Has the M Division and BMW lost their way?

[ruff]

Originally Posted by BruceWain

IMO your thread is premature.

Most likely. Hey, we are among friends here are we not?

[BruceWain]

Originally Posted by ruff

Most likely. Hey, we are among friends here are we not?

Yeah....... I would like to think so.

[Smoltz]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

It is rather more tied to their trust in Scott26. Your definition of "baseless" differs from mine since I think the statement from Scott26 is itself some basis.

Just thought I would link an old thread where SCOTT26 makes a claim that has been proven 100% untrue...

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...&highlight=csl

He says "Unofficially what you are seeing today is a Hybrid of M3 and M3 CSL" but that isn't true at all, the car unveiled as the M3 concept, aside from having E46 CSL wheels was identical to the production model (as far as can be seen), futhermore he claims in this thread:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...&highlight=csl

that " At Frankfurt this September you will get a teaser of a lightweight CSL model which will futher integrate more lightweight elements than just have a CFR roof. but it will not be the M3."

This didn't happen as well.

My point here isn't to say that SCOTT26 isn't an insider or to doubt his claims, but rather to simply point out that given comments like those which have been proven untrue, that we should not accept what he says as gospel.

-Adam

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Smoltz

Just thought I would link an old thread where SCOTT26 makes a claim that has been proven 100% untrue...

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...&highlight=csl

He says "Unofficially what you are seeing today is a Hybrid of M3 and M3 CSL" but that isn't true at all, the car unveiled as the M3 concept, aside from having E46 CSL wheels was identical to the production model (as far as can be seen), futhermore he claims in this thread:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...&highlight=csl

that " At Frankfurt this September you will get a teaser of a lightweight CSL model which will futher integrate more lightweight elements than just have a CFR roof. but it will not be the M3."

This didn't happen as well.

My point here isn't to say that SCOTT26 isn't an insider or to doubt his claims, but rather to simply point out that given comments like those which have been proven untrue, that we should not accept what he says as gospel.

-Adam

I agree with your fundamental point here. Scott26 is not perfect. Who is? He did give us all a lot of insider tips and I am thankful for that.

Correction to the ^: The unveiled concept car was not identical to the production model in a few very minor ways (almost invisible) and other visible ways. By the former I mean the exact shape of the rear diffuser and rea bumper cover. Furthermore the concept had some nice real CF interior panels the likes of which we have not seen anything close to on a production car. Does this mean is was a hybrid between a production car and the CSL - not really IMO.

[Smoltz]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Furthermore the concept had some nice real CF interior panels the likes of which we have not seen anything close to on a production car. Does this mean is was a hybrid between a production car and the CSL - not really IMO.

Even though I haven't seen any pics of the real CF interior. I thought real CF trim was on the German pricelist? I don't read German but I thought that's what this is "Satz Interieurleisten Carbon: bestehend aus Blenden für Instrumententafel, Mittelkonsole, Mittelkonsole hinten, Türen und Seitenverkleidung hinten" it's a 1220,30 euro option (actually I think it may be an accessory) . This is on page 13 of the german M3 price list.




-Adam

[southlight]

Originally Posted by Smoltz

Even though I haven't seen any pics of the real CF interior. I thought real CF trim was on the German pricelist? I don't read German but I thought that's what this is "Satz Interieurleisten Carbon: bestehend aus Blenden für Instrumententafel, Mittelkonsole, Mittelkonsole hinten, Türen und Seitenverkleidung hinten" it's a 1220,30 euro option (actually I think it may be an accessory) . This is on page 13 of the german M3 price list.




-Adam

Right, it's available as extra equipment. Don't know if this trim is exactly the same we saw on the M3 Concept although it looks so.

Best regards, south

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Smoltz

My point here isn't to say that SCOTT26 isn't an insider or to doubt his claims, but rather to simply point out that given comments like those which have been proven untrue, that we should not accept what he says as gospel.

A very valid point. Nothing is certain until we get word from BMW.

It seems SCOTT26 works for BMW (likely via a 3rd party) filming and/or producing promotional video and print material. He appears to have a fair amount of driving experience as well. Much of his information seems to come from his first-hand experience with the cars. That is, the information he can provide with greatest accuracy are those things that one can glean simply from hands-on contact with the products. On the other hand, information about upcoming launches and their timing is likely based on inferences he makes based on comments from the people he has contact with at BMW and also on which products are on his upcoming work schedule. It seems almost certain that Scott knows details about the CSL (i.e he has had discussions about the car with people in the know), but clearly his info about when and where is not 100%.

[Stahlgrau]

Originally Posted by The CSL

I could care less that it is a bit softer or whatever, now I've finally seen one. I'm in love all over again.

So, it grew on you?

[Stahlgrau]

Originally Posted by bronco

When C/D or any other magazine reviews these vehicle they apply the same real life GAS testing, right? How come they came up with If I am not mistaken (18mpg for the vette, and 13 for the M)

Please, correct me if I am wrong

C/D didn't do any "real life" gas testing. They had the car for a limited time and flogged it on the streets of Marbella, Spain and the Ascari race course.

Can any of our new European owners speak up in regards to the MPG they're seeing and under what conditions?

[Stahlgrau]

Originally Posted by BruceWain

DRIVE IT YOURSELF AND DECIDE YOURSELF.

Bingo!

[The CSL]

Originally Posted by Stahlgrau

So, it grew on you?

It's a nice piece of design and an M car. I'd have a nagging doubt it wasn't what it could have been as I was power sliding around empty rural roads with a grin on my face.

[Stahlgrau]

Originally Posted by The CSL

It's a nice piece of design and an M car. I'd have a nagging doubt it wasn't what it could have been as I was power sliding around empty rural roads with a grin on my face.

It's only gonna be more badass as aftermarket bodywork, wheels, and other cool shit becomes available.

[Caravello]

I think all the gov regs is what has ruined sporting. The cars are too heavy, and manufacturers have to invest so much into tech and R&D for the safety features and environmental considerations that we are left with a cobbled together frankenstein's monster, and sometimes it's good, often not. The higher and higher HP is a necessity more than anything to get any sort of performance out of heavier cars.

I thought the Elise would be the thing, but it lacks brute strength and feels cheap. I like my current M3 but it lacks torque unless I mod it which I may.

The upcoming M3 is kind of the same thing, not enough torque and to max out the power you have to rev the hell out of it. That's fine but not all the time, especially since when you drive it like in the high revs the temp gauge moves a little too quickly to the right.

The C63 seems the most promising of all the sporting sedans. I think BMW has lost its way for enthusiasts and instead caters to a mass market. Mercedes does the same, but they may have a jewel on their hands with the new C63. I like it and the Porsche GT3, followed by the new M.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Caravello

The upcoming M3 is kind of the same thing, not enough torque and to max out the power you have to rev the hell out of it. That's fine but not all the time, especially since when you drive it like in the high revs the temp gauge moves a little too quickly to the right.

Yes and no. I agree with the part I did not quote but from all reviews thus far the low end torque is not a problem at all in the new car. Gunning it at 40-50 mph in 4th is fantastic as we have heard. I think the flexibility of the motor - the combination of a very flat, broad torque curve along with the insane redline will be the highlight of the car.

As far as the temperature concern goes - if the cooling system is anywhere close to as good as it is on my E36 M3 it will never leave dead center of the range, cold weather or beating it on the track in hot weather. I think cooling is something BMW has traditionally done quite well.

[ruff]

Originally Posted by swamp2

As far as the temperature concern goes - if the cooling system is anywhere close to as goos as it is on my E36 M3 it will never leave dead center of the range, cold weather or beating it on the track in hot weather. I think cooling is something BMW has traditionally done quite well.

Except for the N54.

[rvacha]

Originally Posted by Caravello

The upcoming M3 is kind of the same thing, not enough torque and to max out the power you have to rev the hell out of it. That's fine but not all the time, especially since when you drive it like in the high revs the temp gauge moves a little too quickly to the right.

Serious? Where did you read that? I can only remember the N54 having any issue at all. And as far as I know the temp gage doesn't really reflect coolant or oil temperature anyway - it simply conveys "acceptable" vs. "unacceptable" given the environment and circumstances.

[Caravello]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Yes and no. I agree with the part I did not quote but from all reviews thus far the low end torque is not a problem at all in the new car. Gunning it at 40-50 mph in 4th is fantastic as we have heard. I think the flexibility of the motor - the combination of a very flat, broad torque curve along with the insane redline will be the highlight of the car.

As far as the temperature concern goes - if the cooling system is anywhere close to as good as it is on my E36 M3 it will never leave dead center of the range, cold weather or beating it on the track in hot weather. I think cooling is something BMW has traditionally done quite well.

I hope the torque is as they say, giving power equally through low and high RPMs. If it is, then I am excited (but still want to test drive).

I think the cooling on the E46 may not be as good as with yours then, because you can be driving it agressively in L.A. and pretty soon it is a good clip or two past the center line. I never overheated it, but the tendency is to pull back. I did take it down to the Mexican beaches one day which were cool and misty and the car loved it. It was like a dog gulping down water from a stream. She ran and ran like my Shepherd pup chasing a tennis ball.

I am taking a wait and see approach. I am on the waiting list, in the first slot in fact, with my local dealer. If the power is evenly distributed and feels strong then I will be happy, because the car is beautiful. As far as looks, it looks much better than the C63 whose hood looks like a mini Heineken keg or something with those two lips.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Caravello

...
I think the cooling on the E46 may not be as good as with yours then, because you can be driving it agressively in L.A. and pretty soon it is a good clip or two past the center line. I never overheated it, but the tendency is to pull back....

I did not have my E46 M3 long enough to ever see the temperature go above dead mid range (and never got to track her...). But given how pushed to the limit this engine was on piston speed and bore size/bore spacing, hp/l, etc. it getting a bit warm does not really surprise me.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by M3_2010

BMW is interested in getting market shares..... There cars are pretty ugly and technology has been a hit or miss.... i.e. Active steering, SMG, etc.
There suspensions have become so stiff that ordering sport suspension will mean driving on the race track only. They are pushing cars...... The new M3 is a good looking car for sure..... but steering feel is an issue???

BMW outsells its competition, so I would assume that they have capitalized on market shares already. BMW pushes the envelope in the technology department, and they are generally innovators. And you must have a rather soft derriere if you think the sport suspension means "track driving only". They are not that stiff!

[13eastie]

Originally Posted by Caravello

The upcoming M3 is kind of the same thing, not enough torque and to max out the power you have to rev the hell out of it.

I'm not sure how people are reaching this conclusion (and I'm sorry for appearing to single you out here); likewise I'm not going going to rant about the definitions of power vs torque.

The new M3 engine delivers 85% max torque across the entire rev range, or, to put it another way, you can only really lose 15% of peak available torque by taking it easy. Good throttle response is another factor that will lesson the apparent effect of this.

If people are being given the impression of lack of torque due to transmission ratios and their relative spacing then this would be affecting the entire rev range.

Comparison with the 335i and it's higher peak torque is misleading - the area under the M3's torque curve is clearly the greater of the two and this is idicative of better "driveability" (for want of a better word).

If test drivers are really getting this feeling, I think it must be down to something a lot more intangible/subjective than actual torque.

[13eastie]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I did not have my E46 M3 long enough to ever see the temperature go above dead mid range (and never got to track her...). But given how pushed to the limit this engine was on piston speed and bore size/bore spacing, hp/l, etc. it getting a bit warm does not really surprise me.

The hope now has to be that the new block, having far greater heat conductivity, would (all other things being equal) be easier to cool.

[Leg]

Havent the energy nor inclination to read all that so I'll make it simple.

Name the alternative, £50,000 when new, seat 4 in comfort, 420BHP, 2 door coupe from a quality marque that I should buy instead of the M3.

Buggered if I can think of one. Dont say 'used 911' . I dont buy used, I want new. No, it isnt an RS4, it has 4 doors, I dont want a saloon. No it isnt the RS5, it isnt out yet.

Name an alternative I can buy now that meets my criteria.