M3 - What will BMW do first? DI or TT

[Redadair]

What will BMW do first:

BMW will incorporate Direct Injection on the current 4.0 V8, or BMW will replace the current 4.0 V8 with a new Twin Turbo V8?

I am holding out for a NA engine with DI. However the TT is going to be a Monster!

Red

[Born2Panic]

Neither...if the go TT I could see them going down to a 6 cyl. They have to leave room for the M5 and M6 to go to a TT 8 cyl so M3 would probably be smaller. They might DI to help with fuel economy...10-15%?

[mkoesel]

Both of BMW's modern turbocharged motors, the N54 inline 6 and N64 V8, feature HPI (direct injection). I suspect M will follow suit, and incorporate both at the same time as well. They've almost surely done this already for the X6 M (though we don't have engine details yet), which uses the N64 as a basis for its engine, and the M5 is supposed to get the same (or very similar) motor too.

I also agree with Born2Panic - M5/M6 will get a V8 as we know, so M3 almost surely goes back to an I6. The only other possibility would be a smaller displacement V8 for the M3 which is possible but not really likely.

[Redadair]

I tend to disagree with the idea of going back to a 6 in the M3. The reason is this, they already have the N54 engine for the 335i that makes 100 HP per liter. The current M3 HP is 415 from a 4.0 Liter engine. If they were to use the 6 they would need to increase the size of the engine to 3.5 or 4.0 Liters to be in the ~425 HP range.

This is where I have the issue. BMW likes to stay at a max of 500 CC per cylinder, however they did push this limit somewhat in the previous M3 motor by increasing its size to 3.2 Liters. This is the original reason they chose to use a V8 in the e90 M3.

I see a new 4.0 Liter V8 Twin Turbo tuned to its upper limits reaching ~450 HP and Torque. They are going to want to hit a home run with this engine since they are closing a major chapter in the history of Naturally Aspirated engines in the M cars.

I am still hoping for an interim upgrade to the current NA V8 of Direct Injection, though it may never happen.

Red

[Romo]

You mean 500cc per cylinder................

Future is hard to predict, it`s all about economic devellopment IMHO.......

Could be less HP and less weight in future cars.....................( Just to make Al Gore a happy guy)

[09E92M34ME]

I would say they will not give the current engine DI.

[montreal red]

Originally Posted by 09E92M34ME

I would say they will not give the current engine DI.

+1
there probably wont be any changes to the engine until the end of production. they'll introduce all the new "innovations" with the next gen m3

[Redadair]

Originally Posted by Romo

You mean 500cc per cylinder................

Future is hard to predict, it`s all about economic devellopment IMHO.......

Could be less HP and less weight in future cars.....................( Just to make Al Gore a happy guy)

Sorry that is what I meant to say, what was I thinking? You are correct 500 CC's per cylinder.

Red

[RandyB]

I wish they would have incorporated DI into the current 4.0 V8 but it's still a sweetheart of an engine. Here's a look at Porsche's DI system for their Cayenne V8:

[kronzprinz]

maybe something crazy like the ferrari F40 engine, except more civilized

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Redadair

I tend to disagree with the idea of going back to a 6 in the M3. The reason is this, they already have the N54 engine for the 335i that makes 100 HP per liter. The current M3 HP is 415 from a 4.0 Liter engine. If they were to use the 6 they would need to increase the size of the engine to 3.5 or 4.0 Liters to be in the ~425 HP range.

But remember, the N54 is not an M motor. There is no need to increase displacement for an M motor to make more power than more pedestrian series motors from which they derive, especially when forced induction is involved.

Here's what we know is coming soon: N64 derived M V8 with 500hp+; most powerful M motor ever. This goes into the X5 and X6 M, and reportedly (and significantly) the F10 M5. Details of this motor are not available yet but its nearly certain that the power gains over the standard N64 come not from displacement but from more boost and probably other changes to support that such as stronger bottom end, different cams maybe even different heads. Could be designed for higher RPM power as well. Anyway, if this all comes to pass, then a M3 with an N54 derived motor (or something similar) is a likely bet.

If you are still in doubt, just keep in mind that on the market today there are 2L turbo charged motors making nearly 300hp. So with 50% more dispacement, a 3L inline could surely make 450hp or so, especially with some of the worlds best engineers responsible for its design.

[Archon]

My opinion is also a twin turbo inline 6 with DI at 400hp+

What BMW SHOULD do is reduce the weight of the car.

Better performance and fuel economy...surprise

Time to dream....a 3200-3300lbs car...ohhhh.

[MMMorish]

Originally Posted by Archon

My opinion is also a twin turbo inline 6 with DI at 400hp+

What BMW SHOULD do is reduce the weight of the car.

Better performance and fuel economy...surprise

Time to dream....a 3200-3300lbs car...ohhhh.

+1

[Richie18]

With the new M3 coming in 2013(?) or so i think it's a no brainer that BMW will implement DI on the engine. Based how mow much time till the next engine, and the fact that they already have it being used in other BMW engines. More HP with increased efficiency, especially in a time when MPG is getting more and more scrutinized , what engineer is going to say no to that? I would say expect a mid-life update with DI.

Also seeing as it would definitely give the M3 more hp, it would keep it competitive with the new Audi RS5 and other possible competitors.

[Redadair]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

But remember, the N54 is not an M motor. There is no need to increase displacement for an M motor to make more power than more pedestrian series motors from which they derive, especially when forced induction is involved.

Here's what we know is coming soon: N64 derived M V8 with 500hp+; most powerful M motor ever. This goes into the X5 and X6 M, and reportedly (and significantly) the F10 M5. Details of this motor are not available yet but its nearly certain that the power gains over the standard N64 come not from displacement but from more boost and probably other changes to support that such as stronger bottom end, different cams maybe even different heads. Could be designed for higher RPM power as well. Anyway, if this all comes to pass, then a M3 with an N54 derived motor (or something similar) is a likely bet.

If you are still in doubt, just keep in mind that on the market today there are 2L turbo charged motors making nearly 300hp. So with 50% more dispacement, a 3L inline could surely make 450hp or so, especially with some of the worlds best engineers responsible for its design.

While its true engines like the Mitsubishi Evo 2.0 make close to 150 HP per Liter, and a 3 Liter BMW engine could be tuned to this level equaling 450 HP engines tuned to this level usually provide a very peaky power band.

I’ll still keep my bet on the V8 at this point, but I could be wrong. Its interesting to look at the possibilities for the next M3.

If the current E90 M3 has 3 years or so production ahead of the next new M3, I think it may still be reasonable to think BMW may add DI to the current engine as a mid model upgrade, especially if the competition continues to push the HP numbers up. Again, Why didn’t BMW add DI to this current engine? This is the single biggest technology omission that they could have done to the new M3.

Red

[MJC///M3]

Originally Posted by Archon

My opinion is also a twin turbo inline 6 with DI at 400hp+

What BMW SHOULD do is reduce the weight of the car.

Better performance and fuel economy...surprise

Time to dream....a 3200-3300lbs car...ohhhh.

well said, completely agree.

[RandyB]

I would say expect a mid-life update with DI.

History would indicate otherwise, although it would be a nice addition. DI is not something they can easily integrate into the current engine without having to change much, and they don't like to do that mid-cycle.

[Ronin13]

Originally Posted by Archon

My opinion is also a twin turbo inline 6 with DI at 400hp+

What BMW SHOULD do is reduce the weight of the car.

Better performance and fuel economy...surprise

Time to dream....a 3200-3300lbs car...ohhhh.

Would love to see less weight, but in a world where the new Z4 is now pushing 3500lbs, I'm not holding my breath. It really is going to require the next 3 series platform to get smaller to make a dramatic dent.

[Archon]

Originally Posted by Ronin13

Would love to see less weight, but in a world where the new Z4 is now pushing 3500lbs, I'm not holding my breath. It really is going to require the next 3 series platform to get smaller to make a dramatic dent.

I agree. However since we are in speculation talk...

BMW did announce no more V-8 for the next M3, it will be a smaller engine if true.

The math is there, to motivate a car in a certain weight to a certain performance, you will need a certain amount of power.

With that, the next M3 will perform better than the current, if you assume this.

I think with the CF roof and the CSL, BMW proved to be willing to go with radical materials to achieve weight savings.

BMW if you're reading this, it is time to go Aluminum chassis! Again, fantasy talk...haha.

[zuggerat89]

How about a 2.4L V8 with a 19,000 RPM redline? Wait... they have that already... woops ///M

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by zuggerat89

How about a 2.4L V8 with a 19,000 RPM redline? Wait... they have that already... woops ///M

Yeah because a racing engine gets great fuel economy!

[GnokGnik]

They are going to surprise us with a hydrogen fuel cell generator with an electric motor.