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12-14-2008, 10:20 AM | #67 | |||
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There's more, but I also can fully understand the viewpoint that the 7:29 is literally unbelievable. How about this? I haven't been actually trying to convince you to change your mind, but simply have supplied some data points. I'm comfy with you feeling the way you do, so how about you stop trying to inflict your viewpoint on me with an effort toward conversion? Quote:
Of course, it's been a continued source of amusement for me that the BMW faithful get so exercised about a Nissan. That's obviously because the GTR is an M3 killer at what used to be very similar pricing, but still, literally hundreds of posts? Makes me grin. Bruce |
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12-14-2008, 12:40 PM | #68 |
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This is an amazing forum. You guys are so biased it's unbelievable. I'm sure a lot of you guys came from e46 m3. You guys diss the Nissan but can we say smg. It's not if it will fail but when. What about early s54 failure. You guys forget that BMW initially denied warranties on those failed motors. Supposed bad bearings. Give me a break. What about VANOS? Again, it's not if it will fail but when. Let's not forget the rear floor on the e46's falling out.
I'm a rep in the auto industry. Let's see what happens when e92's get some miles and they are driven hard. Let's see what BMW does with regards to the warranty. If you have an all wheel drive car you don't get any wheel spin your going to put a lot of energy into the drive train. Sh*t smg transmission are failing left and right on rwd cars. This is bias is something that i've seen on a lot of forums. Keep an open mind. Don't be mad because the Nissan will beat the M3 in every category. At least nissan stepped up. what about the fact that BMW has killed the CSL version of the car but the continue to make the hideous X6. |
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12-14-2008, 03:05 PM | #69 | |
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I totally agree with everything you wrote. I remember friends with earlier M3 talking about the engine problems and how BMW were not recalling all of them but only repairing the failures as they appeared. It made me wonder what would happen the rest once out of warranty. I also knew about the smg failures but I though BMW fixed those, though did they not change the LC on M5/6 in the US. These again shows that even BMW have to pull in the reigns from time to time. It's said among the 'car industry' that BMW do 3/4 of the research and development work themselves and the final 1/4 is done by their customers, a bit harsh as I would reckon all are as bad as each other. |
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12-14-2008, 04:56 PM | #70 | |
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1)Walter Rohrl did drive the GTR and his best time was a 7min45s - I googled it before I posted. http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/107229-ri...not-stock.html Check post number 3 in the above link 2)I understand what a difference confidence can instill on a track like the ring, its all speculation though and it was more likely a chip tune to bump up the horses than bushes - like they did before in the 90s- sure I am pulling my thumb out my ass but Nissan are old cheats and its a dark horse that will stay with them forever. WRT the warranty claim - if using a feature that the Manufacturer put there in the first place damages a car, the obligation is on the Manufacturer. A page in a book does not cover you legally as a Manufacturer without being signed and acknowledged by the owner during the time of sale. Heck man, what happens when the salesman shows you how to use it in the showroom when you fetch your car and tells you "Let her rip man- we tested it and its A-OK". What is the definition of abuse? 3 launches in a row? 30 launches? 100 launches? If the car was modified to override any safeguards then its obviously the owners fault. Autocar had similar issues when they got their hands on one of the first examples. Nissan should have taken note then before they launched the GTR in the USA. Its a legal matter really- let the lawyers fight it out. Last edited by Doc; 12-14-2008 at 06:04 PM.. |
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12-14-2008, 05:20 PM | #71 | |
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Last edited by Doc; 12-14-2008 at 05:41 PM.. |
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12-14-2008, 05:37 PM | #72 | |
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PS I thought its common knowledge that Walter did a 7min45s in the GTR - thats why I said lets face facts. Check the link above for proof PSS I love the GTR.. thats why I am on the waiting list for one. Its in another league compared to an M3, not even a 997 turbo can run it around a track - thats a fact Last edited by Doc; 12-14-2008 at 06:28 PM.. |
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12-14-2008, 05:45 PM | #73 | |
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Also 9 seconds improvement through slight mods isn't unheard of, hack even Walter improved his time in the Carrera GT by 8 seconds without any modifications. Point being is that such is the length and variation on each corner of the ring that it's very possible for the very same GTR that posted the original 7:38 lap could have been the one that posted the 7:29. I understand Porsche's position, it's world was ripped apart by the GTR. Here was a car that at less than half the price was even quicker than it's almost top model and it proved how over priced their cars were. Why does everyone on this forum feel that Nissan has had to cheat to prove it's worth, just look at every other comparison test where the GTR has been put up against the competition, be it the GT2, the Gallardo LP560 or the 997Turbo. In almost every test the GTR has proved worthy of it's title and it's position as an equal to all others, so why cheat at the ring when all other tests are proving so positive. The norm is for each new model to dramatically improve it lap time over the last. The 996 GT2 lapped in 7:46 and the 997 GT2 in 7:32 an improvement of 14s, likewise the M3 does similar, as does the RS4. So why believe Nissan aren't capable of such improvements that all other companies seem to do on a regular bases. I personally find it pitiful at everyone from Porsche to BMW M3 owners use this disbelief as the only way make them feel better about their own decisions, in Porsche's case their decision to price their cars that high and M3 owners in their decision to pick the M3 over the much more talented GTR. |
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12-14-2008, 05:49 PM | #74 | |
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Just in case you didn't know. The GTR is quicker around Silverstone than both the GT2 and the Gallardo LP560, and in both cases the GTR was over 10 mph slower on Hanger straight. Now what does that not say about it's handling in the corners of which there is a shit load on the Nurburgring. |
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12-14-2008, 07:24 PM | #75 | |
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It should be called FQ GTR, but it aint doing 7min29s stock - no fucking ways man |
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12-14-2008, 07:30 PM | #76 |
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Here is a quote from the GTR forum :
"I suggest you read the full thread, particularly this comment: Just to add a bit towards your post dr S. The aforementioned rallye star during one of the recent nurburgring 24hrs 30-45s a lap quicker than even the manthey car when heavy fog descended on the Eifel. He knows the place very very well. I dropped him an email and he sent me this and asked me to post it onto the discussion: "Hi Adam, Its funny how fast information goes around the world! I drove the Nissan GTR yesterday for KW with the KW clubsport and with the original suspension. All other parts were stock and the weight was original! Due to the fact, that there where some passing manouvers and 2 small mistakes in my line, the theoretical best time, calculated from my best sectors (with data logger), was a 7.46. ( a real lap was 7,49) So I think, it is not possible, to go faster, when W.Röhrl and Chr.Menzel also where not able to go under 7.45! The secret source, who watched the test of the 3 cars is not so secret: He owns a guest house in Nürbrug and was there at the test and watched everything. I spoke to him 2 days ago and it was true that tha car was far away from stock, that means power, sound, tyres, exhaust, weight! But anyway the Nissan GTR is fast also in stock outfit and fun to drive. Only when acclerating it would need more power to the rear, to kill the understeer. Under braking conditions it steers very good into corners! Sometimes to much, but then it is even more fun! If You want, You can post that in the internet! Source: Wolf! Danke und Viele Grüße" I am a big fan of the GTR, I am a little saddened that Nissan have cheated which does detract hugely from the cars very impressive performance. (7:45 full laps is astonishing for such a heavy car). best, adam The poster Adam is a friend of mine who is very credible in that he lives in Nurburg and works for a local race/instruction team. He also drives his 997 GT3RS there almost every day, so knows most people." |
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12-14-2008, 07:40 PM | #77 | |||||
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7:37? 7:30? 7:33? 7:35? Anything below 7:38 will do, so please let me know what your superior knowledge from afar tells you. Bruce PS - I am not a fan of the car and would trade it away if someone gave me one, but absolutely love the fact that it's a game changer. |
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12-14-2008, 07:58 PM | #78 | |
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I am not a Porsche camp defender but when they say their cars do times on the ring, Horst has gotten close or matched their times. Them commenting on others cars though is a different story Nissan have an infamous reputation of being fucking liars so when people who have experience driving the ring are doing 7min45s in std GTR then Nissan have some explaining to do.(or may be not since we knew all along...) I am still waiting for Sport Auto to do their test and then we will see what the GTR is really worth on the ring. If it does get below 7min45 with Horst von Sauma behind the wheel(the same man who did 7min32.something in a GT2) then I will accept all u have said Bruce but till that time comes you in a losing camp.. or simply are a loser. Last edited by Doc; 12-14-2008 at 08:31 PM.. |
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12-14-2008, 08:39 PM | #79 | ||
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But hey, we agree that the car is faster than a 997 Turbo, so where between 7:30 and 7:37 would you put it? I'd just like to know whether we're disagreeing to the amount of one second, or as many as eight seconds? Bruce |
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12-14-2008, 08:56 PM | #80 | |
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Trust me.. People think I am a classy grease monkey when they meet me they fall of there chairs when they later find out what my hands actually do Its not going to get close to 7min 38s unfortunately and I don't think a 997 turbo is that fast either. Porsche are panicking and putting a time out to save face, which is as bad as Nissan lying.. meaning I dont think that the 997T that set that time is the same as the one you can drive off the showroom floor Sport Auto don't disappoint - they will have stock GTR with stock 997 turbo running same sunny day, same driver, same fuel. Bets?.. i stand by my initial statement GTR -will be about 7m 45s give or take a second or two |
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12-14-2008, 11:55 PM | #82 | |
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Not to mention most reasonable defenders of the GT-R time (yourself included) readily admit the car that did that time likely had at least 530 hp. Making the call as to whether this was cheating or dishonesty, given the factory specification of 480 hp, remains a personal decision for each of us. Horst had his shot with a showroom GT-R. He made a 7:50 with a track wet in some portions. |
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12-15-2008, 12:51 AM | #83 | |
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Well said Swamp2 Everyone that has taken std GTRs to the Ring have had bad luck with the weather. Sport Auto said they would retest new spec in the new year when conditions are perfect. |
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12-15-2008, 12:53 AM | #84 |
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12-15-2008, 06:26 AM | #85 | ||
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Next lets go over the actual output of the GTR, it has been admitted to me by a Nissan representative that the true figure is approx. 10% more than quoted and this then brings all the theory and maths work to a point where though still out side the normal expectations of the car it is still not much further away from Audi's own S3 regression figures. We can all view this excessive increase in actual power as cheating, but as they are all at it we can not really blame Nissan for going with the flow because that would have placed them at a disadvantage just for taking the moral high ground. Quote:
I look at Driver Republic's test of both the GTR and the GT2 and see things different to yourself and maybe others here. I see a real possibility that a stock GTR could have approached the time Nissan recorded, be it 3~4 seconds out but that could be made up in production variations or a different suspension setup. My only hope is that Nissan bring the GTR V-spec to the ring and let all comers in to see it's final testing and weight it, dyno it and be as open as possible. Things I might add that all of them need do. |
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12-15-2008, 07:28 AM | #86 |
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I can't believe that the 7:59 for an RS4 is being brought up again. Good bye, basis for discussion...
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12-15-2008, 08:16 AM | #87 | |
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OK, I was only highlighting the fact that Horst isn't always as quick as test drivers. The reason I choose the RS4 is because the difference was greater than most other, usually it's between 6~4 seconds but it's been as high as 9 seconds based on the data available. Maybe when more manufacturers post their own times we will see more differences like this. I just find it absurd that everyone on this site jumps on Porsche's bandwagon and believe that in their hands the GTR is only capable of 7:55, but on that same day their own cars all but matched their best efforts and yet Chris from DR couldn't get close to the GT2's time but almost repeated the GTR time and in piss poor conditions. You of all people are very level headed, do you honest think Porsche's own test wasn't at all biased towards their own products. |
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12-15-2008, 09:10 AM | #88 | |
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οἴδα οὐκ εἰδώς Best regards, south
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