Liqui Moly Engine Noise

[dc5s]

Perhaps this will be a PSA, or perhaps it will spurn some discussion.

Short story: I put LM 10w60 in my engine for the first time. It sounded broken. I immediately changed it back to BMW 10w60 and the car sounds perfect again.

Long Story:

My car (2013 ZCP, stock engine, 73k km's) is now just off warranty. It was time for an oil change, and I don't have free service any more. I live in a downtown condo, so car maintenance in the garage is frowned upon. I shopped around for oil change prices, and I found a reputable shop who would do the change for $200 CAD with LM oil. Nobody uses BMW oil in my area except the dealer - their price is about $300CAD inc. tax for an oil change. After reading all the threads with people praising LM oil, I thought I'd save the $100 and get an LM oil change.

I watched the tech do the oil change, and he did a great job, and the oil level was at the top.

On my drive home with the windows down, I started hearing noises. Non-pattern clicking from the engine that increased in frequency as RPM's increased. I nursed the car home and let it cool down.

I then did an experiment. First two videos are a cold-ish start two hours after I got home. you can see the temp gauge still have some residual oil temp from my earlier drive home. the noise is not apparent at idle or when revving.

These second videos are after a drive around the block to normal operating temp. the noise is apparent at idle and revving. the frequency of the noise increases when revving, but as you can hear it is not a regular frequency - it does not have a pattern.

it's hard to say whether the noise was coming from the top or bottom of the engine, but it seemed more likely to come from the top end.

the only change from yesterday and today (first time hearing this noise) is changing from BMW oil to LM.

I then rushed over to the BMW dealer and bought 8L of BMW 10W60 and a new filter. I waited until late in the evening and did my own oil change in the garage (hopefully nobody complains).

I took the car out, and thrashed on it as best I could in the city. No more noises - it sounds like it always has. No ticking besides the usual regular frequency valvetrain and injector noises.

The LM oil was in the car for approximately 1 hour of running time.

I read a couple of threads on this forum and bimmerpost about people complaining about similar noises with LM oil. My case is not unique - see http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1167323

Perhaps LM oil works well for others, but I won't be going back! The extra cost of the BMW oil is worth it for me now.

[dparm]

Some oils are just noisier than others. I don't have an SAE subscription anymore, but there was at least one research paper written about how the acoustics of an oil were not directly correlated to its performance in an engine.

In other words, for the proper oil viscosity, extra noise in brand A over brand B doesn't mean that oil is working any worse (or better).

If you sleep better at night with the quieter engine on BMW (SOPUS) oil, then go that route.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by dc5s

Perhaps this will be a PSA, or perhaps it will spurn some discussion.

Short story: I put LM 10w60 in my engine for the first time. It sounded broken. I immediately changed it back to BMW 10w60 and the car sounds perfect again.

Long Story:

My car (2013 ZCP, stock engine, 73k km's) is now just off warranty. It was time for an oil change, and I don't have free service any more. I live in a downtown condo, so car maintenance in the garage is frowned upon. I shopped around for oil change prices, and I found a reputable shop who would do the change for $200 CAD with LM oil. Nobody uses BMW oil in my area except the dealer - their price is about $300CAD inc. tax for an oil change. After reading all the threads with people praising LM oil, I thought I'd save the $100 and get an LM oil change.

I watched the tech do the oil change, and he did a great job, and the oil level was at the top.

On my drive home with the windows down, I started hearing noises. Non-pattern clicking from the engine that increased in frequency as RPM's increased. I nursed the car home and let it cool down.

I then did an experiment. First two videos are a cold-ish start two hours after I got home. you can see the temp gauge still have some residual oil temp from my earlier drive home. the noise is not apparent at idle or when revving.


These second videos are after a drive around the block to normal operating temp. the noise is apparent at idle and revving. the frequency of the noise increases when revving, but as you can hear it is not a regular frequency - it does not have a pattern.




it's hard to say whether the noise was coming from the top or bottom of the engine, but it seemed more likely to come from the top end.

the only change from yesterday and today (first time hearing this noise) is changing from BMW oil to LM.

I then rushed over to the BMW dealer and bought 8L of BMW 10W60 and a new filter. I waited until late in the evening and did my own oil change in the garage (hopefully nobody complains).

I took the car out, and thrashed on it as best I could in the city. No more noises - it sounds like it always has. No ticking besides the usual regular frequency valvetrain and injector noises.

The LM oil was in the car for approximately 1 hour of running time.

I read a couple of threads on this forum and bimmerpost about people complaining about similar noises with LM oil. My case is not unique - see http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1167323

Perhaps LM oil works well for others, but I won't be going back! The extra cost of the BMW oil is worth it for me now.

Your ticking noise came from your valve train and is not bearing related .
I heard more than once on this forum that LM ( Liqui Moly) makes our S65 more noisier !
Your choise was right to return with the BMW 10W60 oil , and now you can sleep on both of your ears again ..

Good job !

[Theodore]

I experienced the same thing with Motul 10W-60, see the link here for another video. It's especially unnerving when switching to one of these noisier oils for the first time right after a rod bearing change.

[Bx Tpr]

All the responses are correct. I changed to the LiquiMoly oil myself and the car was so loud I thought something was broken. The valve train noise slowly goes away as the oil breaks down.

A couple weeks ago I had my OEM headers coated and reinstalled without the heat shields. Also had the oil changed. I can barely hear the valve train anymore without the heat shields on.

[dc5s]

The sound is now back. It came back within 50 km of driving with BMW oil.

It has now been about 300km and the sound remains. However, it does not seem to be clicking at idle. Only when it is above idle does it occur. It is most apparent between 1500-2500 rpm.

It only occurs once the engine is at normal operating temp, and cannot be heard above 3000rpm.

I have a really hard time believing that it is the heat shields. It has to be coming from inside the engine. I've read all the threads I can find on this noise (there are several) and watched all the youtube videos (there are several), and it's amazing that there has never been a solution to this.

The fact that it is random and arrhythmic makes me think that it is not a lifter.

I am wondering if it is somehow related to the vanos. I understand that it is controlled by oil pressure, and i'm wondering if there is insufficient pressure until 3k rpm...or changing oil somehow elicited a small problem that was made worse by changing the type of oil.

[enycerz]

I have used Castrol 10w60, LM10W60 and Motul 10W60. and I found LM holds temperature much better.

[opihi5]

Many people, including me, have found that switching to Castrol 10w60 the noise goes away after 1-2 changes.

[quiksi]

I've been using 10-60 LM for years and I don't think mine has ever been that noisy

[GORDON.M3]

I just recently used some LM 10-60 in my car and added a bottle of Ceratec. 0 noises. Yes the valvetrain noise is louder on start-up, but after when the engine is warm, the engine is dead quiet. One thing I did notice like others was that the 10w60 ran a lot cooler and my temperature gauge did stay fairly stable compared to the BMW oil.

[ImolaMoop]

Originally Posted by Theodore

I experienced the same thing with Motul 10W-60, see the link here for another video. It's especially unnerving when switching to one of these noisier oils for the first time right after a rod bearing change.

Originally Posted by enycerz

I have used Castrol 10w60, LM10W60 and Motul 10W60. and I found LM holds temperature much better.

Does Motul make a 10w60 for cars?

[dparm]

Originally Posted by ImolaMoop

Does Motul make a 10w60 for cars?

No, but motorcycle oils are typically fine for cars. Many are API rated, the only difference being a slight tweak to the additive package for the clutches. I ran 300V motorcycle oil in my Audi S4 without any problems.

[GORDON.M3]

Yes Motul makes 10w60 for cars. 8100 X-POWER 10W-60.
People have mentioned the same noise coming that is found in the LM oil also. Apparently TWS is the only one that is quiet.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by gordon@

Yes Motul makes 10w60 for cars. 8100 X-POWER 10W-60.
People have mentioned the same noise coming that is found in the LM oil also. Apparently TWS is the only one that is quiet.

Oh nice, that must be a new product. Previously, you had to run the motorcycle "7100 4T" stuff.

[Shredicus]

None of that clickety-clack with my amsoil 5w50 fill.

I think I remember this coming up a couple times in the past with lm 10w60. It's significantly thicker than even tws if I recall..

[dparm]

Originally Posted by Shredicus

I think I remember this coming up a couple times in the past with lm 10w60. It's significantly thicker than even tws if I recall..

No way to know for sure since neither manufacturer publishes HTHS values. We can only hypothesize.

[dc5s]

latest update.

drove 1000km. noise persists, but still quieter than what is in those initial videos. additionally the noise doesn't occur at idle, only between 1200-2500rpm, at which point it sounds like it is rhythmic and constantly present, but difficult to discern because of the engine noise.

however, on my last drive on the highway, i cruised at highway speeds in 3rd/4th gear (5000-6500rpm) for several minutes. additionally I did some 2nd and 3rd gear redline pulls. once i got off the highway, i pulled off on a sidestreet next to parked cars and did not hear the noise. maybe there were one or two clicks, but it was essentially gone. the condition remained when I got home.

this weekend i took a 600km roadtrip (300k each way). at my destination, the noise was present. i then drove around in 2nd gear, cruising at 5000-7000 rpm for 2-3 minutes. i then checked the noise and it was gone.

so, it seems that high rpm (and thus high oil pressure) temporarily quiets the noise. which leads me to believe that it is either vanos related, or lifters are not fully lubricated under low oil pressure conditions.

[dc5s]

Originally Posted by opihi5

Many people, including me, have found that switching to Castrol 10w60 the noise goes away after 1-2 changes.

this is the oil that BMW used to sell?

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by dc5s

this is the oil that BMW used to sell?

BMW/Dealers stopped using Castrol. This you will get now from your BMW/Dealer..

[German Straight-6]

Originally Posted by Bx Tpr

All the responses are correct. I changed to the LiquiMoly oil myself and the car was so loud I thought something was broken. The valve train noise slowly goes away as the oil breaks down.

A couple weeks ago I had my OEM headers coated and reinstalled without the heat shields. Also had the oil changed. I can barely hear the valve train anymore without the heat shields on.

correct. LM and Motul 10w60 oils are thicker then the stock BMW Stuff, and the s65 bearing design is flawed from the factory. They prefer oil that’s more of a thin 10w60 or thick 10w50.

Once the LM or Motul breaks down, the engine will quiet down. These oils will provide better long term protection.

I’d recommend trying 10w50 if you are looking into using a better oil.

[dc5s]

After 3000km on the BMW oil, the noise went away. During the noise period, if I drove at high rpms for a few minutes (highway speeds in 3rd gear) or did a number of 2nd gear pulls, the noise was gone, but would return once the engine cooled down.

Occasionally I might hear it a little bit but it's very very faint and if I wasn't listening for it I'd never hear it.

I really think it's a lifter noise

[anerbe]

swapped out the LM 10W60 back to BMW TWS, and also experienced a reduction in noise, both during cold start, and warm engine ticking.

will send the LM with 5K miles to blackstone for further analysis.