Miscellaneous Tesla/EV debate

[Darth One]

These charging networks are going to need to eventually be open source. There's no two ways about it. We don't have gas stations exclusively for Tesla or Ford.

Has Elon commented about that, one way or another?

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by Darth One

These charging networks are going to need to eventually be open source. There's no two ways about it. We don't have gas stations exclusively for Tesla or Ford.

Has Elon commented about that, one way or another?

Not sure about that.
The only thing i know is that there are couple of standard charging types, like SAE J1772 and Chademo that are widely used in the world and gaining popularity in US. Tesla can use them as well, so as other variety of charging stations. I think it's a matter of adapter plugs. Car easily determines how to charge itself. Superchargers are free for life of your car, excluding TM3. Tesla controls the pricing on its network to make it very reasonable to charge on your road trips. This makes EV adoption much more easy. 3-rd party charging station will hammer you with the fees. At least for now.
Porsche decided to go with completely different format at 800v and charge customers for it.

[CosmosMpower]

I instructed some Tesla club members at cota a few years ago they all went into limp mode after 2 laps because the batteries got too hot. They handled like boats with a ton of body roll, not a track car.

[CosmosMpower]

Originally Posted by Takumi587

I agree charging a car after getting home from work is so much easier than finding a local gas station with good pricing. I plan on getting a Tesla Model S as a daily driver and for long trips. I drove a Model S with autopilot etc... and was sold.

Tesla vehicles are just so much more convenient to live with than ICE vehicles. No more oil changes, gas stations, etc...

I do not understand all the hate towards Tesla. It is a great company and they have disrupted the car world in a good way IMO. Competition is coming but Tesla is so far ahead in the industry that I see them as the leaders in electric vehicles for a long long time.

Getting gas is a 5 min once a week thing. Oil changes once every 3-6 months. Going out of town and planning a trip around where you can charge your car to get to your destination and around town once you get there would be annoying.

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

I instructed some Tesla club members at cota a few years ago they all went into limp mode after 2 laps because the batteries got too hot. They handled like boats with a ton of body roll, not a track car.

Maybe you should try and stay on topic instead of bringing up a large Model S.
It also probably pays to see how S class does on the track, or A8 or 7-series. Makes total sense to compare, right?


And since we are of topic
Just for fun:

Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

Getting gas is a 5 min once a week thing. Oil changes once every 3-6 months. Going out of town and planning a trip around where you can charge your car to get to your destination and around town once you get there would be annoying.

It would be nice if people were able to actually
No planning required for Tesla.
Enough range and supercharges to even think about it

[nicknaz]

I saw a 750 at a DE recently and briefly spoke with the owner. Cooling system was fine. Front tire outer shoulder was toast.

More apples to apples comparisons of p100d is e63 and m5. Those can handle track usage with no problems. Not optimal, but not limp mode situation level of bad.

PS: for the people who can already configure the dual motor cars, how early was your original reservation ?

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

I saw a 750 at a DE recently and briefly spoke with the owner. Cooling system was fine. Front tire outer shoulder was toast.

More apples to apples comparisons of p100d is e63 and m5. Those can handle track usage with no problems. Not optimal, but not limp mode situation level of bad.

PS: for the people who can already configure the dual motor cars, how early was your original reservation ?

Except that Model S never claimed nor designed to be a track car. It's simply family hauler that can humiliate exotic cars on the drag strip and seat 5 adults plus 2 kids. All this while having utility of an SUV with 100mpg.
And guess what comes more useful for every day person? Utility and space versus once-in-a-lifetime track use. Number of cars from Mercedes and BMW that see track days are in single digits percentage. Especially the large ones like Model S

[Fuller]

I don't care if the Tesla 3 is faster than an m3/4, I'd still take the m3 without hesitation or second thought. Never mind an m3, I'd happily take a 340/440i over a Tesla 3 as well, even if the price of the Tesla was reduced to that of the 3 series.

Also, electric cars aren't as environmentally friendly as we like to believe. Where does the energy to charge that battery come from? Ultimately it's derived from power plants. About 63% of the electricity produced in 2017 came from power plants run on fossil fuels (US figures). Nuclear power plants provided 20%, and all combined renewable fuels contributed about 17%.

Regardless of whether you drive a car with an ICE or battery, driving a certain distance will still lead to carbon emissions, whether directly from the exhaust with a traditional ICE, or from the increased demand on power plants to produce sufficient energy to charge batteries. Additionally we should expect nuclear waste production to increase. I don't see this as exactly eco-friendly. At best, it's just partially converting the environmental impact to a different threat.

This isn't even speculating on how roads populated with all, or mostly, e-cars would impact demand on the infrastructure. Would this lead to building more power plants to meet the higher demand? Would most of the new plants be powered by fossil fuels or cleaner sources? Would the nation tolerate more nuclear power plants? Who is ok with them being in your back yard? How many new plants would run on renewable fuel sources, and what limitations exist on building renewable fuel plants (best locations for solar, wind turbines, coastal areas for tidal energy etc).

From what I've witnessed, wind, solar, and other renewable sources of energy require large, unsightly panels or turbines that meet stiff opposition where proposed. Everyone thinks it's a wonderful idea, but nobody wants a wind mill farm in their backyard, or turbines in their beaches. It's great as long as someone else is making the sacrifice.

To me it seems like e-cars mostly just serve to satisfy requirements born of short-sighted legislation. I suppose, at best it might be our first baby steps on the way to better long term solutions, but I have a hard time believing that it's a ground breaking solution.

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by Fuller

I don't care if the Tesla 3 is faster than an m3/4, I'd still take the m3 without hesitation or second thought. Never mind an m3, I'd happily take a 340/440i over a Tesla 3 as well, even if the price of the Tesla was reduced to that of the 3 series.

Also, electric cars aren't as environmentally friendly as we like to believe. Where does the energy to charge that battery come from? Ultimately it's derived from power plants. About 63% of the electricity produced in 2017 came from power plants run on fossil fuels (US figures). Nuclear power plants provided 20%, and all combined renewable fuels contributed about 17%.

Regardless of whether you drive a car with an ICE or battery, driving a certain distance will still lead to carbon emissions, whether directly from the exhaust with a traditional ICE, or from the increased demand on power plants to produce sufficient energy to charge batteries. Additionally we should expect nuclear waste production to increase. I don't see this as exactly eco-friendly. At best, it's just partially converting the environmental impact to a different threat.

This isn't even speculating on how roads populated with all, or mostly, e-cars would impact demand on the infrastructure. Would this lead to building more power plants to meet the higher demand? Would most of the new plants be powered by fossil fuels or cleaner sources? Would the nation tolerate more nuclear power plants? Who is ok with them being in your back yard? How many new plants would run on renewable fuel sources, and what limitations exist on building renewable fuel plants (best locations for solar, wind turbines, coastal areas for tidal energy etc).

From what I've witnessed, wind, solar, and other renewable sources of energy require large, unsightly panels or turbines that meet stiff opposition where proposed. Everyone thinks it's a wonderful idea, but nobody wants a wind mill farm in their backyard, or turbines in their beaches. It's great as long as someone else is making the sacrifice.

To me it seems like e-cars mostly just serve to satisfy requirements born of short-sighted legislation. I suppose, at best it might be our first baby steps on the way to better long term solutions, but I have a hard time believing that it's a ground breaking solution.

If you wanna talk environment, you'll find this thread home for you
http://f15.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1402190
Also, Are you a friend of Fundguy1 by any chance?
Very much alike against cleaner future.

Now,
If i charge my car with dirtiest possible fuel source, i'd still be cleaner, than ICE. You think gas just magically appears at the gas stations?


Fortunately, 1/4 of my roof has solar which produces 110% of my needs.
As more clean energy comes to the environment, the cleaner the grid becomes.
More and more population is installing solar to offset their electric bill, or just simply to be carbon-free household.
Tesla superchargers already utilize solar carports and soon most (if not all) charging station will be carbon free

You're entitled to have your opinion on the TM3 vs M3, so constructive conversation is very appreciated, especially if we stay on topic

Thank you

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

If you wanna talk environment, you'll find this thread home for you
http://f15.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1402190
Also, Are you a friend of Fundguy1 by any chance?
Very much alike against cleaner future.

Now,
If i charge my car with dirtiest possible fuel source, i'd still be cleaner, than ICE. You think gas just magically appears at the gas stations?


Fortunately, 1/4 of my roof has solar which produces 110% of my needs.
As more clean energy comes to the environment, the cleaner the grid becomes.
More and more population is installing solar to offset their electric bill, or just simply to be carbon-free household.
Tesla superchargers already utilize solar carports and soon most (if not all) charging station will be carbon free

You're entitled to have your opinion on the TM3 vs M3, so constructive conversation is very appreciated, especially if we stay on topic

Thank you

I don't know who fundguy1 is. I'm also not against lessening our environmental impact. I just don't necessarily agree that ev in the current infrastructure are as clean as we'd like to think.

Absolutely agree that I welcome opposing views. I'd actually like to be proven wrong with facts to back it. My current view on EV is pessimistic, but that's not the way I like to be.

How do you know your impact driving an EV is cleaner, even if the power comes from the dirtiest source (coal). I understand that gasoline must be shipped to refineries, refined and then shipped to service stations throughout the country, but charging a battery isn't necessarily efficient either. Each time an individual charges their battery, energy is lost. When gasoline is shipped, it's in quantities that serve many, so there is some economy of scale. My point is just that EV isn't 100% efficient either, and isn't 100% clean.

[pikkagtr]

If we really wanted to save the environment we would not produce new vehicles
I could drive my 1992 Civic for another 7-8 yrs and still be cleaner than the amount of energy required tonjust produce the Tesla battery.
This is even before you decided to plug it in
https://www.google.com/amp/s/wattsup...e-driving/amp/

So in another 8 yrs when you eventually replace that battery pack
You'd have spend a net total of 24yrs of driving a ICE car for you 8 yr old Tesla
Yikes

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

Getting gas is a 5 min once a week thing.

True, excluding time of driving to the gas station.
It is also a ~$60/week for premium gas thing (and climbing, lately).

To charge my i3 for ~300 miles of range at home costs me $0.10 * 27.2 KWh (usable from 33 KWh battery) * 2 (one full charge gets me ~150 miles) = $5.44. It actually costs me way less than that, since I charge for free at work, and at BMW-subsidized public chargers.

For the month, I save ~ $60 * 4 = ~ $240 in gas money.
That is exactly my monthly i3 lease payment ($24x.xx).

Can you say a free car !!???

Which, BTW, is the reason I first got into EVs.
The instant torque, ridiculous maneuverability around town, and blissfully silent driving and all just gravy.

Lastly - I get MORE hot women approach me at parking lots to talk about i3 on any given week than all the teenage boys who ever salivated at the M3.
I'm into the former, so, somehow (beats the hell out of me how!) i3 works out to be a clear winner in the looks department.


My i3 may, or may not, be saving the environment. I really don't know.
But a free chick-magnet daily driver - are you sure you want to argue against that !???

Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

Oil changes once every 3-6 months. Going out of town and planning a trip around where you can charge your car to get to your destination and around town once you get there would be annoying.

EVs are not for everyone, and not for spontaneous road trips.
At least not today. At east not for me. Which is why only 1 out of my 4 cars is an EV. However, i3 gets ~60% of the driven miles from my family.

Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

I instructed some Tesla club members at cota a few years ago they all went into limp mode after 2 laps because the batteries got too hot. They handled like boats with a ton of body roll, not a track car.

You are missing the point - track performance is a fig leaf!
99% of M3 owners never take their cars to track. Ever.
For the few of us who do actually drive on track - track-oriented ICE cars are still the best tool for the job.

But the vast majority of the people who can afford an M3 also have a few other cars in the garage (for various reasons). "One car only" imperative, or fantasizing about an EV fulfilling all possible automotive tasks, simply does not apply.

For a daily, an EV is perfect.
For a track car (for the few to whom that applies), M3 is OK (too heavy). Better options are plentiful.
For a 3+ person road trip + plus occasional track car, M3 is perfect.

a

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by pikkagtr

If we really wanted to save the environment we would not produce new vehicles
I could drive my 1992 Civic for another 7-8 yrs and still be cleaner than the amount of energy required tonjust produce the Tesla battery.
This is even before you decided to plug it in
https://www.google.com/amp/s/wattsup...e-driving/amp/

So in another 8 yrs when you eventually replace that battery pack
You'd have spend a net total of 24yrs of driving a ICE car for you 8 yr old Tesla
Yikes

Thanks for fake article and good job for spreading worthless read.

May wanna get a bit more educated below:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/car...udy-fake-news/

https://www.greentechmedia.com/artic...ter#gs.trXU3Oo

Tesla’s Gigafactory is carbon-neutral
The report assumes that the energy used in manufacturing the battery is 50 percent fossil-based. Tesla has long committed to making its Gigafactory carbon-neutral, and it appears to be working toward that goal. The original research states that about half of the CO2 impact of battery manufacturing occurs at the battery plant, while only 10 percent to 20 percent comes from mining and the rest comes from materials production.

That means that for the Tesla batteries, the CO2 emissions payback is halved.

https://electrek.co/2017/06/09/tesla...rid-elon-musk/

[CosmosMpower]

Originally Posted by afadeev

True, excluding time of driving to the gas station.
It is also a ~$60/week for premium gas thing (and climbing, lately).

To charge my i3 for ~300 miles of range at home costs me $0.10 * 27.2 KWh (usable from 33 KWh battery) * 2 (one full charge gets me ~150 miles) = $5.44. It actually costs me way less than that, since I charge for free at work, and at BMW-subsidized public chargers.

For the month, I save ~ $60 * 4 = ~ $240 in gas money.
That is exactly my monthly i3 lease payment ($24x.xx).

Can you say a free car !!???

How did you get a 240 lease payment on the i3, how much down?

[M3_WC]

Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

How did you get a 240 lease payment on the i3, how much down?

BMW couldn’t give them away. If I remember correctly, couple years ago they even had $99 lease specials.

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

Let’s see how those numbers hold up when the big brands fully get into the EV game. Starting with the Porsche Mission E. I fear for Telsa in a few years when the likes of Benz, Porsche, BMW, Audi are pumping out EV model after EV model.

I hope they get very serious about EVs.
I fear they might be battery constrained to be able to "pump" these out at the same rate as Tesla does

[M3_WC]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

I hope they get very serious about EVs.
I fear they might be battery constrained to be able to "pump" these out at the same rate as Tesla does

China is coming after that market. Didn’t CATL already take over the top spot in EV battery manufacturing? They supply batteries for VW, BMW, Nissan, and others.

[REDEV217342]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

Except that Model S never claimed nor designed to be a track car. It's simply family hauler that can humiliate exotic cars on the drag strip and seat 5 adults plus 2 kids. All this while having utility of an SUV with 100mpg.
And guess what comes more useful for every day person? Utility and space versus once-in-a-lifetime track use. Number of cars from Mercedes and BMW that see track days are in single digits percentage. Especially the large ones like Model S

Christ dude you are about as bad as the resident Porsche nutswinger on here with your Tesla BS. Car look like ass and sounds like hairdryer. What's wrong.....Tesla forums not active enough? I'm sure you can talk about climate change and other ways you people are "saving the world" over there.

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by M3_WC

China is coming after that market. Didn’t CATL already take over the top spot in EV battery manufacturing? They supply batteries for VW, BMW, Nissan, and others.

Well, not just yet
And may never be
But it's good to see others jump onboard
I also believe Tesla is looking to build another one, Gigafactory 2

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/04/14...tery-producer/

The new factory’s planned annual production capacity is 24 GWh by 2020, which is smaller than the Tesla Gigafactory 1’s initial target of 35 gigawatt-hours (GWh) by 2020, but CATL already has 17.5 GWh of battery production capacity. Bloomberg indicates that this would give CATL the biggest li-ion battery production capacity in the world, but it depends on how fast the factory is completed and how quickly other manufactures invest and build. Tesla’s Gigafactory 1 2020 battery production capacity is a big variable, as it was indicated that the capacity might be much larger by 2020 … but quickly increasing battery production for the Model 3 has been a bit of a challenge.

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by REDEV217342

Christ dude you are about as bad as the resident Porsche nutswinger on here with your Tesla BS. Car look like ass and sounds like hairdryer. What's wrong.....Tesla forums not active enough? I'm sure you can talk about climate change and other ways you people are "saving the world" over there.

You don't need to get defensive and attack EV owner for providing simple information here.
Topic was originally posted to General Automotive (non-BMW) Talk + Photos/Videos section, but got moved here.
I guess since we are comparing Tesla M3 Performance with BMW M3 it is legit?

I never brought up climate issue either. I just stated my view in response to someone's question

[REDEV217342]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

You don't need to get defensive and attack EV owner for providing simple information here.
Topic was originally posted to General Automotive (non-BMW) Talk + Photos/Videos section, but got moved here.
I guess since we are comparing Tesla M3 Performance with BMW M3 it is legit?

I'm not defensive at all....you make the Tesla brand to be the "next coming" and its nauseating. Great; you like the brand. We get it.

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by REDEV217342

I'm not defensive at all....you make the Tesla brand to be the "next coming" and its nauseating. Great; you like the brand. We get it.

I like the brand, yes. Just like other people like Porsche, MB, BMW, Audi, etc.
There are far more threads about those, so why such strong words?
It does feel defensive
Almost like something is disrupting the home turf