Trail braking, rear brake bias?

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by lucid

So many things go wrong in that crash video--apart from the crash itself. I wouldn't even come close to pushing the car on that track. There doesn't seem to be timely medical/emergency response. What if there was a fire or a broken neck? The cars behind the crash don't seem to know that there has been one are diving into that turn (relying on the public to act like flaggers is not a good idea). People pull off in the middle of the track right by the rolled over car--many risks there. Then of course there is the open passing driving itself with people around you who seem to know very little about performance driving. That's crazy. Rather, crazier than pushing your car on a properly operated race track on which drivers are supervised. I am crazy enough to do the latter but not the former. When you start attending HPDEs in the US, you will be in a less risky environment in which you can learn in a more structured manner. One can try to drive fast on his/her own and pick things up on the way, but there is nothing like trying on your own a little, picking up someone who is more experienced and having that person evaluate what you are doing. So much more effective. And keeps you from learning the wrong thing.

Sounds like a much better place to go have a brat & drink beer and watch the enertainment on a weekend

[Gearhead999s]

Is this a typical Sunday at the Ring?

Beer & Brats seems like a great idea

[lucid]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

Is this a typical Sunday at the Ring?

Beer & Brats seems like a great idea

Nice find!

My favorite moments are 3:30 and 6:30, but nothing comes close to what the driver pulls off at 0:08!

Also, the music is great! Makes me want to go on a track...

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by lucid

Nice find!

My favorite moments are 3:30 and 6:30, but nothing comes close to what the driver pulls off at 0:08!

Also, the music is great! Makes me want to go on a track...

When we go to Deals Gap in Tennessee with the bikes,Saturdays are reserved for loading up the truck with beer and lawnchairs and finding a corner to watch all the shenanigans.We do all our riding before 10 am or after 6.00pm on the weekends or go elsewhere away from the weekidiots.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

When we go to Deals Gap in Tennessee with the bikes,Saturdays are reserved for loading up the truck with beer and lawnchairs and finding a corner to watch all the shenanigans.We do all our riding before 10 am or after 6.00pm on the weekends or go elsewhere away from the weekidiots.

Do you play that kind of music in the background though to spice things up?

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by lucid

Do you play that kind of music in the background though to spice things up?

Weez gots the tunes for sure

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by armyav8tor

Tell me what you think. With no formal driver training, I basically drive intuitively.

You're pretty talented and taking better lines than your friend in the camera car. He's diving for early apexes. You both have good control, but would be much, much safer with a little training. Taking the correct line will give you a much larger margin for error.

I find it hard to believe that the camera car had wife and kids in it, probably with no helmets. I just don't think that's wise at the speeds that you were going on such a dangerous course. There were several points where one small misstep would have resulted in a potentially horrendous crash.

As for trail braking, I saw some, but I didn't see the tail step out. If it is, it means that you're very, very near the limit and should probably get your braking done a little sooner. Very few of those corners in the video really needed trail braking accept to recover from error.

Where trail braking is most useful is a very slow, neutral corner (like 40 mph) at the end of a long straight. You lengthen the straight AND improve turn in, at a place where it's easy to make the car plow. You pick up speed by avoiding the plow and braking deeper. Often, a little rotation is helpful in these type corners.

Trails braking through high speed corners is a dangerous strategy. Generally you want to enter under control, hit your apex and be on the power.

Dave

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

Is this a typical Sunday at the Ring?

Beer & Brats seems like a great idea

Ah, 1970. I remember it well. I still had my 1967 Beetle, with Konis, Pirellis and other "hot" bits. It could be a handful at times, although it seemed tame compared to the 1963 Corvair Monza that it replaced.

All those Opels, early 911s, BMW 1600s and 2002s still don't match the number of Beetles. Those were the poor man's race car of the day. The Beetle class at SCCA autocrosses would be packed.

Times have changed, except idiots still haunt The Ring.

Dave

[armyav8tor]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

When we go to Deals Gap in Tennessee with the bikes,Saturdays are reserved for loading up the truck with beer and lawnchairs and finding a corner to watch all the shenanigans.We do all our riding before 10 am or after 6.00pm on the weekends or go elsewhere away from the weekidiots.

Adenauer Forst is where I like to do the same thing, the hike up there is a bitch though. That's where most of the cool Nurburgring videos are shot. VLNClub has some nice compilations on youtube. People would bring their air horns, chairs, grille and just sit up there all day watching cars run off the track.

Not as cool as the 70's videos as the cars today don't rollover as easily anymore ..

[armyav8tor]

Originally Posted by lucid

So many things go wrong in that crash video--apart from the crash itself. I wouldn't even come close to pushing the car on that track. There doesn't seem to be timely medical/emergency response. What if there was a fire or a broken neck? The cars behind the crash don't seem to know that there has been one are diving into that turn (relying on the public to act like flaggers is not a good idea). People pull off in the middle of the track right by the rolled over car--many risks there. Then of course there is the open passing driving itself with people around you who seem to know very little about performance driving. That's crazy. Rather, crazier than pushing your car on a properly operated race track on which drivers are supervised. I am crazy enough to do the latter but not the former. When you start attending HPDEs in the US, you will be in a less risky environment in which you can learn in a more structured manner. One can try to drive fast on his/her own and pick things up on the way, but there is nothing like trying on your own a little, picking up someone who is more experienced and having that person evaluate what you are doing. So much more effective. And keeps you from learning the wrong thing.

I hear you, but I'm so glad such a place exist. It is one of those tracks where after the weekend, you say, "Cool, I made it out in one piece". There is a certain satisfaction/adrenaline rush associated with it that is hard to describe and even harder to dublicate. I hope they don't change a thing. Hockenheimring tourist days are run like the States in that you are out there for 15 min sessions and they separate the bikes and the cars. There are a lot of HPDE events held at the Ring, BMW has one. So, if you want to be properly trained to drive on the Ring, its there. Scuderia Hanseat is probably the best one to go to but I was never able to attend them due to my work schedule.

[armyav8tor]

I had to constantly watch out for these guys.. They are known as Ringheroes. Bad drivers who think they can go fast on the Ring.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by armyav8tor

I hear you, but I'm so glad such a place exist. It is one of those tracks where after the weekend, you say, "Cool, I made it out in one piece". There is a certain satisfaction/adrenaline rush associated with it that is hard to describe and even harder to dublicate. I hope they don't change a thing. Hockenheimring tourist days are run like the States in that you are out there for 15 min sessions and they separate the bikes and the cars. There are a lot of HPDE events held at the Ring, BMW has one. So, if you want to be properly trained to drive on the Ring, its there. Scuderia Hanseat is probably the best one to go to but I was never able to attend them due to my work schedule.

I'm not opposed to the idea of such a curcuit. If I lived there, I'd probably drive on it. I just wouldn't even come close to pushing it by any standard.

[armyav8tor]

Originally Posted by dcstep

You're pretty talented and taking better lines than your friend in the camera car. He's diving for early apexes. You both have good control, but would be much, much safer with a little training. Taking the correct line will give you a much larger margin for error.

I find it hard to believe that the camera car had wife and kids in it, probably with no helmets. I just don't think that's wise at the speeds that you were going on such a dangerous course. There were several points where one small misstep would have resulted in a potentially horrendous crash.

As for trail braking, I saw some, but I didn't see the tail step out. If it is, it means that you're very, very near the limit and should probably get your braking done a little sooner. Very few of those corners in the video really needed trail braking accept to recover from error.

Where trail braking is most useful is a very slow, neutral corner (like 40 mph) at the end of a long straight. You lengthen the straight AND improve turn in, at a place where it's easy to make the car plow. You pick up speed by avoiding the plow and braking deeper. Often, a little rotation is helpful in these type corners.

Trails braking through high speed corners is a dangerous strategy. Generally you want to enter under control, hit your apex and be on the power.

Dave

Thanks for the critique and trail braking lesson That was my wife in his car in that video so I trust his driving fully. One of the kid is his, the other is my friend's. No helmet, no gloves, no rollcages. Crashing on the Autobahn will probably turn out much worse than crashing on the Ring. Risk is involved in everything we do and in this case we felt that it would not be dangerous for the kids to ride along. His wife didn't go on the lap because she wasn't feeling too well after riding in a few laps.

Everything you've said made a lot of sense and I think is in line with my driving style. I'm the kind of guy who doesn't do jerky inputs, when I put an input with the steering wheel, it is one smooth but quick motion and then I hold it. I time it good enough to where there is very little adjustment for me to hit the apex. The braking, I try to finish all my braking before entering into a corner so I can be on the gas no later than hitting the apex of the corner. Exit speed is something I've been working on. I've been saved by MDM a few times, like when I hit the giant oil spill and the other time when the ass end stepped out when I had to brake into the turn due to my inaccurate assessment of how faded the brakes where. I wasn't dumb enough to disable DSC at the Ring because I know I need a lot more track time before I start thinking about it.

[sayemthree]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

I cannot think of any tracks that I run on that there is not at least one corner where you trailbrake on a lap if you want to go quick.Trailbraking is a very important part of putting together a proper lap at any track that is more complex than 90 degree corners.

I can not either.

[Montoya]

Originally Posted by dcstep

Where trail braking is most useful is a very slow, neutral corner (like 40 mph) at the end of a long straight. You lengthen the straight AND improve turn in, at a place where it's easy to make the car plow. You pick up speed by avoiding the plow and braking deeper. Often, a little rotation is helpful in these type corners.

Trails braking through high speed corners is a dangerous strategy. Generally you want to enter under control, hit your apex and be on the power.

Dave

This is exactly the situation I experienced some issues with trail braking- slow corner after a long straight. I do not trail brake on a regular basis, it is just part of the toolbox. I think in my case on a back country road where I was really driving 7/10ths with my DSC on, I was surprised to see the DSC flash on and the rear step out slightly when entering a slow speed corner at approximately 45 mph. Now, I can tell you that I wasn't entirely smooth in my approach and I was down shifting- so an earlier thought that the electronics wasn't keeping up rev matching the down shift while braking is probably correct.

I just mentioned it because it seemed to me that the E46 M3 with SMG didn't feel as loose in this situation- but in all other areas there really isn't a comparison. So, fantastic posts on this thread and thanks to all for the insights. I think it's just a case of getting used to the new car, adjusting for it. Probably the best solution is to avoid the downshift while entering the turn and of course use good judgment and trailbrake as little as possible.

Thanks!!!

[masmole]

Originally Posted by armyav8tor

He has the DCT so rev matching should not be an issue. No amount of technology will save the car if the driver puts it in an unrecoverable condition. 99.99999% of the car crashes I've witness was due to braking in the corners, the Ring is more unforgiving than other tracks but it still illustrates my point. Better to not brake in the turn. Finish your braking, be on the gas by the time you hit the apex. You'll be flying out of the corner and the acceleration coming out of the turn far out weighs the time you might have saved by diving into the corner.

I respectfully disagree. I find the E92 M3 responds to trail braking very well. Thanks to having a DCT tranny, I even started experimenting with left foot braking on certain portions of certain tracks where I'm applying part throttle and part brakes through a turn. I still need to practice it but when done right, it makes the car really shoot out of certain turns very smoothly with impressive exits speeds based on data from a traqmate that I borrowed from a friend for a few sessions.

[Montoya]

Originally Posted by armyav8tor

Upon further review of the video of my friend following me, I see what might be trail braking. The corners in question are both the late entry corners, Aremberg and Bergwerk. Not so much at Aremberg (2:22) but Bergwerk (4:44)


Tell me what you think. With no formal driver training, I basically drive intuitively.

I think we have a different definition of trail braking. From what I see you are trail braking all over the circuit. Yes noticeably in the turns you mentioned but other places as well. If you think about the friction circle my definition of trail braking is when the majority of your braking force is on run into the corner and you trail off the brakes into the entrance to the corner, maximizing the grip of the tires. In so doing you make a smooth transition from deceleration to lateral g force, maximizing the friction circle. Take a look at your entry into the Karussell and you will see that you are doing that exactly.

Having said that, I think my experience was a case where I was not smooth and the braking was too late into the corner...

As far as your talent- way cool watching the vids- you definitely have game and I assume you are a pilot so you have some natural ability. You have forged your talent on one of the hardest courses in the world. Training be damned, you could teach some of us some lessons!

[consolidated]

Trail braking becomes even more useful if the car tends towards understeer coupled with high horsepower, like our cars with a stock alignment.

You can't get on the gas too soon in slower corner or it will push, so it's just best to drive it in deep trail braking, weight the front to get it turned in, rotated and unwind the wheel early so you can get to full throttle quicker.

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by Montoya

This is exactly the situation I experienced some issues with trail braking- slow corner after a long straight. I do not trail brake on a regular basis, it is just part of the toolbox. I think in my case on a back country road where I was really driving 7/10ths with my DSC on, I was surprised to see the DSC flash on and the rear step out slightly when entering a slow speed corner at approximately 45 mph. Now, I can tell you that I wasn't entirely smooth in my approach and I was down shifting- so an earlier thought that the electronics wasn't keeping up rev matching the down shift while braking is probably correct.

I just mentioned it because it seemed to me that the E46 M3 with SMG didn't feel as loose in this situation- but in all other areas there really isn't a comparison. So, fantastic posts on this thread and thanks to all for the insights. I think it's just a case of getting used to the new car, adjusting for it. Probably the best solution is to avoid the downshift while entering the turn and of course use good judgment and trailbrake as little as possible.

Smooth as the DCT is, it's still best to get the shifting done on the straight or near straight. Step down through the gears, not skipping any. You scrub off speed quick and you do your first shift pretty quickly after getting on the brakes.

By all means, left foot brake all the time with the DCT. You can be much smoother when you can start braking as you're rolling off the throttle and don't have to be 100% off the throttle to start your braking. In autocross, I left foot brake even though I drive a 6MT. I think of it as smoothing weight transfer. It's also useful in unstable areas, like slaloms where you can modulate things. The same principals apply on the track. Just be aware, as you need to be on the street, to be all the way off the brake pedal when not actually braking. I usually plant my heel and rotate the ball of my foot, either flat on the floor or hovering over the brake.

Dave

[armyav8tor]

Originally Posted by Montoya

This is exactly the situation I experienced some issues with trail braking- slow corner after a long straight. I do not trail brake on a regular basis, it is just part of the toolbox. I think in my case on a back country road where I was really driving 7/10ths with my DSC on, I was surprised to see the DSC flash on and the rear step out slightly when entering a slow speed corner at approximately 45 mph. Now, I can tell you that I wasn't entirely smooth in my approach and I was down shifting- so an earlier thought that the electronics wasn't keeping up rev matching the down shift while braking is probably correct.

Were you on full DSC or MDM? I ask because the rear steps out much easier when DSC is on. It is exactly as you've described, the car would cut power and the back end steps out. I experimented with full DSC on a wet track and discovered it was much more dangerous for me than to leave it in MDM. The MDM will literally let you drift around a corner where as DSC will cut power as soon as it senses you are at the limits of traction and the sudden cutoff will cause the car to rotate out and you are basically in a slide at that point.

Originally Posted by Montoya

I think we have a different definition of trail braking. From what I see you are trail braking all over the circuit. Yes noticeably in the turns you mentioned but other places as well. If you think about the friction circle my definition of trail braking is when the majority of your braking force is on run into the corner and you trail off the brakes into the entrance to the corner, maximizing the grip of the tires. In so doing you make a smooth transition from deceleration to lateral g force, maximizing the friction circle. Take a look at your entry into the Karussell and you will see that you are doing that exactly.

Originally Posted by masmole

I respectfully disagree. I find the E92 M3 responds to trail braking very well. Thanks to having a DCT tranny, I even started experimenting with left foot braking on certain portions of certain tracks where I'm applying part throttle and part brakes through a turn. I still need to practice it but when done right, it makes the car really shoot out of certain turns very smoothly with impressive exits speeds based on data from a traqmate that I borrowed from a friend for a few sessions.

Yeah, my definition of trail brake was way off. I think I developed a distaste for the word because I associated it with people spinning off the track. I've had many cars run off the track in front of me and I've noticed everytime their brake lights were on at the initial point of the spin. I guess it is really how good you are able to control the brakes with your foot. I've tried left foot braking just on the street with regular driving and noticed that I was not smooth at all and usually step on it way too hard. I didn't think it would be wise to try that at the Ring and I didn't have enough time left in Germany for me to learn to be smooth with my left foot and go to the Ring to try out the technique so I just said screw it. My right foot is very accurate with the gas and brakes though. My left foot is used to stepping fast and hard into the clutch's engage/disengagement point and then releasing as it grabs the gear so it is not programmed for braking at all.

Originally Posted by Montoya

As far as your talent- way cool watching the vids- you definitely have game and I assume you are a pilot so you have some natural ability. You have forged your talent on one of the hardest courses in the world. Training be damned, you could teach some of us some lessons!

Thanks for the kind words. Make no mistake, I am a driver first and a pilot second. I think being a good driver has made me a good pilot and being a good pilot has made me an even better driver. They are definitely tied together as with flying all your senses get tossed around and you have to learn to understand what those senses are telling you. A lot of the time, those senses are wrong and if you trust them, you will crash and die (aka JFK Jr.) so I think that's where flying has improved my driving the most. Anyway, I'm just out to have a good time when I'm driving. Nothing too serious. It may change as I run into some of the more serious guys here in the forum on the track. It may rub off on me...

[Dascamel]

Army, I'm not an expert but before even thinking about trail braking get some real instruction. I'm talking a day or two with real advanced drivers that are used to providing training at a high level. You have a very high natural level of talent, but your line and other things can still be improved. DCSTEP mentioned a few things like turning in too early in a few places, everytime you did it slowed you down. Trail braking can help, but you can shave time in so many other areas first w/o even turning MDM off.

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by Dascamel

...DCSTEP mentioned a few things like turning in too early in a few places, everytime you did it slowed you down. ....

Worse than losing time, an early apex will always reduce your margin for error. At high speeds the margin gets very small and you'll need all that you can get.

Dave