Scary rod bearing thread s85

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

dont jump in in the middle read some more of the thread. kawasaki builds nascar engines? probably has a little bit of work with clearance. just a guess.

What works well in a race engine doesn't necessarily work well in a street engine, and what works well in a street engine doesn't necessarily work well in a race engine. BMW has to thread the line of both with the M3, making an engine happy in both roles. Kawasaki's experience may not fully apply.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Honestly, I don't believe that.

BMW has reasons for what they do. Engine bearing clearances are not a new thing, nor are they new to using high revving engines hard. They had some reason for doing what they did.

I hate to tell you but turning 8400 is not really considered high rpm.

Originally Posted by tdott

Ok then prove it, or atleast show something to back up your claim? What experience do you have with bearing clearances?

14 years of building race car engines, not just Nascar engines either.

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

dont jump in in the middle read some more of the thread. kawasaki builds nascar engines? probably has a little bit of work with clearance. just a guess.

Thanks for the kind words sir.

Originally Posted by Obioban

What works well in a race engine doesn't necessarily work well in a street engine, and what works well in a street engine doesn't necessarily work well in a race engine. BMW has to thread the line of both with the M3, making an engine happy in both roles. Kawasaki's experience may not fully apply.

You are right, what works well in one might not work in the other. However we along with many other companies run much smaller crank pins than the s65 does, clearance is clearance, if you look at he relationship of pin diameter to clearance every engine in the world is prettty much the same ratio We turn waaayyy more rpm with a larger assembly. No engine in the world has the piston speed that we do. Yes even F1 does not have the stress that we have. Even with the smaller pin we dont run that tight. Why, because the bearings would look like they went through hell, as a matter of fact they would look just like all the ones people are posting pictures of. You know the ones with massive cavitation going on. So even if you look at someone that builds s65, like some of the companies that do strokers I wonder why they all open the clearance up.

[e92zero]

I would hate to see this thread get closed like many others. I think at this point BMRLVR, regular_guy, and kawasaki00 has established themselves as someone with great insight, and personal first hand experience with engine work, be it with the S65, S85, or other engines. I searched and found numerous pictures and threads on bearing issues with the S85 as they reach higher mileage. There is also evidence that Dinan and another well established engine builder in LA that opened the clearance up on the stroker build for the RD. I also noticed that these guys are not pushing to sell any of their product onto us so I don't see them making up or blowing this bearing problem up for personal gain/benefit. BMW is also a business, I hate to say it it but I don't believe their target is to build engines that last forever. This would make absolutely no business sense. If I have to guess, their target is more than likely to make sure their engines can last through the warranty period + some margin and perform well during this period. In this, they succeeded. Just my dumb 2 cents. Cheers!

Is the verdict out on the Mobil 0-40 as a good alternative? I am thinking maybe to use that for my own car (not suggesting it to anyone else) during the winter months and back to the tws during summer when it can get hot. Thoughts?

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

So even if you look at someone that builds s65, like some of the companies that do strokers I wonder why they all open the clearance up.

Um, well, er, because they know what they're doing and don't want the engine failing, especially Dinan with a 2 year warranty? There. Rhetorical question answered.

Back on the subject of 0W40 Mobil1 for a sec...you mentioned earlier about not wanting to necessarily use it at the track, etc, but the HTHS rating of 0W40 M1 is rather strong, no? In a way, this (this meaning my need for education) all comes back to the post I made much earlier in this thread about oil(s) that nobody would/could answer.

[Leonardo629]

yes guys, M1 0W40 is a very robust oil that is approved for Nissan GT-R and even a Porsche GT3.

My M3 sort of has been the guinea pig for this 40wt oil experiment, and so far so good.

Look my for my UOA on BITOG if you want, no bearing wear what so ever.

CSBM5 is right, I'm only using this oil because it flows well when cold, and HTHS is approved for European cars, you can't just pour in any 40wt synthetic.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Um, well, er, because they know what they're doing and don't want the engine failing, especially Dinan with a 2 year warranty? There. Rhetorical question answered.

Back on the subject of 0W40 Mobil1 for a sec...you mentioned earlier about not wanting to necessarily use it at the track, etc, but the HTHS rating of 0W40 M1 is rather strong, no? In a way, this (this meaning my need for education) all comes back to the post I made much earlier in this thread about oil(s) that nobody would/could answer.

I was being sarcastic, guess most didnt catch that, they know what they are doing so they opened up the clearance.
Just because I wouldnt use it at the track doesnt mean it wont work, I know 2 guys that track e46s that run it. It is my choice not to run it to 300 degrees but I know those that do.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by Leonardo629

yes guys, M1 0W40 is a very robust oil that is approved for Nissan GT-R and even a Porsche GT3.

My M3 sort of has been the guinea pig for this 40wt oil experiment, and so far so good.

Look my for my UOA on BITOG if you want, no bearing wear what so ever.

CSBM5 is right, I'm only using this oil because it flows well when cold, and HTHS is approved for European cars, you can't just pour in any 40wt synthetic.

I have been running it for a while too, have quite a few miles including a good 6hr beating on a mountain run last weekend.
I 100% agree with it MUST be the 0w-40 mobil 1, it is different than any other on the market and actually it is different thatn most other mobil 1 products. It is one of those "special" products they make. The best thing is that is it available everywhere and is not that expensive on sale.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

I was being sarcastic, guess most didnt catch that, they know what they are doing so they opened up the clearance.

Yeah, I know. I just assumed it might have flown over the heads of some.

[VCMpower]

So , in reflection to all of this. Removing all the motors and re-sizing is obviously not feasible or necessary. Does this lead to a final path of choosing the right oil for your particular driving, climate, ect. And also not pushing the car over x rpm/load when cold, like many have mentioned? I ask the 3 "experts" this as you can help ease the stress that I can feel so many have. Again, if you feel death is imminent, come out and say we all have borrowed time, put a solid case together and let us approach BMW. I also do not want this thread closed but would like to see some resolution or cautions that the masses can take and begin to enjoy their cars again with confidence. Or buy a Mercedes? I know what steps I am taking and have had 3 of these S65's apart and have not seen signs of concern, but this accounts for the huge amount of S65's out there.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by VCMpower

So , in reflection to all of this. Removing all the motors and re-sizing is obviously not feasible or necessary. Does this lead to a final path of choosing the right oil for your particular driving, climate, ect. And also not pushing the car over x rpm/load when cold, like many have mentioned? I ask the 3 "experts" this as you can help ease the stress that I can feel so many have. Again, if you feel death is imminent, come out and say we all have borrowed time, put a solid case together and let us approach BMW. I also do not want this thread closed but would like to see some resolution or cautions that the masses can take and begin to enjoy their cars again with confidence. Or buy a Mercedes? I know what steps I am taking and have had 3 of these S65's apart and have not seen signs of concern, but this accounts for the huge amount of S65's out there.

This is my plan, I am sitting at 44k right now. I am going to run the 0w for the next 16k miles changing it at every 4k. It is only 75 bucks for a oil change with the mobil so the cost is no big deal. At 60k I am going to drop the pan, because it is pretty easy to do, and pull a bearing and look at it. If it looks bad I will change them out and go on down the road and I will probably have the car sold before it gets to 100k anyway. If I do change bearings I am going to run the 0wt fromt the get go and reinspect at 70k. That will give a good idea on what we expect to see with the lighter oil.
I think most of us on this forum drive our car harder than most normal cruisers. This could also be why it seems to be a bigger deal on here. I drive the car hard and will continue to do so, if I didn't take it over 6k I would drive the wifes 328

[VCMpower]

Thanks I will follow your findings.

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

This is my plan, I am sitting at 44k right now. I am going to run the 0w for the next 16k miles changing it at every 4k. It is only 75 bucks for a oil change with the mobil so the cost is no big deal. At 60k I am going to drop the pan, because it is pretty easy to do, and pull a bearing and look at it. If it looks bad I will change them out and go on down the road and I will probably have the car sold before it gets to 100k anyway. If I do change bearings I am going to run the 0wt fromt the get go and reinspect at 70k. That will give a good idea on what we expect to see with the lighter oil.
I think most of us on this forum drive our car harder than most normal cruisers. This could also be why it seems to be a bigger deal on here. I drive the car hard and will continue to do so, if I didn't take it over 6k I would drive the wifes 328

[e92zero]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

This is my plan, I am sitting at 44k right now. I am going to run the 0w for the next 16k miles changing it at every 4k. It is only 75 bucks for a oil change with the mobil so the cost is no big deal. At 60k I am going to drop the pan, because it is pretty easy to do, and pull a bearing and look at it. If it looks bad I will change them out and go on down the road and I will probably have the car sold before it gets to 100k anyway. If I do change bearings I am going to run the 0wt fromt the get go and reinspect at 70k. That will give a good idea on what we expect to see with the lighter oil.
I think most of us on this forum drive our car harder than most normal cruisers. This could also be why it seems to be a bigger deal on here. I drive the car hard and will continue to do so, if I didn't take it over 6k I would drive the wifes 328

Thanks, I will definitely be following your finding too.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by tdott

Ok then prove it, or atleast show something to back up your claim? What experience do you have with bearing clearances?

I don't think this should be about credentials because short of a BMW recall, many people here aren't going to change their mind. I'll post the company credentials at the end and you tell me if that changes minds. I don't think it will.

Here's what I can tell you.

The industry strandard bearing clearance specs have been around for decades. I really don't know how long but it's probably 70+ years by now. People like Kawasaki, BMRLVR, and myself are trying to share this information in a way that we hope most people will understand and learn from it. The specs I posted early in this thread were generated by a shop with the following credentials.

• 50 years of racing and street car engine experience.
• 1x Indy-500 winning motor
• 1x 24-hours of Lemans winning motor
• Multi 12-hours of Sebring winning motors
• Multi IMSA, USAC, and SCCA championship motors.
• Parent company (now closed):
  • 26x Indy-500 winning motors.
  • Multi World record speed boat motors.
  • Designed and built prototype motors for Chrysler, GM, McLaren.
  • Four books currently on sale on amazon.com about this company and/or the motors they have built.

This shouldn't be about credentials IMO, but about common sense. Industry standards have been established based on decades of research and experience. BMW chose to ignore them, and none of us know exactly why. We do know motors are wearing prematurely and the bearings being shown exhibit classic signs of too little bearing clearance. As part of one engine build, the shop above spec'd all of the clearances, crank side play, valve spring seat pressure, etc. They measured all of the stuff that an experienced race shop will measure. The project came to a halt the moment the bearing clearances were measured and it was recommended to change them. As a back up, two OEM and one aftermarket cranks were measured, and two sets of OEM and two sets of aftermarket rods were measured. All of them were consistent with each other, at 0.001" clearance for rods and mains. When this thread popped up, it seemed like a good time to share the data. Kawasaki provided invaluable information both to corroborate our shop findings, and his expertise with oil analysis. Everybody is free to accept or ignore this information and believe BMW made the right decision. The only unanswered question seems to be with respect to oil pressure with stock vs. increased clearance, and oil flow analysis on the stock oil pump. Rest assured that information will come eventually. We have already made plans to send the factory pump out for analysis. It will only be a matter of time (unfortunately many months ahead) before all of the missing pieces will be available for further analysis.

I hope this helps.

[M3PO]

Originally Posted by Longwong

I agree with another fellow who questioned several random people who are not engineers let alone engineers who designed, built and specced the s65 engine for the M division. The tws for the e46 may have been a "fix" but the s65 was designed with plenty of time to look at bearing clearences and oil choices. I really find it hard to believe a few random guys know better than the m division.

After reading a lot, I really feel it is often the guys who do not get their oil temps high enough consistently and don't drive the car consistently hard enough to get the oil up to a good temp. I have always followed strictly keeping revs low until oil temps up to near middle. Then I daily push the car hard enough to keep the oil needle at the middle or higher in summer. Car has almost 60k, runs stronger than the day I bought it new and change oil every 7500 since day 1. Change sparks every 10k-15k, air filter every 7500 and drive it like I stole it once engine is warm.

I believe the M division knows what clearences to pick and which oil to use. It just seems silly to think they made the wrong decision. Rather people buy the wrong car and don't use the m3 and the s65 engine for how it was built and designed which is to get the operating temps nice and high, and use the high revs which inherently get the oil hot.

You can't design an oil and engine for all walks of life. The focus of the car was to make power at high rpms and to push the car. So that is how they designed it and spec'ed the oil. If you never push the car than the m3 was not designed and likely it is those people who suffer from the bearing issues IMO

I do all of that and mine is showing the bearing issues (wear metals in the oil 4x average). I have 60K miles also. And mine runs as good or better than new also.

It sounds crazy that the M engineers blew it (especially after the bearing issues in the past) but the evidence (and knowledge) in this thread is pretty overwhelming IMO.

I think you are sticking your head in the sand...

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by tdott

Yes, but there was a recall for that. None for s85 or s65 rod bearings.

A friend's 245K original '01 s54 motor. Still going strong. While some may have an issue, there are some that don't. Problem is no one had hard facts on failure rates.

The implications of three different engines from the same manufacturer having a recall for bearings could definitely tarnish a companies reputation, no?

As I mentioned before, many people either put very low mileage on their S65/85's since they are treated as toy cars or, the fact that a lot of the people that put high mileage on their cars use them as grocery getters and never push them makes it hard to get definitive failure rates. I honestly think that if these engines are kept under 7500 RPM they will have almost zero issues!

Originally Posted by Longwong

Yes because they wanted to limited the power so the m3 at the time and then the z4m could have more power. Wow you don't know these engine history. That is one of the most talked about thing if one knows the s54 history. Had zero to do with engine problems

So even if that was the reason for the reduced redline, BMW stated publicly that due to the lower redline, M coupes and roadsters did not need to have the bearing recall performed!

Guilty as charged, I admittedly do not know the history of the S54 as much as that of the S65. but you are wrong, it had lots to do with the engine problems.

By the way, I was able to find the S54 bearing clearances on TIS last night...... 0.02mm-0.05mm expressed in standard mearure that is 0.00078" to 0.00196" ....... Since in my experience most manufacturers build their engines to the tight side of the tolerances, it is clear to me that the S54 also has a potential clearance issue.

Originally Posted by aussiem3

There no consensus at this stage ... it's not that clear cut.

This is correct but my thoughts are, use either the M1 0W40 or T6 5W40 if you want to prolong the life of your bearings. At the measured factory clearances of the main/rod bearings of the S65/85 you stand to do too much damage to the bearings before the engine oil has reached operating temperature with the TWS. TWS is a wonderful oil, but, for a street driven car on these tight clearances it is just not properly suited!

Originally Posted by US///M3

Even after BMW admitted having rod bearing problems especially for E46 M3's that were tracked, some fanboy minion is still defending their track record.

it's like if someone says BMW engineers have a bad track record with hpfp's on the N54 and you say but my friend's car had 100k on the original pump.

Very good analogy!!!

Originally Posted by Obioban

The s54 recall was due to a production defect by the bearing manufacturer, NOT a spec/clearance change.

The reason for the issue was that the production defect caused clearances that were too tight! Yes it was a defect none the less, but, the results of the defect were reduced oil clearances which caused premature bearing wear/journal damage. I think that the oil pumps were only replaced as a precaution due to contamination of the system due to bearing/journal material getting in the pumps after the bearings had failed!

We will never know what BMW's true findings were, we are limited to their press/recall release regarding the recall....... As a person who works for a large corporation I can tell you that press releases/publications are usually more concerned with damage control than telling the entire truth!

Originally Posted by B767capt

I finally took pictures of all my S85 bearings in order. What I noticed is that bank 2 (6-10) drivers side has longer swipe marks than bank 1. Anyone know why that might be? Also on the backside of the upper shells the metal has turned a darker color behind the swipe marks. I guess that's from being too hot? Looks like #7 was just starting into the copper.

After my Rotella break in, I think I'm going with a 50/50 mix of M1 0W40 and LM 10W60 and be very careful on warm up. I will pull these again at 100K.

The differences between the banks have to do with the rotation of the engine, If the engine rotated the opposite direction the difference in wear would have moved to the opposite bank. This is quite common in V engines!

As I have told you in a previous reply, don't use the LM, take a loss on it! LM is actually worse than the TWS when cold! I honestly don't see a problem with the 0W40 by itself, we are trying to improve cold flow characteristics. the Mobil 0W40 has plenty of viscosity at higher temps as shown by it's HTHS numbers. If you are going to track the car, put something heavier in or add some Mobil 1 15W50 as Kawasaki00 recommended........ For strictly street driving, even hard mountain runs etc, the Mobil 0W40 is more than up to the task!

Originally Posted by Richbot

Seems odd that it would be consistently different across each entire bank?

Answered above ^

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Exactly. After 10+ years it's surprising anyone is even discussing this subject, but it was brought up in this thread that the S54 "had a rod bearing problem too" when the issues experienced very early in its production were manufacturing related with the bearing supplier.

The suppliers manufacturing issues caused reduced clearances which caused the issues! Many S54's running at factory specs still wear their bearings out prematurely. IMO this is a result of the BMW recommended bearing clearances that I posted above.

Originally Posted by tdott

I'm playing devils advocate here. So no need for your fanboy comment, we are saying these are different issues. S54 vs S65 bearing issues. Re: manufacturing defect vs. bearing clearance. Ie one was recalled vs. one wasn't.

I guess the debate is did BMW get the bearing clearances wrong or built it that way on purpose?

I guess general engine building specifications go against what BMW did. But we don't know why. So that leaves an owner to decide if they should go with the engine builders recommendation and live with any consequences but have him warranty the engine? Or back to BMW specs.

An owners next question should be what are the downsides of increased bearing clearance? Less power? Etc,etc.

Sorry your reading comprehension failed you.

Good point, if a manufacturer does something that causes a part on your vehicle (and many other vehicles) to fail do you replace it with a part of the same spec or do you improve on it...... It is a pretty common practice for companies in the aftermarket to improve upon, strengthen, or replace components with better than OEM parts in the automotive world. Auto manufacturers have bean counters and engineers to deal with when designing a vehicle, and trust me, I work under the constraints of both of these groups too, the fact of the matter is that many decisions are not made due to what is best or will last the longest!

I feel the bean counters may have had a big influence on the S65...... Much of the tooling and parts and R&D for the S65 came from the the S85. I am almost 100% sure that the bean counters made it necessary for the the S65 to be made without any unnecessary changes from the S85 due to the added cost involved, i.e. Crank journal diameter, main bearing bore diameter, connecting rods & pistons & bearings, all have the same part numbers the list goes on......

Originally Posted by US///M3

That constitutes a bad track record as BMRLVR pointed out. Don't waste our time with your dumb arguments. Not having a recall can be purely a financial decision since the failure usually happens on cars that are pushed hard.

Financial or reputation....... They are simply playing the law of averages, the average person won't experience an issue inside of warranty because they just use their cars to pick their kids up from school or go get groceries!

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

There are none.

+1

Originally Posted by Obioban

Honestly, I don't believe that.

BMW has reasons for what they do. Engine bearing clearances are not a new thing, nor are they new to using high revving engines hard. They had some reason for doing what they did.

See above reply regarding bean counters^

Originally Posted by tdott

I see you care less about understanding both sides than calling me dumb without any real substance to your argument.

Believe what you want, and do what you want when your bearings go. I'll be enjoying my s65 and not worry about it.

I would worry, not because your engine is guarantee to fail, but based upon info that is being posted here, bearing photos, UOA's etc you have the opportunity to try and prevent your engine from having an issue...... This whole thread, for me at least, is about educating the users on here and helping them to mitigate future issues with their engines, not to scare people or call them dumb!

Originally Posted by tdott

Ok then prove it, or atleast show something to back up your claim? What experience do you have with bearing clearances?

HA HA HA!!!! He works as an engine builder, building race engines, some of them being NASCAR engines!

Originally Posted by Obioban

What works well in a race engine doesn't necessarily work well in a street engine, and what works well in a street engine doesn't necessarily work well in a race engine. BMW has to thread the line of both with the M3, making an engine happy in both roles. Kawasaki's experience may not fully apply.

While that may be true with regards to cylinder head porting, compression ratios, camshaft profiles, etc. Bearing clearance is a fundamental of engine building and it is universal to basically all engines.

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

I hate to tell you but turning 8400 is not really considered high rpm.


14 years of building race car engines, not just Nascar engines either.


Thanks for the kind words sir.



You are right, what works well in one might not work in the other. However we along with many other companies run much smaller crank pins than the s65 does, clearance is clearance, if you look at he relationship of pin diameter to clearance every engine in the world is prettty much the same ratio We turn waaayyy more rpm with a larger assembly. No engine in the world has the piston speed that we do. Yes even F1 does not have the stress that we have. Even with the smaller pin we dont run that tight. Why, because the bearings would look like they went through hell, as a matter of fact they would look just like all the ones people are posting pictures of. You know the ones with massive cavitation going on. So even if you look at someone that builds s65, like some of the companies that do strokers I wonder why they all open the clearance up.

Good points especially on the turning 8400, what most guys don't realize is that due to the short stroke of the S65 its peak piston speed is much lower than many engines that turn a lot slower!

I read an article comparing the two ultimate engines F1 vs NASCAR, here is the link, great read: http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine..._cup_to_f1.htm

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Um, well, er, because they know what they're doing and don't want the engine failing, especially Dinan with a 2 year warranty? There. Rhetorical question answered.

Back on the subject of 0W40 Mobil1 for a sec...you mentioned earlier about not wanting to necessarily use it at the track, etc, but the HTHS rating of 0W40 M1 is rather strong, no? In a way, this (this meaning my need for education) all comes back to the post I made much earlier in this thread about oil(s) that nobody would/could answer.

Even though the question wasn't directed at me I will add my $0.02. I would use M1 0W40 it at the track as long as I was not running excessively high oil temps, adding say an M24 oil cooler might be all the added assurance a person would need to keep oil temps in check to a level where the M1 would not even be breaking a sweat!

Originally Posted by Leonardo629

yes guys, M1 0W40 is a very robust oil that is approved for Nissan GT-R and even a Porsche GT3.

My M3 sort of has been the guinea pig for this 40wt oil experiment, and so far so good.

Look my for my UOA on BITOG if you want, no bearing wear what so ever.

CSBM5 is right, I'm only using this oil because it flows well when cold, and HTHS is approved for European cars, you can't just pour in any 40wt synthetic.

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

I have been running it for a while too, have quite a few miles including a good 6hr beating on a mountain run last weekend.
I 100% agree with it MUST be the 0w-40 mobil 1, it is different than any other on the market and actually it is different thatn most other mobil 1 products. It is one of those "special" products they make. The best thing is that is it available everywhere and is not that expensive on sale.

It certainly is a wonderful oil and is approved to meet or exceed some of the toughest manufacturers testing criteria out there!

Originally Posted by VCMpower

So , in reflection to all of this. Removing all the motors and re-sizing is obviously not feasible or necessary. Does this lead to a final path of choosing the right oil for your particular driving, climate, ect. And also not pushing the car over x rpm/load when cold, like many have mentioned? I ask the 3 "experts" this as you can help ease the stress that I can feel so many have. Again, if you feel death is imminent, come out and say we all have borrowed time, put a solid case together and let us approach BMW. I also do not want this thread closed but would like to see some resolution or cautions that the masses can take and begin to enjoy their cars again with confidence. Or buy a Mercedes? I know what steps I am taking and have had 3 of these S65's apart and have not seen signs of concern, but this accounts for the huge amount of S65's out there.

For sure removing and resizing all engines is out of the question, but I definitely recommend anyone who experiences a failure to invest in having their crank journals machined before reassembly!

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

This is my plan, I am sitting at 44k right now. I am going to run the 0w for the next 16k miles changing it at every 4k. It is only 75 bucks for a oil change with the mobil so the cost is no big deal. At 60k I am going to drop the pan, because it is pretty easy to do, and pull a bearing and look at it. If it looks bad I will change them out and go on down the road and I will probably have the car sold before it gets to 100k anyway. If I do change bearings I am going to run the 0wt fromt the get go and reinspect at 70k. That will give a good idea on what we expect to see with the lighter oil.
I think most of us on this forum drive our car harder than most normal cruisers. This could also be why it seems to be a bigger deal on here. I drive the car hard and will continue to do so, if I didn't take it over 6k I would drive the wifes 328

Originally Posted by VCMpower

Thanks I will follow your findings.

Good plan!

[Richbot]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Exactly. After 10+ years it's surprising anyone is even discussing this subject, but it was brought up in this thread that the S54 "had a rod bearing problem too" when the issues experienced very early in its production were manufacturing related with the bearing supplier.

I wonder if they assemble the banks all together and got 5 rods or bearing sets from one looser lot and 5 rods or bearing sets from one tighter lot? That's all I can think of, wouldn't be oiling as it's a common supply, and wouldn't be the crank itself because if 5 rod journals are big why aren't the other five big?

Edit woops nevermind all of my teardown experience is with inline engines and BMRLVR noted it's a v-engine thing

[Richbot]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

I feel the bean counters may have had a big influence on the S65...... Much of the tooling and parts and R&D for the S65 came from the the S85. I am almost 100% sure that the bean counters made it necessary for the the S65 to be made without any unnecessary changes from the S85 due to the added cost involved, i.e. Crank journal diameter, main bearing bore diameter, connecting rods & pistons & bearings, all have the same part numbers the list goes

Hey at least we got a few upgrades to the front cover and engine management, the power delivery is a big improvement. Would have been cheaper to just put the V10 in the M3 though, damn bean counters

[VCMpower]

I agree with this, and this is what the people need to hear. As well as some of the suggestions of oil choices and what not. I can see the vast majority being just fine. That last bottom end failure showed first plugs replaced at 100k miles. Does not seem like well maintained motor and the ones that see this type of life may be more susceptible to issues. Thanks, Jamie is it?





[QUOTE=

For sure removing and resizing all engines is out of the question, but I definitely recommend anyone who experiences a failure to invest in having their crank journals machined before reassembly!





Good plan![/QUOTE]

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by VCMpower

I agree with this, and this is what the people need to hear. As well as some of the suggestions of oil choices and what not. I can see the vast majority being just fine. That last bottom end failure showed first plugs replaced at 100k miles. Does not seem like well maintained motor and the ones that see this type of life may be more susceptible to issues. Thanks, Jamie is it?

Your welcome, and yes it is Jamie!

[BMRLVR]

Here are some photos of a connecting rod bearing from an MTU 16V 4000 series engine with 15000 HRS on it (15000 HRS translates into roughly 300,000 miles for a regular passenger car). This engine has a bore of 165mm and stroke of 190mm and displaces just over 4.062L per cylinder for a total of 65L. Each piston and rod assembly weighs 44 LBS. The engine makes 2700 HP with about 7250 Lb/Ft of torque with a maximum engine speed of 2100 RPM. These engines don't have an easy life, they live in a 320 ton haul truck and operate at full load almost 100% of the time. Full life of an engine like this is 20,000 hours between rebuilds so at 3/4 life take a look at the bearing.....







If you look you will see ever so slight scuffing on one shell but for the equivalent of 300,000 miles I think we can all agree that the bearing is in good shape. To be honest, most engines I take apart the bearings look good...... be it a small block chevy of which I have rebuilt many with my Dad over the years, a VW 1.8L or VW VR6, the bearings are usually in good shape compared to the photos I have seen of BMW S54/S65/S85 with relatively low mileage. So BMW does have a bearing issue no doubt, I am 100% sure that some additional oil clearance will rectify it!

[vinniechin]

This is an EPIC thread. Thanks to the main contributors/experts giving us the guidance a commoner like me would never fully understand. We appreciate the information and all you have done to arm us with some insight.

[flint]

Originally Posted by vinniechin

This is an EPIC thread. Thanks to the main contributors/experts giving us the guidance a commoner like me would never fully understand. We appreciate the information and all you have done to arm us with some insight.

+1 and with my warranty expiring this month, this made my extended warranty decision an easy one.