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04-22-2007, 06:09 PM | #45 | |
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On your point of mutual exclusivity: Clearly they are not mutually exclusive but they do in many ways interfere with each other. Humans have a limited capacity for multi-tasking. Just as a thought experiment no one could control two cars at the same time on a track, could they (of course assuming one could be in two places at the same time first...)? It just takes too much mental and physical "bandwidth". Given this limitation we all have why not clear as much bandwidth as possible to make more room for those things a mechanism and computer can not do? Sure there are amazing drivers who seem to easily drive perfectly and control a MT. I guess I would argue they could realize an even higer potential with an automated manual. That is why they are used in F1! Performance wise I think most of us agree that DCT will be the clear winner. It is just so puzzling then why in such a performance oriented car folks are so stuck on the MT idea. Many of those obsessed with every 1/10th second of 0-60 or 1/4mi still seem insistent on rowing thier own gears. This is such a clear contradiction. It is a very interesting debate with informed and uninformed, emotional and scientific thinkers on both sides. In the end 99% of folks will really enjoy their choice and that is what is most important. |
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04-22-2007, 06:45 PM | #46 | |
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I can sign off right now that I won't be able to shift in 4ms or whatever it ends up being, but damnit, I will feel like the king of the world rowing those gears. I have modded my Maxima to the available limit, bolt-ons, because I want go as fast as possible, and I rock an auto. Just didn't get the 6-speed. Being performance oriented isn't just about utlizing a tranny that shifts ms faster.
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04-22-2007, 06:54 PM | #47 | |
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04-22-2007, 07:41 PM | #48 |
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i have to agree with this comment. most of the comments left in support of the manual transmission have left me scratching my temple in confusion. at the end of the day, if you want to sacrifice performance in the name of rowing your own gears, more power to you. but of course the trade of is just that: a substantial sacrifice of performance.
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04-22-2007, 08:06 PM | #49 |
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?? Your definition of substantial is under review.
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04-22-2007, 08:59 PM | #50 |
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my definition of substantial is the real one. my friend webster agrees. for your viewing ease i'll post it here:
1 a : consisting of or relating to substance b : not imaginary or illusory : REAL, TRUE c : IMPORTANT, ESSENTIAL
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04-22-2007, 09:05 PM | #51 | |
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Too bad your friend Webster doesn't acquaint you with grammar.
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04-22-2007, 09:34 PM | #52 | |
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epacy, do you have an attitude problem that you'd like to advertise for us? or is it just that you can't handle when your OPINION isn't acknowledged as fact? maybe you should re-familiarize yourself with the general purpose of these forums: to engage in discussion, not to proselytize. on the subject of definitions though, maybe you need to re-familiarize yourself with the definition of "overstating" given that my last post was a word for word cut and paste of webster dictionary's primary definition of substantial, with no embellishments. if you have any more childish quips you'd like to offer, feel free to to bombard me in private messages rather than post your banal off-topic rants in a public forum.
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[ESS VT2-625] [Akrapovic Evolution Exhaust] [KW Clubsports] [OSS Angel Eyes] [Revinora r-CRT Lip] [Vorsteiner Boot] [Challenge Race Diffuser] [See the Build Thread HERE] Last edited by esquire; 04-22-2007 at 11:35 PM.. |
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04-22-2007, 09:43 PM | #53 |
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I would say 0.1 sec is substantial when you are comparing performance cars. If a manual shift takes 0.4 sec, and DSG 0.004 sec, you are gaining 0.3996 sec every shift. If that is not 'substantial' I don't know what is?
I agree it seems contradictory for someone who wants a performance car (someone who cares about 0-60,0-100) to also prefer a manual transmission. By choosing a MT, you are basically sacrificing performance/time. A 400hp DSG would be just as fast as a 420hp MT. Another way to look at it is that a 420hp M3 with DSG will be as fast as another car with 440hp and a MT (assuming same weight,etc). By choosing DSG, you are basically getting a faster car for your money. Think about it... This all ignores the 'fun factor' of a MT. If it is more fun to you, then you should def buy it. I still maintain that the insistence on a manual transmission is a surrogate (artificial) interest/activity. We do not have to hunt for our food, water, basic needs anymore. People need something to strive for and to challenge themselves. Some people strive for endless money, others workout until they become arnold. Neither one will make a person happy, but they do it because they have control over it and it is a challenge (gives a person satisfaction when accomplished, althought temporary). Althought irrational, people want to row their gears because it gives them something to do and something to accomplish/feel satisfied about when they do it well. When computers take over the world, people begin to lose control over things and, as a result, feel bored, detached, powerless, etc. I contend that you may feel satisfied/accomplished rowing gears perfectly, but it will only be temporary. Soon, someone will blow by you with a DSG... It is then that you will realize how pointless it is to be using an ancient transmission. I say you make sharp driving the replacement goal and let the DSG mess with shifting. The reason we like MT, is because we are not always on a track, and the MT makes repeated straight-line acceleration more fun (or as some call it, 'involving'). I think the reason the decision is tough is because it gets at the root of humankind's attainment of happiness. If shifting provides happiness, then getting DSG will force you to find other ways to achieve success/happiness. Maybe it is better, focused driving... Maybe it is another activity all together... |
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04-22-2007, 11:23 PM | #54 | |
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04-23-2007, 01:07 AM | #56 |
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Sources are saying 8 milliseconds for DSG... (4 tenths for MT)
So you disagree that 0.392 sec is meaningless?? per shift??? Your car is coasting/decelerating for that entire time, while DSG has already shifted and is ACCELERATING again!! I'm not a physicist, but the difference between a car decelerating for 0.392 sec (MT) vs. a car accelerating for 0.392 sec (DSG) is undoubtedly 'significant.' Lets take a car with a 0-60 of 4.5 sec and linear acceleration (which it is not but is easy to demonstrate) In 0.392 sec, this car has accelerated 5.22 mph. roughly [(60mph/4.5sec)*0.392] Thats right, in the time you were shifting your MT, the DSG has allowed the other car to increase its speed by 5 mph!!! Once you have shifted, you will have already lost several feet, and your opponent will be moving at a faster rate than you. (AKA he will continue to distance himself from you, even after you have shifted!!) |
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04-23-2007, 06:51 AM | #58 | |
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Best regards, south |
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04-23-2007, 07:50 AM | #59 | |
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Again, you are not following. I wasn't referring to your definition as "overstating". It was your comment I was referring to. Wouldn't your message be deemed a "childish quip" and "off-topic"? My post about substantial performance was off-topic? What thread are you reading?? Please don't act like you are taking the high-road. You are the one who turned nasty. What's next?
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04-23-2007, 07:56 AM | #60 |
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No doubt the difference is REAL and TRUE. But depending on the driver and the intended use of the car, it may not be IMPORTANT or ESSENTIAL.
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04-23-2007, 04:15 PM | #61 | |
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Excellent insight
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04-23-2007, 04:42 PM | #62 |
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The DSG sounds very interesting...will it be a option for a extra cost or does it come standard?
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04-23-2007, 05:45 PM | #64 |
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04-24-2007, 01:10 AM | #66 |
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Gracias. Rowing gears is like doing math by hand. If you're good at it and fast at it, you undoubtedly have skill. But when Excel comes along and does it for you, do you insist upon doing it by hand still? No. That would be ridiculous.
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