C&D Comparison: 997 TT vs. Nissan GT-R vs. M3. Guess who wins??

[devo]

Originally Posted by spearfisher

huh, I don't understand, I stated the 911 is faster, I advised the only way the individual might beat a 911 is through the 911 driver making an error, ex: missed gear

I made corrections any way so there is no misunderstanding in the future

My bad and my apology, I misread your original post.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Qship

Am I the only M3 owner that is on this forum that drives on the Autobahn?

Clearly not, see posts with top speed runs by other folks.

Clearly folks who live in the US never or rarely driver there.

The question of which road is being driven on has absolutely no bearing on which car is faster.

[Davinhci]

The M3 got a 1 on the rebates/extras category the other 2 cars got a zero. I don't remember getting any rebates/extra on mine. hmmm

[devo]

Originally Posted by M3NTAL

easy there killers, I'm not saying that I would personally take an M3 over a 997 TT, in fact I wouldn't, the Porsche is a much better car. There is a reason for the $50k+ price difference.
That's just what the magazine says. Don't just assume because I posted this, I share the same opinion.

Well, it's obvious that you do share the same opinion, evidenced by your three smilies (in your original post) and subsequent responses. Ok, killer

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by Qship

devo...

Perhaps I am a damn good driver who knows how to shift, but I think that Porsche owners here in Germany know how to do this too...turbocharged HP is not equal to normally aspirated high rev HP and wide torque range...period.

Just how is turbocharged horsepower inferior to normally aspirated high rev horsepower? You're going to need to explain if you're able to do that - and I assume you are able to, because you're so assertive about that point. I've personally waxed poetic about the breadth and flatness of the M3's torque curve, but horsepower is horsepower, and the M3 simply makes a lot less of it compared to the Porsche, everywhere in its rev range.

Yeah, according to the article, the M3 has a minor weight advantage, but far from enough to make up the difference.

Originally Posted by Qship

I did not intend this to turn into a story telling episode, so sorry if I made you yawn, and from the number of my posts you should be able to tell that I am not so interested in "we are so great." I originally joined to ask a question about why the USB interface did not recognize certain file types...and never got an answer. I have hung around, but I am on the fence if I will stay.

I assume you posted your initial note in this string to imply that the M3 is quicker at speed compared to the turbo Porsche, but in point of fact, it really is a story. The 911 turbo will leave an M3 for dead from any speed to any other speed, your anecdote notwithstanding.

You're on the fence about staying around in this forum? Is that a threat?

Stay or leave, nobody cares. That's true of you, me, or anyone else.

Originally Posted by Qship

If you do not believe me, fine.

I whipped the shit out of two Porche 997 TTs on the autobahn. Done. It surprised the hell out of me.

I personally believe your story, but as Swamp says, other factors were at work.

Please, tell me about how the M3's horsepower is different (and better than) the Porsche's horsepower.

Or leave if you wish. That may be a better option for you, since you'll be unable to defend your point.

Bruce

[M3NTAL]

Originally Posted by devo

Well, it's obvious that you do share the same opinion, evidenced by your three smilies (in your original post) and subsequent responses. Ok, killer

This is an M3 forum and I have put $25k down on an M3. What am I supposed to put after them: "The M3 sucks this is complete bullshit!"???

It's just nice that we keep seeing M3s winning comparison tests, even though this one was stupid and really for the most part, wrong. Would I rather have a 911 Turbo over an M3? Hell yeah! But if I could have a Porsche I would go all out, and get a Carrera GT, those are amazing, and the exhaust note is better than almost anything on the road right now.

[M3NTAL]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

Just how is turbocharged horsepower inferior to normally aspirated high rev horsepower? You're going to need to explain if you're able to do that - and I assume you are able to, because you're so assertive about that point. I've personally waxed poetic about the breadth and flatness of the M3's torque curve, but horsepower is horsepower, and the M3 simply makes a lot less of it compared to the Porsche, everywhere in its rev range.

Yeah, according to the article, the M3 has a minor weight advantage, but far from enough to make up the difference.



I assume you posted your initial note in this string to imply that the M3 is quicker at speed compared to the turbo Porsche, but in point of fact, it really is a story. The 911 turbo will leave an M3 for dead from any speed to any other speed, your anecdote notwithstanding.

You're on the fence about staying around in this forum? Is that a threat?

Stay or leave, nobody cares. That's true of you, me, or anyone else.



I personally believe your story, but as Swamp says, other factors were at work.

Please, tell me about how the M3's horsepower is different (and better than) the Porsche's horsepower.

Or leave if you wish. That may be a better option for you, since you'll be unable to defend your point.

Bruce

Exactly.

You're more than welcome to stay Qship, just don't post things like you have. I have learned that M3 owners on this forum are obsessed with details, alot like myself, and if you don't have them right, or don't have a complete grasp on them, they have no problem with calling you out, even if those details make another car look better or be better than theirs.

A 997 TT is faster than an M3. Plain and simple. I also believe that they didn't keep up with you, but the thing I think you're failing to realize is that you have no idea how hard the drivers in the Porsches were going at it. You have no idea how much their feet were on the accelerator, and have no idea how fast they were shifting. So unless you're able to prove this, everyone, including myself, isn't going to believe the M3 is faster, especially when we have facts, figures, and knowledge that tells us the exact opposite.

[footie]

Qship,

Can the M6 blow the hell out of an M3?

Answer: HELL YES.

We know what the 997tt can do to an M6

So tell me, do you really believe that your M3 can work with, never mind beat a 997tt.

If you're hear an alarm bell at the moment it's your early morning wake up call from that fairytale you were in.

[dechoong]

Originally Posted by Qship

Am I the only M3 owner that is on this forum that drives on the Autobahn?

It wouldn't matter whatever-bahn you're on, the 997TT's power and performance is of another league to the E92 M3.

Obviously you've not sat in a 997TT with a fast driver behind the wheel, not to mention driven one. Not many car scares me (I even find the 997S with powerkit "a little slow"), but the 997TT at WOT does

[Krueger///M3]

Originally Posted by footie

Qship,

Can the M6 blow the hell out of an M3?

Only at a stoplight, not on a track...

[footie]

Originally Posted by Krueger///M3

Only at a stoplight, not on a track...

I didn't think when Qship was talking about beating a couple of 997tt on the Autobahn that there was to much handling finesse taking part, it is after all a pretty straight piece of motorway with the occasional slight bend thrown in for good measure.

I was only highlighting to absurdity of what he was suggesting, that an M3 could possibly match or even better a car with less weight, much more power and torque, that was designed to run at 200mph or there abouts all day long. If BMW's most powerful car gets a whipping by a stock 997tt then what chance has it's little, less powerful brother got to offer.

The answer ........... zip.

Like anyone here I want a discussion to stay in the realms of believability. It's a similar thing when the M3 is compared to the GTR, the M3 is a rival to the C63, IS-F & RS4, and a bloody good job it does on competing with these and in most cases winning them battles, but it's no nearer a rival to either a GTR or 997tt than a Ford Fiesta is to it.

[KonigsTiger]

Originally Posted by Qship

@Devo,
How often do you drive on the Autobahn? When was the last time you drove for 2 or 3 hours at speeds over 125mph semi-sustained? Over here, there is a lot of speeding up and slowing down. This is how these little competitions start. The fastest cars generally wind up in a line behind the slowest ones... If you are faster, then you bulldoze the car in front of you out of the way when they finally cede, and then you cruise for a while.

Oh...I just noticed...you drive a Porsche. No offense intended, since I am a long standing Porsche fan.

If you don't want to believe it, then perhaps you should spend some time on the Autobahn and find out how 0-60 doesn't actually mean anything...at all. Rolling starts are a different world completely. Speeds over 125mph? This is about manufacturer gearing decisions, weight, torque, horsepower, and aerodynamics.

Both behind and in front the M3 was faster than the 997 TT. Repeatedly.

Now maybe that is because I shift rather well- or it could be that Porsches are getting a bit chubby and that will get fixed pronto or Ferry will come back from the grave to Zuffenhausen to motivate his engineers. What do you think? Give it a year, and this is going to be a very different discussion.

Wow, here we go again!! Don't argue with this guy, Qship is convinced his M3 is faster than the 997 TT in all ways, shapes and forms.

[KonigsTiger]

Originally Posted by Qship

Am I the only M3 owner that is on this forum that drives on the Autobahn?

No you are not!!!!!

[dechoong]

Take a look at the power chart of both cars... where in 997TT rpm range do you see the E92 M3 having an advantage?

Lets say both cars are WOT and the 997TT driver upshift at max power 6500rpm. Even with the drop in rpm in the next higher gear, he still has more power than M3's max at 8300rpm.

[M3NTAL]

Originally Posted by Qship

Absurdity? Sigh.

I am not sure if you notice, but on that YouTube video, suddenly the lunging ahead of the Porsche slows in ultraslow motion right before the final shift and that M6 starts catching up... Now maybe the 997 TT figured that he won in the video (the official race was to 200 but note that the speed diff is not THAT significant at 240) and let up but I doubt it. Are you starting to see that when you get over 200kmph it ain't Kansas anymore, and all the performance figures you have might not be relevant. But to be winning and then to get to a point where speed (not distance) is relatively caught up... Think about this. A small speed advantage is how you win...not how you begin to freaking lose. That Porsche shifted to 6th right at 200 and punched ahead so in my opinion he was still racing; however, it is just one long tall gear up to redline of 7100 and a horsepower peak at 6000 which is likely right around 260, so it is not in its max power to wheels transfer band as long.

The M3 doesn't need to shift into sixth until much later, so it has the option of shifting to stay in the optimal RPM HP power curve longer when adding speed. This is a KEY advantage. Plus I started in 4th at 5500 RPMs. In the best match-up for the Porsche, it started to pull away, then we quickly equalized, he got over and I pulled alongside and passed slowly.

Is there an engineer in the house? Or a drag car racer? Both?

One more thought: the M3 bests the 997 TT by almost 20mph top end.

So you're telling us that the 997TT can only go 135mph? Shit my MINI Cooper S can do that every day of the week, easily.

Check your facts bro, the 997TT is capable of 185mph, if not more.

I will state this ONCE AGAIN: You have no idea in hell, if he was at full throttle, so all these little figures and comparisons you're throwing out don't mean jack shit, if you cannot prove beyond reasonable doubt that he was nailing it and going at it hard. Number 2, you haven't stated whether he dropped down a gear, if he started in 6th and you started in 4th, I could see that happen, but it doesn't mean that you "beat" them in the sense that the M3 is faster than the Porsche, BECAUSE IT ISN'T.

I feel like I'm talking to my damn dog. It listens to what I have to say though...

[KonigsTiger]

Originally Posted by Qship

M3NTAL and Bruce

what comes after 6th gear in both cars? which car revs higher?

you are forgetting the limitations in the use case: 4th or 5th gear start on the "i don't care what kind of bahn." Except that is where your logic fails you completely because it is outside what you are used to. This is not a snarky or rude comment. You are just forgetting this detail. There is nothing after 6th.

Effective power is what can be transferred to the rear wheels and varies throughout the RPM range depending on selected gear. In this use case 1st gear is always best to start, with 6th as a hard stop where it is only the characteristics of the engine that matters. Everything in between is a matter of RPMs, power at that RPM, gear selected, and speed. How you get to 6th, what RPM you are spinning when you get there, and how much more you have left is the art or the car.


The guy in the M6? He shifts early. TWICE. He chops the head off that engine. It is not until he lets one of the gears wind out that things change, but by then it is simply too late.

After 6th gear? Haven´t you guys driven on the Autobahn? The E92 M3 suddenly erupts and produces hydrogen rocket engines and it´ll take off like a bat out of hell to at least 400+kph where it is drag limited. 997 TT??? What? The M3 spits on it and beats it to the ground. That is what happens after 6th.

[KonigsTiger]

Originally Posted by M3NTAL

So you're telling us that the 997TT can only go 135mph? Shit my MINI Cooper S can do that every day of the week, easily.

Check your facts bro, the 997TT is capable of 185mph, if not more.

I will state this ONCE AGAIN: You have no idea in hell, if he was at full throttle, so all these little figures and comparisons you're throwing out don't mean jack shit, if you cannot prove beyond reasonable doubt that he was nailing it and going at it hard. Number 2, you haven't stated whether he dropped down a gear, if he started in 6th and you started in 4th, I could see that happen, but it doesn't mean that you "beat" them in the sense that the M3 is faster than the Porsche, BECAUSE IT ISN'T.

I feel like I'm talking to my damn dog. It listens to what I have to say though...

A dog? You are too kind!!!! My dog knows the 997TT is faster!! hahaha!!

[gbb357]

Qship, you honestly think that the 997tt with 480hp ,200lbs lighter, better grip with AWD is slower than your 414hp M3 regardless of what type of race, you're kidding right. Don't need an engineer or a racer car driver to figure this out.

[dechoong]

Originally Posted by Qship

One more thought: the M3 bests the 997 TT by almost 20mph top end.

Huh?!?!

You really need to check your facts

[KonigsTiger]

Originally Posted by dechoong

Huh?!?!

You really need to check your facts

Don't bother guys! We've been through all this on another post. This guy is simply out of this world!! here you go http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...16#post2767016

[M3NTAL]

Qship

Honestly Qship, I think you should have gone with original plan and leave, you still might have had SOME credibility left among the world's M3 enthusiasts.

I still can't believe this argument, We have proven with facts beyond reasonable doubt that if both drivers were accelerating in the same gear, pedal to the floor, that the M3 would have it's ass handed to it on a platinum platter. This idiot thinks that the M3 is faster than something that weighs less, makes more 70 more hp, and has almost twice the torque.

You don't deserve to have an M3, there should be an IQ assessment before handing over the keys from now on.

One word: Ignorance

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by Qship

M3NTAL and Bruce

what comes after 6th gear in both cars? which car revs higher?

you are forgetting the limitations in the use case: 4th or 5th gear start on the "i don't care what kind of bahn." Except that is where your logic fails you completely because it is outside what you are used to. This is not a snarky or rude comment. You are just forgetting this detail. There is nothing after 6th.

Effective power is what can be transferred to the rear wheels and varies throughout the RPM range depending on selected gear. In this use case 1st gear is always best to start, with 6th as a hard stop where it is only the characteristics of the engine that matters. Everything in between is a matter of RPMs, power at that RPM, gear selected, and speed. How you get to 6th, what RPM you are spinning when you get there, and how much more you have left is the art or the car...

Y'know, you're making this way too complicated. All that matters at any speed is power and weight, mitigated by aerodynamics as speeds get very high. If what you're getting at in your first sentence is that the M3 will have a slightly higher (theoretical) rev-limited top speed, that's correct, but of course the M3 will have to have enough power to reach its redline in top gear (about 188 mph), which is doubtful, and of course you'd have to modify the car to kill the speed limiter in order to even try that. Have you?

Starting in fourth at, say, 100 mph or so, the Porsche will have the advantage right up to its rev-limited top speed of around 185 or so.

There will be certain speeds where the M3 can minimize it's power to weight problem by being able to begin the contest in a lower gear than the Porsche (and this type of circumstance would also be true of any car against any other car). However. it still wouldn't be able to keep up.

By the way, you still haven't answered my question, which was:

"Just how is turbocharged horsepower inferior to normally aspirated high rev horsepower?"

Bruce