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12-17-2007, 06:16 PM | #111 | |
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12-17-2007, 06:31 PM | #112 |
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I seem to be a thread assassin by nature.... not that anyone reads my bungled posts...
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12-17-2007, 06:34 PM | #113 |
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12-17-2007, 06:37 PM | #114 | |
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We can speculate a bit about the scales of cost, volumes of dollars involved here and potential for profit or loss. Take the closest competitor, the 997T. Porsche makes about 18% profit on its vehicles. Probably a bit more on the more expensive vehicles like the turbo, say 20%. This means the cost of that car is about .8 x $110k (approximate dealer invoice, not price to consumer) = $88k, which includes cost of parts, as well as marketing, etc. The GT-R is similar in technology but definitely a notch higher. Is it realistic to believe that Nissan can prioduce the GT-R for 20% less in way lower volumes than the Porsche? Keep in mind a lot of the regular 911 production lines can be used for Turbo production as well. My thought is for sure they can not. The 20% improvement would be required just to break even on the car. My bet is that the car will cost Nissan at least $85k to produce and market. Perhaps since the volume is so low the investment in the production facilities can be less, helping to control costs. Let's look at some common and close to heart examples using similar numbers and figure out profits: Camry: ~5x10^5 cars/yr, margin ~.05, $2x10^4/car, profit ~$500M/yr M3: ~1.5x10^4 cars/yr, margin ~.2, $6X10^4/car ~$180M/yr 997 Turbo ~2.5x10^3 cars/yr. margin ~.2, $1x10^5 ~$50M GT-R: ~1.5x10^3, margin ~-.3 ((85-65)/65), ~$6.5x10^4/car ~-$29M Even if Nissan got the GT-R costs a whoping 15% better than the 911 it would still be a 15% loss per vehicle and about a $15M/yr loss. We can agrue, estimate, speculate, etc. all day about labor costs in different parts of the world, currency exchange rates, prices of the vehicles in different countries, etc. but the above is simply an order of magnitude type of calculation. What I think it shows is that Nissan will lose money on the GT-R. And NO dammit, for the millionth time, this does not mean I don't love the bloody car! It is simply interesting. |
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12-17-2007, 06:40 PM | #115 | |
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12-17-2007, 06:45 PM | #116 | |
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but this one is right? it's called damage control... we'll know next year what the 'reality' is once an across the counter car is tested by sportAUTO... |
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12-17-2007, 06:46 PM | #117 | |
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12-17-2007, 06:51 PM | #118 | |
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I know you are one the engineers the M Division has contracted with to develop M-DCT, but I didn't know you were also Ben Bernanke's right hand man. |
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12-17-2007, 07:05 PM | #119 | |
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I'd much rather discuss my quest for causality and consistency in the automotive performance domain... But if you really want me to re-hash all of my personal criteria and weightings, etc., here we go... I have explained my personal rationale to you (and to others and to the whole forum) time and time again yet you refuse to listen. Price to performance is at the top of my list but it is not the sole criteria. Indeed if it was, I would have been on the list for the GT-R long ago. However, let's not even get into the discussion as to whether or not you will be able to actually buy the car without a HUGE markup (you would rightly assume my belief is that you won't)... Anyway, my personal criteria are a solid mixture of price to performance, a true daily driver, an automated manual (almost a firm requirement at this point), four real seats, trackable, great looks and an above average level of luxury, comfort and build quality. Did I build my requirements around making the M3 the only fit or is this truly the car I want independent of the existence of the M3, probably a little bit of both honestly, but I do believe it is more of the latter. Where does the GT-R fall short, for me and in light of the above criteria? It is mostly the 4 real seats and the looks, which we all know are nearly 100% subjective. You can view it any way you like but given how much I have praised the car and how much of a fan of technology you know I am do you think I am lying about this? Really what do you think? Do you think I only say I love the car and secretly I am fuming that it will stomp the M3 for about the same price? I really could not care less. My quest for data, simulations, analogies, etc. for the GT-R is a quest for CONSISTENCY, really that is it. Physics, math and engineering are way more important to me than cars. Until the car can be understood from this perspective and its performance is justified by its specs and the physics, all will not be well and at rest with swamp. It is really quite simple. Again, take it at face value or not. I am getting tired of explaining myself. Finally, no, the new M3 is certainly not perfect but for me it seems awfully close. How many have found it has excellent steering or excellent with only very minor criticisms? How many have found no problems with the brakes? The former is highly subjective and the latter is also to some extent depending on the roads or tracks you are on and how good of a driver you are. I'll drive any car including the M3 before any final decisions are made. Unfortunately, it is very unlikely I (nor most) will have the chance to flog it nor flog it on a track before making a purchasing decision. Hence it pays to be as well informed as possible and that is a huge value of this forum. |
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12-17-2007, 07:13 PM | #120 | |
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I quoted the original poster and gave him credit. I mentioned in that thread that I specifically thought the topic was of enough interest to repost it in its own thread. Clearly by the volume of the replies and discussion that was a justified opinion. Bruce A. called me out on not being 100% certain on this and for using a too aggresive diction in my post title. I simply agreed with him on both counts. |
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12-17-2007, 07:14 PM | #121 |
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12-17-2007, 08:28 PM | #122 | |
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12-17-2007, 08:47 PM | #123 | |
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12-17-2007, 09:32 PM | #124 | |
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The line-by-line cost accounting approach is more micro - which makes Swamp Buffet's right-hand man
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Just thinking of something not so witty ///M3 E92 '09 Jerez Black | 6MT | Ext Fox Red | Tech | Prem | 19s |Heated Seats | iPod |Smartphone | Euro Deliv June 09 Sold: 540iT / 530i / 323i |
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12-18-2007, 02:22 AM | #125 |
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This thread has got more air time than most and as of yet no one has officially given the car a full roadtest, never mind half a dozen so we have some useful data to work on.
The bottom line is that until some well respected magazines do a full roadtest, including dyno figures we may be speculating about all of this for nothing. |
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12-18-2007, 07:13 AM | #126 | |
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Last edited by gbb357; 12-18-2007 at 10:17 AM.. |
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12-18-2007, 07:36 AM | #127 | |
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The profitability of Halo cars, like factory racing efforts, can not be judged by the P&L of the product itself. |
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12-18-2007, 08:48 AM | #128 | |
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12-18-2007, 10:10 AM | #129 | |
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Just my .02
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"...it's not about the money and not about the brand of the car, it's about handling,performance and passion......And that, no other car has all together like an M3........when you talk about the most complete car the M is invincible." --Tony Kanaan. |
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12-18-2007, 11:29 AM | #130 | |
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12-18-2007, 12:39 PM | #131 |
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I found some more evidence that somehow must be doctored!
http://www.gtrblog.com/index.php?blo...&c=1&tb=1&pb=1
Tsukuba Circuit Lap Time Nismo Skyline GT-R (R34) Z Tune 1 min 01.150 secs Nissan GT-R (Stock) 1 min 1:931 secs Ferrari 360 Challenge Stra' 1 min 02.440 secs Lamborghini Gallardo 1 min 03.605 secs Honda NSX-R 1 min 03.920 secs McLaren F1 1 min 04.620 secs Porsche 997 Turbo 1 min 04.730 secs Murcielago 1 min 04.760 secs Z-Tune 1 min 05.100 secs*(diff day diff driver) EVO IX RS 1 min 05.528 secs 997 Carrera 4 1 min 05.980 secs Corvette Z06 1 min 06.020 secs Lancer Evo IX 1 min 06.060 secs NA1 NSX-R 1 min 06.198 secs Nismo GT-R S Tune 1 min 06.232 secs (340 bhp) Ferrari F40 1 min 06.460 secs WRX STI SPEC-C 1 min 06.651 secs ( Current STI) NA1 NSX-R 1 min 06.80 secs (same race as F40) BMW M5 1 min 06.560 secs STI S204 1 min 06.800 secs BMW M6 1 min 07.434 secs 350Z S Version 1 min 08.110 secs BMW M3 1 min 08.200 secs Audi RS4 1 min 08.368 secs Supra Euro Version 330 bhp 1 min 08.460 secs Mazda RX-7 1 min 08.70 secs RX-8 A Spec 1 min 09.430 secs Nissan 300ZX 1 min 10.70 secs |
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12-18-2007, 03:16 PM | #132 |
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We should all just feel lucky that we have these options of vehicles right now at a mere $70k. Gotta test drive one before I decide to get the GTR over the M3 still. I already bought a 255hp 330i over a 300hp G35 after test driving both, I hope this GTR sells me. Especially since I get a huge discount (once the waitlist dies down of course) from my company.
So many good cars for $70k. M3, RS4/5, C63, maybe a newer, higher HP CaymanS, GTR... How can you guys be bitching?
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