keep up in a rolling start.

[dechoong]

Originally Posted by footie

Another problem with racing at up to speeds in access of 170mph on public roads is not everyone will be as committed or foolish as you. Where they may race you up to 130mph their willingness to continue to the max at full trust might not be there. So you may have felt that your M3 was quicker than a 997tt but the reality was that you had just been the more daring.

+1

Very likely. Personally, I'd back off at different speeds whenever I deem it's no longer safe depending on traffic and road conditions.

[KonigsTiger]

Originally Posted by dechoong

+1

Very likely. Personally, I'd back off at different speeds whenever I deem it's no longer safe depending on traffic and road conditions.

+2, I have been beaten once by an Audi S3 and another time, believe it or not, by a small car made by General Motors sold in Mexico called Chevy (smaller than a VW Golf with maybe 100hp). Reason? Well, both were driving RECKLESSLY and I simply let it go!!! The Chevy guy was passing onto oncoming traffic, but he kept going. They must have been very proud of themselves! I don’t bit in those occasions, I know what I have and also know my limits.

[dechoong]

[QUOTE=BMW-M-Mexico;2802878I know what I have and also know my limits.[/QUOTE]

Wise words from a true driver

[KonigsTiger]

Originally Posted by shift@red

exactly...997TT has better top end than anything bmw has to offer...im sure youve seen the video of the 997TT walking the m6, and it would do the same to the m5 (but to an even greater extent), and sinc ehte m5/m6 walk the m3, the 997TT would absolutely embarass one.
and one other thing, bmws speedos are known to be VERY optomistic, i had my e46 m3 up to ~150 on the speedo but prob feel as if it were most like 140, if not even less.

Yes, I've heard that too and if my speedo were correct, it would be 0 to 100 kph in 4 seconds or less!!!

[southlight]

Originally Posted by dechoong

Wise words from a true driver

+1


Best regards, south

[Qship2]

Originally Posted by dechoong

+1

Very likely. Personally, I'd back off at different speeds whenever I deem it's no longer safe depending on traffic and road conditions.

Without a doubt!

I actually cruise at speeds that are within tolerance if speed limits are posted, and generally maintain more than safe distance. See "Lost Highway" by David Lynch for a little education from Mister Eddie on safe distance when following another car.

[KonigsTiger]

All I can say is that I have ridden on the Autobahn a few times and it’s hardly ever really safe to go much faster than 220 or maybe 240kph; too much traffic, cars, etc… around. Now, I don’t live in Germany and I certainly only drive there on vacation or whatever about once, maybe twice a year so I am not saying my experience is representative, but it is my experience over several years that I have been there. If there are absolutely no cars around and visibility is adequate (meaning daylight) you may be able to push the car to the very “delimited” limit of around 300kph. Not even then do I feel that its “safe” but at least you will only kill yourself if something goes wrong. So good luck and try to record your next run when the cost is clear.

[Qship2]

My cruising speed is 200-220 in general. It seems to be a good middle ground. Bursts of speed and sustained high speed runs not always possible, but darn fun (and legal!) when traffic conditions are right.

Your eyes get used to fixing as far out as you can see after a while, and watching for telltale signs that occur before someone pulls out without indicating. You start getting an eye for speed differential that when I first moved over was not there. Also, cars always nudge out before changing lanes. I can only guess that this is the head turning to look in the rear view, which moves the shoulders ever so slightly, and it translates to a shift on the grip on the steering wheel. This is generally almost a second before they put on their indicator.

When I top it out, I will let you know. The car just sits in the garage most of the time, so be patient. I bike more than I drive.