M3 vs cayman S

[lucid]

Sorry, it turns out it was the November 2009 issue. I have no idea why I got the November issue in the middle of September...

[footie]

The comparison review will be an interesting one but unforunately it isn't like for like, each Porsche has differece setups, the Cayman was additional suspension tweaks and the 997 on stock. I would much prefer to see stock vs stock only with the same output, in fact that comparison I have already shown, it was the 997 C2 Mk2 vs Cayman S Mk2 on Hockenheim.

And on checking we know which was the quicker.

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by footie

The comparison review will be an interesting one but unforunately it isn't like for like, each Porsche has differece setups, the Cayman was additional suspension tweaks and the 997 on stock. I would much prefer to see stock vs stock only with the same output, in fact that comparison I have already shown, it was the 997 C2 Mk2 vs Cayman S Mk2 on Hockenheim.

And on checking we know which was the quicker.

Sure, it can't really be like for like, unless Porsche makes it so! It's just a comparison to those that always ask, "What if the Cayman has the C2S engine?" - that sort of thing. Which is what ruff did. I'm interested to read it as well, because in my reply to ruff's question in this thread, I said that if the Cayman had the C2S engine (provided other bits were also upgraded on the Cayman to handle the extra power and also reduce understeer), the Cayman should be faster IMO.

Regarding the HvS video, I analyzed it as best I could. But I sure hope he wasn't driving the C2 in the same fashion he was the GT3. That would nullify any result in my mind. That GT3 joyride video cannot be taken at all seriously in terms of setting a lap time. Fast and fun - sure!

[footie]

Originally Posted by urbo73

Regarding the HvS video, I analyzed it as best I could. But I sure hope he wasn't driving the C2 in the same fashion he was the GT3. That would nullify any result in my mind. That GT3 joyride video cannot be taken at all seriously in terms of setting a lap time. Fast and fun - sure

We differ on something but of neatness and tidy lines for a quick lap time we are in total agreement, I preached this for sometime here. That's the quick way on a race track but the total opposite is true of the rally circuit where the more you are sideways the better but most of the difference is down to the difference in the chosen line through a given corner.

I think for anyone a bit of experience in both forms of motorsport makes for a better driver overall.

P.S.

Regarding the 997, it's a car that neat and tidiness doesn't come easy and in my opinion to achieve it's best you really need to bully a quick lap out of it. From my experience of the breed I am with Bruce that to achieve it's quickest lap it leave no margain for the unexpected, which is the complete opposite to what I class as a great chassis. What Porsche has done with the 911 chassis is engineer an exceptionally quick chassis which requires balls of steel and incredible skill before it releases it's best but for the engineers to achieve this level of speed it's forgiving nature had to go.

[footie]

Hot lap in Cayman S (on board)

Hot lap in Carrera GT3 (on board)

Here's the write up on each car.

Cayman S

Few cars can match the Performance Car of the Year pedigree of the Cayman S. The talented coupé has taken the overall crown twice – which is a record. However, engineers at Porsche haven’t rested on their laurels, and so the Cayman is back again this year with a whole host of updates. So, is it possible to improve on perfection?

Initial impressions suggest it is! The biggest change is the introduction of a more-powerful direct-injection version of the existing 3.4-litre flat-six engine, which gives the car a greater urge, while still serving up the same spine-tingling sound. There’s also a new nose that takes its cues from the company’s Carrera GT supercar.

The incredible chassis is unchanged. With its mid-engined layout, the Porsche is beautifully balanced through fast bends, and benefits from superb traction out of slower corners. It also has excellent body control, eye-wateringly powerful brakes, a slick gearshift and a steering set-up that is so accurate it feels laser-guided.

Every control is wonderfully tactile and delivers a flow of feedback to the driver’s hands, feet and behind. As a result, the Cayman provides an absorbing experience, rewarding both novices and hardcore track-day fanatics.

A perfect driving position, good visibility and compact size make it easy to place on the road, even along narrow lanes. Plus, the composed ride, refinement and decent luggage space mean it’s a sensible daily driver.

This breadth of ability is at the core of the Cayman’s considerable appeal – it really is in a league of its own, delivering such huge desirability and undiluted driving thrills. Only the outstanding brilliance of this year’s winner denies the Porsche victory number three

Road Rating : *****
Track Rating : *****
Desirability : *****

Carrera GT3

The 911 GT3 is like an athlete. Nothing is left untouched in the search for performance – weight has been shed and everything is honed, tested and constantly improved in a constant quest for speed.

As a result, each generation is faster, sharper and more accomplished than the one before. Power from the latest model’s normally aspirated 3.8-litre flat-six engine is up by 20bhp, to 435bhp, and torque rises to 430Nm. Plus, for the first time, the GT3 gets the firm’s PASM active suspension.

Other updates include race-inspired single-nut wheel bolts, which save 5kg of weight, and optional £5,567 ceramic brakes, which shed an extra 20kg – all of which improves the purity of the steering feel. You even get active engine mounts that automatically tighten when they sense cornering loads increasing. And the effects of these changes are clear from the moment you drive the GT3. No other road-legal car feels as closely related to a competition machine – grip, traction and agility are staggering. Turn-in and front-end grip are truly incredible, while the feedback delivered to the driver is second to none. The short-shift gearbox is superb, and the mechanical roar of the engine stunning.

Stopping power from the brakes is in a class of its own, and while the GT3 requires skill to master at the limit, even at lower speeds the razor-sharp directness of the controls is impressive. The active dampers ensure it’s sublime on the track, and the Porsche is now a far better road car as well.

Beautifully engineered and enthralling to drive, the GT3 is the purest 911 to date – and one of the best performance cars in the world.

Road Rating : ****
Track Rating : *****
Desirability : *****

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by footie

We differ on something but of neatness and tidy lines for a quick lap time we are in total agreement, I preached this for sometime here. That's the quick way on a race track but the total opposite is true of the rally circuit where the more you are sideways the better but most of the difference is down to the difference in the chosen line through a given corner.

I think for anyone a bit of experience in both forms of motorsport makes for a better driver overall.

P.S.

Yes agree there. Rally driving is totally different technique.

Regarding the 997, it's a car that neat and tidiness doesn't come easy and in my opinion to achieve it's best you really need to bully a quick lap out of it. From my experience of the breed I am with Bruce that to achieve it's quickest lap it leave no margain for the unexpected, which is the complete opposite to what I class as a great chassis. What Porsche has done with the 911 chassis is engineer an exceptionally quick chassis which requires balls of steel and incredible skill before it releases it's best but for the engineers to achieve this level of speed it's forgiving nature had to go.

For sure it takes more skill to learn the 911 platform, but for around the town driving, the new 997s are pretty damn composed in comparison with some older models. If anything the Cayman feels more "raw" on the street as you can break it loose more easily at lower speeds. The 997s have a ton of grip, you'd really have to drive like a maniac to have any drama.

As for track use, when you are at the limit in any car that really implies ZERO place for mistakes. So I'm not sure what you mean by "leaves no margin for the unexpected". That may be true under the limit, but never at the limit.

BTW, I found that at the limit (PSM off and all), the Cayman (at least the 1st gen one I had) would be very susceptible to snap oversteer due to it's very low polar moment of inertia. I pushed and spun it on purpose to find the limit on track (in a place with a good runoff area where you'd just end up in the grass), and once you got spinning, there was no saving it. The 911 was more predictable to me. Spinning in the Cayman happens very fast. I'm not sure if the 2nd gen Caymans are better via suspension mods, etc. Perhaps. And BTW, this was a HUGE problem with the 914 that some leave out. Cayman improved on that a lot. What I'm trying to say is that even the Cayman at the limit can be at times tricky depending on the corner, etc. Every car is. No room of the unexpected. One needs to know how the car will behave ahead of time before pushing it. And while the Cayman is easier to learn and more forgiving as you get to the limit, at the limit things change. Just don't want people to think (from reading all these articles) that in the Cayman you can be a God because the car is so good. I read this a lot in articles, and it can be dangerous to think that way. About any car really. And I saw my share of both 911 and Cayman offs - believe me. And not intentional offs either. Every car really needs to be pushed above the limit to see how it will behave. Then there won't be any unexpected.

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by footie

Hot lap in Cayman S (on board)

Hot lap in Carrera GT3 (on board)

Here's the write up on each car.

Cayman S

Few cars can match the Performance Car of the Year pedigree of the Cayman S. The talented coupé has taken the overall crown twice – which is a record. However, engineers at Porsche haven’t rested on their laurels, and so the Cayman is back again this year with a whole host of updates. So, is it possible to improve on perfection?

Initial impressions suggest it is! The biggest change is the introduction of a more-powerful direct-injection version of the existing 3.4-litre flat-six engine, which gives the car a greater urge, while still serving up the same spine-tingling sound. There’s also a new nose that takes its cues from the company’s Carrera GT supercar.

The incredible chassis is unchanged. With its mid-engined layout, the Porsche is beautifully balanced through fast bends, and benefits from superb traction out of slower corners. It also has excellent body control, eye-wateringly powerful brakes, a slick gearshift and a steering set-up that is so accurate it feels laser-guided.

Every control is wonderfully tactile and delivers a flow of feedback to the driver’s hands, feet and behind. As a result, the Cayman provides an absorbing experience, rewarding both novices and hardcore track-day fanatics.

A perfect driving position, good visibility and compact size make it easy to place on the road, even along narrow lanes. Plus, the composed ride, refinement and decent luggage space mean it’s a sensible daily driver.

This breadth of ability is at the core of the Cayman’s considerable appeal – it really is in a league of its own, delivering such huge desirability and undiluted driving thrills. Only the outstanding brilliance of this year’s winner denies the Porsche victory number three

Road Rating : *****
Track Rating : *****
Desirability : *****

Carrera GT3

The 911 GT3 is like an athlete. Nothing is left untouched in the search for performance – weight has been shed and everything is honed, tested and constantly improved in a constant quest for speed.

As a result, each generation is faster, sharper and more accomplished than the one before. Power from the latest model’s normally aspirated 3.8-litre flat-six engine is up by 20bhp, to 435bhp, and torque rises to 430Nm. Plus, for the first time, the GT3 gets the firm’s PASM active suspension.

Other updates include race-inspired single-nut wheel bolts, which save 5kg of weight, and optional £5,567 ceramic brakes, which shed an extra 20kg – all of which improves the purity of the steering feel. You even get active engine mounts that automatically tighten when they sense cornering loads increasing. And the effects of these changes are clear from the moment you drive the GT3. No other road-legal car feels as closely related to a competition machine – grip, traction and agility are staggering. Turn-in and front-end grip are truly incredible, while the feedback delivered to the driver is second to none. The short-shift gearbox is superb, and the mechanical roar of the engine stunning.

Stopping power from the brakes is in a class of its own, and while the GT3 requires skill to master at the limit, even at lower speeds the razor-sharp directness of the controls is impressive. The active dampers ensure it’s sublime on the track, and the Porsche is now a far better road car as well.

Beautifully engineered and enthralling to drive, the GT3 is the purest 911 to date – and one of the best performance cars in the world.

Road Rating : ****
Track Rating : *****
Desirability : *****

Man the videos of this guy driving are damn hillarious. Just his facial expression. Looks hilarious - either super concentrated or scared or a bit of both. I just can't get past that. Agree with what he says - nothing new really. A GT3 is not a very comfortable or useful street car. Also a formula car of any sort needs even bigger skills to master, but that's the point no with performance cars? The cars that are faster are also less forgiving.

[footie]

Originally Posted by urbo73

Man the videos of this guy driving are damn hillarious. Just his facial expression. Looks hilarious - either super concentrated or scared or a bit of both. I just can't get past that. Agree with what he says - nothing new really. A GT3 is not a very comfortable or useful street car. Also a formula car of any sort needs even bigger skills to master, but that's the point no with performance cars? The cars that are faster are also less forgiving.

Yeah he's a hoot to watch but that doesn't take away from the fact he's quite a gifted driver. And I will concede that all performance cars are trickier to master because their limits are set at a much higher speeds, but it's solely down to the fact that as speeds increase so the window of opportunity to gather it up decreases in equal measures, a more forgiving car will always allow more time accordingly than one that's less forgiving.

I'm working on a piece at the moment so when I get home I'll comment on your other post.

[footie]

Originally Posted by urbo73

Yes agree there. Rally driving is totally different technique.

Skilled drivers are decent at both.

Originally Posted by urbo73

For sure it takes more skill to learn the 911 platform, but for around the town driving, the new 997s are pretty damn composed in comparison with some older models. If anything the Cayman feels more "raw" on the street as you can break it loose more easily at lower speeds. The 997s have a ton of grip, you'd really have to drive like a maniac to have any drama.

As for track use, when you are at the limit in any car that really implies ZERO place for mistakes. So I'm not sure what you mean by "leaves no margin for the unexpected". That may be true under the limit, but never at the limit.

BTW, I found that at the limit (PSM off and all), the Cayman (at least the 1st gen one I had) would be very susceptible to snap oversteer due to it's very low polar moment of inertia. I pushed and spun it on purpose to find the limit on track (in a place with a good runoff area where you'd just end up in the grass), and once you got spinning, there was no saving it. The 911 was more predictable to me. Spinning in the Cayman happens very fast. I'm not sure if the 2nd gen Caymans are better via suspension mods, etc. Perhaps. And BTW, this was a HUGE problem with the 914 that some leave out. Cayman improved on that a lot. What I'm trying to say is that even the Cayman at the limit can be at times tricky depending on the corner, etc. Every car is. No room of the unexpected. One needs to know how the car will behave ahead of time before pushing it. And while the Cayman is easier to learn and more forgiving as you get to the limit, at the limit things change. Just don't want people to think (from reading all these articles) that in the Cayman you can be a God because the car is so good. I read this a lot in articles, and it can be dangerous to think that way. About any car really. And I saw my share of both 911 and Cayman offs - believe me. And not intentional offs either. Every car really needs to be pushed above the limit to see how it will behave. Then there won't be any unexpected.

Yeah the Mk1 was a little more frisky than the Mk2, but I can't say that it's that dramatically different to drive quickly. I suppose when I am talking about the limit I don't mean at the point you are referring to which I class as a little bit beyond the limits of grip. At this point your options are greatly restricted as they are with the 997.

The spinning situation you are referring is the problem the Cayman and any mid-engined car has with limited amount of grunt, you couldn't give a Cayman a boot full of throttle and hope to get the tail working for you unless you were brutal with the steering to get the weight transferring, so without doing this you were working the car up to the point when mechanic grip let go and you are right that when this did happen it happened very quickly as I too have spun a few Boxsters and Caymans before now. But now with the intro of more power and the diff it's a lot more playful and at the same time more forgiving. It will never have the kind of traction out of a corner that the 997 has but at the same time it will always be better balance on entry and under extreme braking.

I feel the real difference between the two is all down to the fact that the transition between understeer and oversteer is far better controlled in the Cayman's chassis than it is with the 997. Both are great cars, both require skill to get the best from them but one only requires a lot of skill to master fully.

I will say though, that there is another Porsche which in my opinion at least had it's best chassis to date and that model was the 968. Very forgiving, beautifully balanced and a car that should have been a better success than it ever was.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by urbo73

Man the videos of this guy driving are damn hillarious. Just his facial expression. Looks hilarious - either super concentrated or scared or a bit of both. I just can't get past that. Agree with what he says - nothing new really. A GT3 is not a very comfortable or useful street car. Also a formula car of any sort needs even bigger skills to master, but that's the point no with performance cars? The cars that are faster are also less forgiving.

+100

And why does the camera keep on cutting back to his face? Why can't it simply stay on the track view? What kind of relevant information does his strange facial expressions offer us? Sorry, I can't get past that either...

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by lucid

Ruff, pick up the October issue of European Car magazine. They have a comparison between 3 modified cars: CaymanS, 911S, and M coupe. The Porsches both have 3.8l engines. CaymanS makes ~400hp, 911S ~395hp, and M ~365. CS and M are on KW V3 suspension, C2S stock. M on Brembos, P cars stock brakes. CS is about 100lbs lighter than the other two. Austrilian P Cup driver at Race City Motorsport Park. Best lap times: M 92.15, CS 91.25, and C2S 90.45.

They say although the CS "felt" faster (I did have a slightly higher peak speed). C2S posted slighly higher peak deceleration numbers. They attribute the faster lap times of the C2S to higher exit speeds (apex to exit), and its ability to put power down coming out of turns (they don't publish that data but they seem to have them since they have traqmate). C2S is on wider rubber though in the back with 305 vs 275 for the CS and the M.

I finally read the article. The driver preferred the feeling of the C2S Slow in fast out is the the rule!

The other thing is this. While many may want a bigger engine in the Cayman, unless the suspension and chassis are changed, it may not do well. It may upset the balance, etc. This is why I said that I suspect the Cayman will be faster than a C2S, but the suspension and chassis will need some work to handle that extra HP. You don't want the steering and chassis to drag behind the engine. In fact, one very common thing is that tuners will often add HP and make basic suspension/chassis mods, but the feeling changes a lot. It's not that easy. Porsche CAN do it I think, but will they? I don't believe they will anytime soon. Their product gaps are clear - whether some like it or not. So it's not like - hey we just need the same engine in the Cayman. It's a lot more than that. And that's a whole other effort that I'm not sure Porsche will do at this point. So for me, the C2S is still the platform of choice until things change.

[krnnerdboy]

I traded my 997 in for my e85m b/c it was more involving and more my driving style...and currently the only car that can get me out of the e85m is the cayman s...maybe

and to simply answer the OP's question...if I have a second car the cayman s over the m3 all day any day

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by GatorBlue371

You could believe some dumb fanboy, our you could belive the people who rank cars by their driving expirience.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...car/index.html


If you notice, the M3 wasnt even in the test.


They dont invite back the loosers.

Gator Blue,

Nothing against the new Cayman S - fantastic car by anyone's standards. To refer to the M3 as a "loser" though, when it took second place per Pobst in the October 2008 issue of Motor Trend on the same track (Leguna Seca) AND BEAT THE CAYMAN S in lap time (check the Oct. 2008 and Oct. 2009 issues - Cayman S best lap 103.0 seconds - M3 102.964 seconds (reported as 1:42.964. Of course the Cayman S has certain advantages over the M3, but given the M3 is an adaptation of a 3 series with a full back seat and trunk and still slightly beat out the new Cayman S on a renowned track such as Leguna Seca shows not only that the M3 is by no means a "loser," but also shows you didn't do your homework (and in the process, making yourself look like a fanboy).

[footie]

Originally Posted by Powerslide

Gator Blue,

Nothing against the new Cayman S - fantastic car by anyone's standards. To refer to the M3 as a "loser" though, when it took second place per Pobst in the October 2008 issue of Motor Trend on the same track (Leguna Seca) AND BEAT THE CAYMAN S in lap time (check the Oct. 2008 and Oct. 2009 issues - Cayman S best lap 103.0 seconds - M3 102.964 seconds (reported as 1:42.964. Of course the Cayman S has certain advantages over the M3, but given the M3 is an adaptation of a 3 series with a full back seat and trunk and still slightly beat out the new Cayman S on a renowned track such as Leguna Seca shows not only that the M3 is by no means a "loser," but also shows you didn't do your homework (and in the process, making yourself look like a fanboy).

That same Cayman S (295hp) was a full 1.2s slower than the M3 around Hockenheim where as the new Cayman S (320hp) is 0.4s faster than the M3 on the same circuit. The difference from old to new is 1.6s quicker, that's one heck of an improvement in anyone's book. So if you were basing your argument on laps times for this years group test then the M3 would have been at a disadvantage right from the off.

He got his facts right and I don't believe he has come across as a fanboy, he's choice of word to call the M3 as a 'loser' was a mistake because by anyone's reckoning the M3 is a seriously capable machine but it's not a purpose built sportscar of the type that the Cayman is and that will always separate the M3 from the likes of the Cayman, 911 and others.

Comparison of Mk1 Cayman S vs M3

Cayman S Mk2 Hockenheim Lap (click of Hockenheim for lap data)

[Dascamel]

Cayman should be faster, Porsche is holding back to sell more higher end cars.

[mrwonder]

Originally Posted by Nawaaz

Cayman S if you don't care about practicality. The Cayman S is more of a pure sports car. If you care more about having the perfectly balanced daily driver & track car.....Pick the M3 DCT. At the end, you just gotta test drive both to find out what suits you best of course.

+1. I have both and use them exactly as described above. The Cayman provides a more intimate driving expeirence, but with KW coilovers and Miltek exhaust it's just not comfortable enough as a daily ride for me.

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by footie

That same Cayman S (295hp) was a full 1.2s slower than the M3 around Hockenheim where as the new Cayman S (320hp) is 0.4s faster than the M3 on the same circuit. The difference from old to new is 1.6s quicker, that's one heck of an improvement in anyone's book. So if you were basing your argument on laps times for this years group test then the M3 would have been at a disadvantage right from the off.

He got his facts right and I don't believe he has come across as a fanboy, he's choice of word to call the M3 as a 'loser' was a mistake because by anyone's reckoning the M3 is a seriously capable machine but it's not a purpose built sportscar of the type that the Cayman is and that will always separate the M3 from the likes of the Cayman, 911 and others.

Comparison of Mk1 Cayman S vs M3

Cayman S Mk2 Hockenheim Lap (click of Hockenheim for lap data)

Footie - I don't think you read the Oct. 2009 Motor Trend Article - it WAS the new 320 hp Cayman S with the 103 second lap time - so neither of you got your facts straight [no hard feelings to either one of you, I've certainly made mistakes too - so I'm just saying that in fun]

[bobbyd1961]

Originally Posted by FattyK

Wat do u all think. M3 DCT vs cayman S tiptronic? I think in terms of speed M3 wins hands down. Wat about overall driving experience? btw, I don't plan to track. thanks

no comparison in looks power handling fun etc., M3 baby!

[footie]

Originally Posted by Powerslide

Footie - I don't think you read the Oct. 2009 Motor Trend Article - it WAS the new 320 hp Cayman S with the 103 second lap time - so neither of you got your facts straight [no hard feelings to either one of you, I've certainly made mistakes too - so I'm just saying that in fun]

I misunderstood, I thought this comparison test had been conducted the previous year (2008) and not just within the last few weeks. I can only assume that the track either suits the M3's handling and power characteristic better or the Cayman S didn't have the LSD.

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by footie

I misunderstood, I thought this comparison test had been conducted the previous year (2008) and not just within the last few weeks. I can only assume that the track either suits the M3's handling and power characteristic better or the Cayman S didn't have the LSD.

Go to fastestlaps.com and compare: 1) first vehicle, either E92 coupe, E92 DCT/DKG or E90; 2) second vehicle - Cayman S (facelift) PDK (320 hp version). You will see that the three versions of the M3 outlapped the current Cayman S (320 hp) on all but one or two tracks. Again, not to say that the Cayman S doesn't have advantages over the M3 (it surely does), not to say the Cayman S is not one of the greatest sports cars built (it clearly is), but given the M3 is based upon a small family sedan/coupe with a front engine, legitimately sized back seat and trunk, whereas the Cayman S is a purpose-built sports car with a mid-engine, no back seat, minimal trunk and much lower weight/center of gravity than the M3, and the M3's lap times become that much more impressive when viewed in that context.

My point is that all of these nay-sayers who go out of their way to minimize the M3's accomplishments obviously aren't looking at the facts. Especially comments like "oh - the M3 is no longer a pure driver's car because it didn't make the Motor Trend Best Driver's Cars for 2009 (when it came in second/third best in the exact same test in 2008) is nonsense - keep in mind that other cars from the 2008 test (Nissan GT-R, Dodge Viper ACR, Porsche 911 Turbo) also didn't make the 2009 results - do those people really think that those cars (like the M3) suddenly went from among the top ten cars in 2008, and only a year later, suddenly no longer qualify as "drivers" cars (especially after reading Pobst's comments about the M3 in the October 2008 issue? Seriously...

Conclusion: Cayman S with PDK (320 hp) - one of the greatest sports cars yet designed by mankind - no doubt about it!

M3 - arguably one of the greatest front-engined, back-seated, regular-sized trunk equipped "sports" cars yet designed by man - no doubt about that either! Especially comparing lap times of the M3 vs. 320 PDK-equipped Cayman S (LSD or not)!

[Nawaaz]

^ I'm glad you said all that.

In my eyes, my M3 Sedan is one hell of a sports car.

[footie]

The problem when comparing the Cayman S lap times from Fastestlaps is not knowing which ones is equipped with the LSD and which aren't because it does make a world of a difference to it's times. Of the ones I know were the LSD has been used the Cayman S is quickest.