ESS DCT software

[sales@ESSTuning]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

Roman, IMHO you are a prime reason why ESS is doing so well and a main reason I took interest in your E92 kit, keep up the good work.

Having said that I do see a tendency from time to time that certain individuals and in rhetoric on the forums that only ESS can tune BMW's properly, and that others just get by. I have to say I respectfully disagree, and I'm not so sure this DCT software is really needed as swamp has pointed out. I can't comment cause I haven't tried it, and I have no reason to doubt you as you have always been straight forward, but I have to say my stock software shifts very fast, 10.71 60-130 proves that, but major props to you for trying to make it even better.

I have seen the same rhetoric from other vendors customers also. You have been around long enough to know its always going to be that way as customers are very passionate about the products they own and they usually go out of their way to support it when they are happy. In the end its all about being happy with your purchase and having a good relationship with your vendor.

Maybe someday you can try out the DCT software and see what you think. Personally I have had it in my car for months and I would never go back. I really liked the DCT when I first got it. I did not see how it could have been improved on but it can be.

[bigpuna]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

No offense Todd, but when you start in on a thread about comparing ESS software to ANYONE else's, 9 times out of 10 it does get ugly.

?

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by bigpuna

?

I thought you were Todd@ESS, your posts have the same tone and approach, my apologies to you both, especially you!

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by Rom3n

I have seen the same rhetoric from other vendors customers also. You have been around long enough to know its always going to be that way as customers are very passionate about the products they own and they usually go out of their way to support it when they are happy. In the end its all about being happy with your purchase and having a good relationship with your vendor.

Maybe someday you can try out the DCT software and see what you think. Personally I have had it in my car for months and I would never go back. I really liked the DCT when I first got it. I did not see how it could have been improved on but it can be.

TOTALLY AGREE, Roman. Over the years I've seen a lot of it, and I have made statements that I regret. This about your DCT software, my intentions were not to take it off track.

[sales@ESSTuning]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

TOTALLY AGREE, Roman. Over the years I've seen a lot of it, and myself have made statements that I regret. This about your DCT software, my intentions were not to take it off track.

No worries / thread officially back on track

For anyone living in AZ or for anyone attending Bimmerfest or M-fest and would like to try out the DCT software just let me know. This is really the best way to make a decision one way or the other about it.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Rom3n

Ok you know more about the development of the DCT software then we do.

It some instances it appears that way. However, I certainly am not making the claim that I do, clearly I don't. I'm simply a fan of this system and technology and one who has studied it, simulated it and been through 3 software revisions personally. Instead of being a smart ass you could simply resort to facts and tell me how I am wrong and you are right.

Originally Posted by Rom3n

The delay is not in your touching the paddle but in the release of the clutch under high RPM and in kickdown mode. If you do not feel it then you most likely do not need aftermarket software.

There seems to be some room for improvement in the kick down operation. Can you tell us precisely how much faster kick down is with the ESS software (and under what conditions)? Again the devil is in the details. Many of us will not be satisfied with the basic claim "our shifts faster" or "we are faster under kick down", etc.

Originally Posted by Rom3n

When you add high levels of TQ to a software system that was not designed for it you will have issues. The factory software was designed to engage the clutch properly with the factory tq rating. By adding an additional 100 ft/lb of tq to it you are asking for it to do something it was not designed to do. The biggest issue is the release of the clutch is not fast enough with factory software and there is a high amount of heat generated while the clutch is slipping. This in turn causes the temp sensor in the transmission to throw the transmission into safe mode AKA limp mode. How do we know this ? because we tested it. If you disagree with this logic thats fine everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Sounds reasonable/correct to me. But which conditions specifically are those that will be generating so much slip and heat? It must be launch only. It sure as heck is not 2-3, 3-4 or any other higher shifts nor their corresponding single downshifts. Also, rather than programming, isn't a more logical choice when increasing torque to swap to a new clutch, either a new material or increased spring stiffness? Software alone seems like a stop gap type of fix.

Originally Posted by Rom3n

I said it would never be 100% resolved. If it is a deal breaker for you dont buy it

Which is in direct contrast to the initial claim in post #1 that, "This software will ... remove lag".

Originally Posted by Rom3n

I am 100% fine with people asking questions. I dont believe any part of this thread said you had to run our software. I think I have been very clear as to what our software does and does not do and how it works. The customers who run it have all been very happy with it. If you feel this software is not for you then I think at the end of the day we will both be ok.

Great, we can agree on mostof this for sure. I am still keenly interested in some specific details, perhaps too much technical detail will give away confidential or trade secret information. However, the more technical detail you can provide the more interest I think you will get from many folks here who are keenly aware of the complexity of the DCT system.

Cheers.

[sales@ESSTuning]

It some instances it appears that way. However, I certainly am not making the claim that I do, clearly I don't. I'm simply a fan of this system and technology and one who has studied it, simulated it and been through 3 software revisions personally. Instead of being a smart ass you could simply resort to facts and tell me how I am wrong and you are right.

I Did not intend to be a smart ass but I do not like to argue with people. The information I provided you disagreed with so I left it at that. We did alot of research on the software that runs this transmission. The fact that we can write custom DCT and SMG software should show you that we know a few things about the software used in the car and what it does. As I said before the software used in the current US spec and euro spec cars is not the original file that was developed by the software engineers at BMW to run this transmission. The version we use is a conservative hybrid version much like most of the software the consumer is given. This is the same reason people buy ECU software.

There seems to be some room for improvement in the kick down operation. Can you tell us precisely how much faster kick down is with the ESS software (and under what conditions)? Again the devil is in the details. Many of us will not be satisfied with the basic claim "our shifts faster" or "we are faster under kick down", etc.

Take your car out and cruise in 5th or 6th gear "D" at a normal speed and engage kickdown / WOT. The car will most likely downshift and you will feel a lag in power as the RPM's shoot up and the TCU begins to calculate when to engage the clutch. I believe the delay was a little over 2 sec but to be honest I would have to look it up. Eventually the clutch will engage and the car will shoot forward as it is put into gear. On NA cars this proceedure works fine its just a little slower than we like. On supercharged cars with 600+ HP doing this will often overheat the clutch and trigger the transmission overheat warning. In both software versions the delay in clutch engagement is removed so that the car can get into gear faster. On supercharged cars we also slightly reduce power thru the ecu during shifts to help with the process.

Sounds reasonable/correct to me. But which conditions specifically are those that will be generating so much slip and heat? It must be launch only. It sure as heck is not 2-3, 3-4 or any other higher shifts nor their corresponding single downshifts. Also, rather than programming, isn't a more logical choice when increasing torque to swap to a new clutch, either a new material or increased spring stiffness? Software alone seems like a stop gap type of fix.

See the above example. another example would be to WOT in manual and downshifting while not letting off the gas or by doing multiple LC's with the car. There is no option currently to change the clutch in the DCT. If you did you would still have the clutch being slipped by the factory software. Think about a manual clutch, even a high quality manual clutch can be damaged and can create additional heat if the operator slips it while driving. Better materials etc can help but if the driver wants to slip it he will. If you go to the extreme in hardware to resolve the issue the car can become undriveable for daily use. This is the same concept here. Even if you have a hardware solution the clutch will still be slipped by the software causing additional heat and and a lower level of performance. We feel from testing the fix for DCT heat related issues is software. We have never had an issue with our 600+ HP SC cars with DCT transmissions once we started running our custom software in them.

Which is in direct contrast to the initial claim in post #1 that, "This software will ... remove lag".

Ok sorry a correction is in order "will help with lag".



Great, we can agree on mostof this for sure. I am still keenly interested in some specific details, perhaps too much technical detail will give away confidential or trade secret information. However, the more technical detail you can provide the more interest I think you will get from many folks here who are keenly aware of the complexity of the DCT system.

I cannot discuss specific technical details of our software. Like I said before anyone interested I would be more then happy to take them out for a drive to expierence how the software performs. If you look thru my posts I have always been very open about all of our developments and I have answered as many of the questions asked as I can.

Cheers

[swamp2]

Good, post, finally some solid details. I appreciate that as I am sure many potential customers do as well. How about a complete list, point by point of each improvement you have made in the software, or have you already listed all of them? Obviously you guys know "a thing or two" about the DCT software. That really never was in question.

How about sharing some of this knowledge to shed some light on the largest remaining blemish with the DCT software, the lag. Do you know exactly what causes it? Is is from the ECU and DCT together? Why does the DCT lag in the particular way it does but no other DCTs/DSGs seem to have this particular quirk? Why can't you (nor BMW) get it entirely eliminated?

Thanks again.

[Lemans_Blue_M]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Good, post, finally some solid details. I appreciate that as I am sure many potential customers do as well. How about a complete list, point by point of each improvement you have made in the software, or have you already listed all of them? Obviously you guys know "a thing or two" about the DCT software. That really never was in question.

How about sharing some of this knowledge to shed some light on the largest remaining blemish with the DCT software, the lag. Do you know exactly what causes it? Is is from the ECU and DCT together? Why does the DCT lag in the particular way it does but no other DCTs/DSGs seem to have this particular quirk? Why can't you (nor BMW) get it entirely eliminated?

Thanks again.

It's a mechanical limitation of the dual-clutch transmission itself Marshall.

Software can only help/hurt the lag issue by a few percentage points either way.

BMW (or an aftermarket tuner) will only be able to manipulate the lag performance issue to very small degree, because the mechanical operation of the dual-clutch transmission itself is the truly limiting factor here.

Dual-clutch transmissions are in their infancy with regards to their implementation in street cars. The OE DCT manufacturers are still fleshing out this technology, and there will be mechanical improvements along the way. (that will improve performance)

The specific DCT lag issue you are most concerned with, can not be fixed 100% via software reprogramming. That's because it's not actually caused by 'faulty' or inadequate DCT factory software. So while the factory DCT software may not be perfect, it's certainly not the smoking gun you seem to think it is...

I know this Marshall, because I have spoken with the Getrag engineers who designed the 7DCI600 M-DCT transmission, and the BMW M division engineers who programmed it for the M3.

[duk]

I have read that the M DCT tranny is very similar to the F458 tranny? Anyone shed light on this plz?

[Lemans_Blue_M]

Originally Posted by duk

I have read that the M DCT tranny is very similar to the F458 tranny? Anyone shed light on this plz?

The new 7DCL750 Getrag dual-clutch transmission in the Ferrari F458 is actually the next generation of the current technology.

It has a stronger wet clutches, and of course a higher max torque limit. (553 lb/ft.)

Hell, even the new M3 GTS (Euro-spec only) features a new version of the DCT transmission in our cars.

This technology keeps 'evolving', with the goal of making it work better than the previous generation.

[rzm3]

Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M

This technology keeps 'evolving', with the goal of making it work better than the previous generation.

And make those of us who must have the best and latest technology spend more $$$

[Lemans_Blue_M]

Originally Posted by rldzhao

And make those of us who must have the best and latest technology spend more $$$

LOL...we actually got a pretty good deal, considering the research & development costs involved in bringing this dual clutch transmission to the marketplace.

I have been told repeatedly by a number of reliable sources, that BMW really took a bath on the DCT. ($$$$$$$$$$)

Considering the low manufacturing volume, the staggering R&D costs, and the software headaches on the back end (coupled with the early failures due to the 1200mi tranny oil service fiasco), this DCT transmission experiment has not been a home run for BMW. (from a business perspective)

Unfortunately, that's how it works out sometimes. These things happen (when you take a chance), while trying to launch any new automotive technology into mainstream vehicle manufacturing.

Hiccups are bound to occur, despite your best efforts to prevent them...

BMW will never recoup the losses they have already incurred to date, and that number may actually increase substantially, if the long-term reliability data turns out to be overly optimistic. (time will tell)

Anyone who wants to keep this car past 50k or 4yrs., better think long and hard about getting the BMW extended warranty protection.

A new DCT transmission (installed) will run you 10k at the stealer.

And NO, the DCT transmission cannot be repaired in the field.

Replacement is your only option, since any actual repairs to the M-DCT transmission actually takes place at Getrag's authorized repair facility in Neuenstein, Germany.

[duk]

Thanks LMB for the great info as always. How does the DCT compare to DSG? Is it similar tech but by diff mfg? Sorry for going off topic.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Ok, but I guess what I am asking is, if there is no drawback, then why not just use the same program for simplicity sake.

Any comment, Rom3n?

[sales@ESSTuning]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Any comment, Rom3n?

It would be easy to use one file for both. We developed two files for the different applications they would be used in. Cluth engagement is slightly quicker in the SC file as required when power reaches 600+ chp. The NA file has a slightly smoother feel that some might prefer for daily driving and works great on applications up to 575 chp. The SC file is only available to customers who run our supercharger kit.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Rom3n

It would be easy to use one file for both. We developed two files for the different applications they would be used in. Cluth engagement is slightly quicker in the SC file as required when power reaches 600+ chp. The NA file has a slightly smoother feel that some might prefer for daily driving and works great on applications up to 575 chp.

Thank you for your reply. I suspect that I would personally want the most aggressive software regardless of how the car felt. Therefore, I would want the "SC file" even for my car which has a stock engine and ECU.

If you could - is there a link that discusses the pricing and waranty information for your software in detail?

[Steveo]

Rom3n,

I have a few more questions:

The M3 has 5 modes each in auto and manual settings (with an extra in DSC off mode)

Has ESS reprogrammed all of these different modes in each manual and auto settings?

Is it possible to keep say the auto mode 1 setting during the flash procedure? (for setting off in second gear during slippery conditions) With this setting, it slips the clutch a lot due to taking of in second gear, does this cause premature wear on the clutch as i use it a lot?

Has the ESS software deleted the driving style adaptation feature of the BMW software?

Do you have a specific date or Q2, Q3 for the Norway tuning facility?

oh and pricing details for the ECU and DCT flashes, individual and combo pricing via PM if you dont want to post

Thanks

Steve

[rzm3]

What kind of warranty does ESS provide for the DCT box after your software is loaded?

[sales@ESSTuning]

Originally Posted by Steveo

Rom3n,

I have a few more questions:

The M3 has 5 modes each in auto and manual settings (with an extra in DSC off mode)

Has ESS reprogrammed all of these different modes in each manual and auto settings?

Is it possible to keep say the auto mode 1 setting during the flash procedure? (for setting off in second gear during slippery conditions) With this setting, it slips the clutch a lot due to taking of in second gear, does this cause premature wear on the clutch as i use it a lot?

Has the ESS software deleted the driving style adaptation feature of the BMW software?

Do you have a specific date or Q2, Q3 for the Norway tuning facility?

oh and pricing details for the ECU and DCT flashes, individual and combo pricing via PM if you dont want to post

Thanks

Steve

We will post more info up on the website soon.

[sales@ESSTuning]

Originally Posted by rldzhao

What kind of warranty does ESS provide for the DCT box after your software is loaded?

We do not warranty any part of a customers drivetrain when he / she installs our products. This goes for software and hardware. This is pretty standard practice in the industry.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M

It's a mechanical limitation of the dual-clutch transmission itself

The debate on this topic was moved to this thread by PG.