Ruminations on Laser Jammers, Tickets, and Speeding in general (Really Long)

[Seth_Horwitz]

To start things off, my name is Seth, and I'm a Speedaholic. (No offense to anyone in a 12-step program, but my behavior could be more self destructive than yours.) Having said that, my office relocated from New York to Philadelphia, and I drive "home" on the Jersey Turnpike, a 12 lane interstate for those of you who aren't familar, a few times a month. It's too tempting, everyone else is doing it, I'm an idiot for driving so fast, ..., I get it.

Anyway, I've had my trusty Valentine 1 for about a decade, (that equates to about a third of my life ) and this thing will get anything except laser. NO DETECTOR WILL SAVE YOU FROM A DEAD-ON LASER HIT. (It will get laser if the laser is shot at anything near you, but if I'm driving the fastest, I'm the first one he's going to try.) I've thought about getting a jammer, but here are my thoughts:

1. If you have a New York State license, out-of-state points do not transfer in unless they are alcohol related. Doubt me if you want, but do some research and you'll learn that it's true. As such, out-of-state tickets are simply a matter of fighting the cost of the ticket, not losing my license or having insurance rates go up.
2. Proving my case in court is often, except the most extreme cases (or if I get caught in NY), a waste of my time in pursuit of the possibility of maybe saving a dollar amount that rarely exceeds the aggravation.
3. No matter what you read in a forum, or hear from your friend's brother, a cop doesn't need to "show you a radar/laser receipt" or even get you with radar, for that matter.

   I have gotten a ticket where a park ranger (I know, I'm embarassed) on Jones Beach was sitting on the side of the road and "paced me" from a stationary position with his naked eye. I asked to see the radar gun, like everyone has said you should do (moreso because my V1 didn't make a peep), and he told me that he didn't even have a radar gun. Like a tough guy, I laughed and said "I'll see you in court," and I did. At the first hearing, I asked the judge to throw this thing out because it was absurd, and the "impartial" judge told me that he would take the cop's "trained eye" as being as good as a laser gun. I have a job, and the court just wants money, so I went in there with the hope of getting points cut, regardless of cost. I plead to a Seatbelt Violation (even though I was wearing one) and an Obstructed View Violation (even though the dash was clear) just to pay them, get no points, and get the hell out of there. Maybe I could've won at the next hearing, but my time is worth more than a few hundred bucks, and the court knows it. Bottom line from all this is that you don't need to get hit with Radar/Laser to wind up coming out of pocket.

4. In my opinion, a cop will know that you have a jammer.

   We could have an argument for days over the intelligence of your local highway patrol officer, but I don't think any of them are stupid enough to think that their speed gun that has worked for months just happens to have an internal problem when he aims it at you going 100 mph. (Or even 85 mph.) He's going to know what happened, and he's going to be pissed. Maybe the local officer in Podunk, AR will be fooled, but the Jersey Staties see this stuff all the time, and know what's going on. Combine this fact with my point above, and you're getting a ticket.

5. FLAME SUIT ON HERE - Some cops can be cool. I have been pulled over, hit with laser, and walked.

   If you are the type who is going to fight it out in court until the very end, never admit guilt to the patrolman stopping you. I, however, expect to pay whatever ticket amount they give me as long as I don't get points. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. Having said that, and this is no secret, the best way to get out of a ticket when you are stopped is to kiss the cop's ass. Turn the interior lights on before he walks to the car, have your license and registration sitting on the dash, turn the radio off, and put both hands on the steering wheel. This guy just wants to go home to his wife and kids at the end of the day, and you showing that you are not a threat to him will greatly ease the situation. (If it's a woman cop, you're getting a ticket, so just forget about it.) When he asks you "do you know why I pulled you over," or "do you know how fast you were going," there is just one answer: "I apologize officer. I know I was going too fast, and I should know better." Don't mention the word "speeding" or specify how fast you were going, just acknowlege your mistake. (Again, only if you have no intention of going to court.) Most of the people on this board would be shocked at how some cops will let you go, or give you a much lesser ticket. Some will be hard-asses, but some are cool.

Given what I know, or think I know, I just can't see myself getting a radar/laser jammer. It's going to piss the cops off, and I will have no shot of getting out of a ticket. Again, maybe it will help beat the ticket in court, but 1) I doubt it, 2) I have no desire to go to court, 3) will have no impact if the cop didn't use laser to begin with, and 4) I want to avoid a ticket from the start. In my head, every time a cop "helps me out," the amount saved should be added on to the cost of a jammer, because I doubt such help would be forthcoming if I had one.

Maybe a jammer makes sense if you are college kid that is going to fight tooth and nail, spending several days in court, or have enough money where you are going to pay a lawyer $1,000 to fight a $500 ticket. Maybe my opinion would change if all of the tickets that I get (err, I mean a friend of mine gets) out-of-state had an actual impact on my driving record. Thoughts?
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[rmmcdaniel]

I agree with your post. I am currently contemplating whether or not to get a laser jammer with my new M3, as I split time between Chicago and SF, and jammers are illegal in both IL and CA. I would likely get the new Escort 9500ci where the jammers are turned off by default and I could quickly turn them off if I got pulled over, but like you said, the officer is going to know and will likely just get further infuriated.

I definitely agree with your comments on "what to do if pulled over". I have always followed what you said to the book and it has resulted in many reduced violations or being let off with a warning. Last summer I got clocked by a trooper going 93 in a 55, passing a row of three (very slow moving) cars on a two-lane county road. I could have got thrown in the slammer and license revoked for reckless driving no question, but I was very cordial and honest with the office and he appreciated it (even told me so). He gave me a ticket for 25 over that put 1/3 the points on my record and let me keep my license. My insurance increase was very minimal (it was the first ticket I had in about three years, which obviously helped).

BTW - You are lucky that NY doesn't assess points for out-of-state speeding violations. NY is one of the few remaining states that doesn't fully follow the Driver License Compact (DLC)/Agreement (DLA) or whatever it's currently called.

[ersin]

I agree with you too. However, I do have a jammer and it has worked for me. I consider it vital to get behind a "rabbit" -- someone that wants to go fast. Get behind but keep them in sight and generally they will be the one to get the ticket. That's also when your V1 will save you from laser (it has the best laser detection of all the detectors) since you won't be the one in front. And it also helps to keep the cop from knowing who has the jammer.

Cops are generally cool. If you don't BS them you probably have a chance of him or her letting you go. And don't ever admit to anything is a very good general rule too. If you have a detector or jammer, it's best to turn them off when being pulled over, if you can without being caught.

Since most accidents (I believe) are caused by inattentiveness and poor judgement, don't get distracted. And if you are paying attention and looking well ahead and behind, (like you should) your chances of not getting a ticket are much better (as well as being a safer driver).

[J08M3]

to sum it all up - use common sense and you won't have problems. if you're gonna act like an idiot you're going to get treated like an idiot.

[E394KEN]

Sherrifs and CHP in my area are all a**holes. Local cops are ok.

[jm1234]

Originally Posted by E394KEN

Sherrifs and CHP in my area are all a**holes. Local cops are ok.

If you've met any sizable fraction of the [Sherrifs or CHP] force while driving then maybe that's the reason for your opinion of them?

They can't all be a**holes.

[ideliver]

I agree with your post.

Traffic violations are about revenue first and safety second. If you do not believe me...then why do many cities shorten the yellows (which is well known to INCREASE accidents) when they install redlight cameras.

That being said...I have an ongoing thought that a person should be able to get a "speeding license" for limited access roads. You pay extra for it (pick a number...$500/yr) and you get to speed without worry about tickets.

If you cause an accident...you get driving suspended and can only get a regular license.

[mkoesel]

Your post was well thought out, and I commend you for putting such time into it.

But, given your apparent propensity for cutting though the BS, I am a bit surprised that you think you can just rack up out of state tickets ad infinitum and never have it come back and bite you in the ass. I think you are being extremely optimistic in that regard.

Oh sure, I know the routine - I used to speed through Ohio on I-80 at 120mph on my way to Richmond (south of Cleveland) twice a week. I knew that, if I did get caught - well I was quite f#cked because Ohio State cops are known to be hard asses and you will get tossed in jail potentially - but no, more to the point I knew that Ohio does not have reciprocity with Michigan and therefore my insurance and driving record would be safe.

But realistically, if I (or you) did get caught, and got caught doing something bad enough, often enough I think some angry judge would eventually figure out your gig and make some phone calls. I mean, if cops aren't stupid, then judges are less so. I am sure the right person would find a way within their far reaching legal means to make your life suck.

As for the jammers, yeah that's kind of ghetto. Almost Smokey and The Bandit or BJ and the Bear or something. You're driving a BMW not a Camaro or Monte Carlo or whatever. Personally I prefer to go it blind, I've never owned a radar detector, and certainly not a jammer, and have never been cited for speeding on an expressway. Ok there was the one, but it was my fault for not checking my mirrors and for coming off an entrance ramp way too fast when I know that's really dumb. But anyway, you know, turn off your tracking computer and use the Force, and all that. But seriously, I feel like those devices will just give me a false sense of security. I mean like you say, nothing can save your from a laser.

Just my two cents though.

[Seth_Horwitz]

BJ and the Bear... that was pretty funny. I suppose a judge could go out of his way, but I never make it that far. In fact, the New Jersey Department of Finance web site is as much contact as I have with "the system" after getting a summons. Because they scan your NY license when you get pulled over, it always shows as clean as long you keep your NY record clean. I should be OK until NY signs on to the nationwide agreement but, to be honest, we seem to like to go at it alone. (I hope it stays that way.)

[ersin]

Originally Posted by Seth_Horwitz

... I should be OK until NY signs on to the nationwide agreement but, to be honest, we seem to like to go at it alone. (I hope it stays that way.)

I wish it were true, but I don't think that will happen. I'm pretty sure the federal government has mandated that all states sign up for this. We'll have to wait and see.

Most cops are not a**holes. Very few are. However, everybody's entitled to a bad day once in a while. Remember that cops experience the ugly side of humanity more than the good, and they have heard all the excuses from people they pull over. It's best to not try and BS your way out of a ticket. But don't admit to anything if you're pulled over. Argue in court because you won't win this argument with a cop. And if you go to court, or try to beat the system then it's best to get (or be) a lawyer specializing in this.

Of course having said that, there are pressures on cops. Some from the municipality that pays them, for example, that want them to write more tickets for more money. Most cops don't really like doing this, unless there is nothing else for them to do. You also have to remember that governments always feel strapped for money and when the red light camera people come marketing their wares it sounds like pennys from heaven. So yeah, it's clear the local governments often play these games, under the guise of safety, for more money. But not all cops are happy about it either.

There has also been a shift in LEO attitudes. This comes across as machismo and I can see why they're perceived as a**holes. I guess you have to blame it on 9-11, I don't know. But since then the LE community has become more technologically advanced, better trained, yet more closed. That is to say, it's an "us against them" mentality. This attitude IMO is bad. Fortunately, there are still cops who want to do the right thing. They get out there and mingle with the public. I wish we could see more of them.

[ihyln]

Originally Posted by ersin

I guess you have to blame it on 9-11, I don't know.

Oh god, they got you too? Guilliani? My cat threw up. 9/11.

Cops aren't "required" to write tickets all day. They ARE required to make stops during the day and the off chance that "nothing happens" during their shift (and it's extremely rare) they don't get spanked.

Once in a while they will be told to enforce seatbelts on a particular day/week (like the whole click it or ticket ad campaign) or something else but it is illegal to tell cops go out and write as many tickets as possible to make money.

source: cousin is a nj state trooper and my friends are mostly local cops.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Seth_Horwitz

BJ and the Bear... that was pretty funny. I suppose a judge could go out of his way, but I never make it that far. In fact, the New Jersey Department of Finance web site is as much contact as I have with "the system" after getting a summons.

Ok well, just be careful. Depending on what speeds we are talking about you could wind up getting cited for an offense that will leave you no choice but to appear in front of a judge. I'm sure that somewhere, someone has a record of all the tickets in your name. Though, on the other hand. I certainly would not put it past the local government to have absolutely no system to cross reference said records when someone comes into court for a driving offense. I wouldn't want to test that though.

[ersin]

Originally Posted by ihyln

Oh god, they got you too? Guilliani? My cat threw up. 9/11.

This is not why they write tickets, it's why the attitude has changed. Things have changed in law enforcement since 9/11. Some good, some bad.

[ersin]

Originally Posted by PencilGeek

Not sure if this changes your opinion about jammers, but the Escort 9500ci has a cool feature when it comes to jamming. It jams for a few seconds -- giving you enought time to slow down. Then it turns itself off. It does this -- with the assumption that the cop will try lasering you again after the first attempt failed. When he does, and after your speed has been reduced, everything appears works just fine.

Others do this too. My Lidatek LE-30 (and LE-20 before that) do it that way. They market it like you spell it out. But in reality, the duty cycle is this way it is because otherwise the lasers they use would burn out.

[ihyln]

Originally Posted by ersin

This is not why they write tickets, it's why the attitude has changed. Things have changed in law enforcement since 9/11. Some good, some bad.

It was always an "us against them" mentality. Nothing has changed. Quite frankly, I'm sick of hearing everything being blamed on 9/11. Although, this discussion is an entirely different topic.

[ersin]

BTW, contrary to popular belief (and what cops believe or want you to believe), detectors and jammers can save you from getting your speed measured with laser. But nothing will save you if you're not paying attention.

[ersin]

Originally Posted by ihyln

It was always an "us against them" mentality. Nothing has changed. Quite frankly, I'm sick of hearing everything being blamed on 9/11. Although, this discussion is an entirely different topic.

I wasn't blaming it on 9/11, just providing my observations. Sure, plenty cops have always had the "us against them" attitude, but it seems to have grown exponentially among the group since 9/11. Part of this topic is that cops can be cool. It's still true. You be frank with the cop and human nature says he'll be easier on you, ... most, but not all, of the time.

[ihyln]

Originally Posted by ersin

BTW, contrary to popular belief (and what cops believe or want you to believe), detectors and jammers can save you from getting your speed measured with laser. But nothing will save you if you're not paying attention.

Slightly lame V1 story.

I'm driving down the Garden State Parkway yesterday to meet some friends for lunch, I think the exit after PNC Arts Center and I'm in the left lane leading a pack of cars doing about 85mph. There's another pack in front of me I'd say about a 1/4 mile ahead also going slightly slower than us, probably 70-75 and we're gaining on them. All of a sudden that pack clears an overpass and my V1 goes from silent to 2 sources ahead with a strong Ka signal. Immediately I hit my brakes and move over into the middle lane doing 65mph. I wondered if it was a false alarm but I saw sporadic brake lights up ahead and I knew something was up. As I go past the overpass I see two state troopers and I gently pat my V1. I saw the Christmas lights go after a few poor souls who probably wondered what the F I was doing. And then till my exit at 123 I had a grey Honda accord follow me the whole time trying to make use of my V1.

[Seth_Horwitz]

Originally Posted by ihyln

I saw the Christmas lights go after a few poor souls who probably wondered what the F I was doing.

Maybe I'm an awful human being, but I love that feeling. I slam on the brakes and dive to the middle lane, and the guy behind me gives me a weird look while he speeds passed me. I give him back a similar weird look when he's parked on the side of the road with Ol' Smokey writing up his summons.

[ersin]

Originally Posted by Seth_Horwitz

Maybe I'm an awful human being, but I love that feeling. I slam on the brakes and dive to the middle lane, and the guy behind me gives me a weird look while he speeds passed me. I give him back a similar weird look when he's parked on the side of the road with Ol' Smokey writing up his summons.

Nah, I kinda feel sorry for them. Something like that happened to me once. When the guy past me I flashed my lights but he ignored me. I suppose he thought I was a jerk or maybe something even worse -- a BMW driver. I guess this was the only time I didn't feel for someone pulled over.

[Seth_Horwitz]

Originally Posted by ersin

Nah, I kinda feel sorry for them.

You confirmed it. I'm an awful human being.

[ersin]

Originally Posted by Seth_Horwitz

You confirmed it. I'm an awful human being.

You're worse. A BMW driver!