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      05-22-2018, 11:47 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
I mean, it's a FWD based car... I don't know how anyone could buy a Golf R/RS3, the value proposition just isn't there. They cost real money but are basically FWD.
The regular Golf GTi is a cool car though if you want a decent daily driver
The RS3 / TTSRS have an upgraded Haldex system can throw 100% of power to the rear. It sounds mega, has all weather capability, is a seriously high quality item (particularly the interior) - I can absolutely see the appeal.

Similarly the Golf R is a massive amount of performance, practicality and fun. If your talking new cars its pretty unbeatable for the money. $40k on a new BMW will get you a poverty spec 3 series with Apple Car play and crappy fake leather seats.
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      05-22-2018, 11:50 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
The RS3 / TTSRS have an upgraded Haldex system can throw 100% of power to the rear. It sounds mega, has all weather capability, is a seriously high quality item (particularly the interior) - I can absolutely see the appeal.

Similarly the Golf R is a massive amount of performance, practicality and fun. If your talking new cars its pretty unbeatable for the money. $40k on a new BMW will get you a poverty spec 3 series with Apple Car play and crappy fake leather seats.
'Can' is the key word there though.

The car operates as a FWD car. If needed, it can provide power to the rear wheels.

Audi gives you a hint with their RS3/TTRS products by using wider tires up front than in the rear. This should quickly remove any shred of doubt about what the cars are.
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      05-22-2018, 12:03 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
'Can' is the key word there though.

The car operates as a FWD car. If needed, it can provide power to the rear wheels.

Audi gives you a hint with their RS3/TTRS products by using wider tires up front than in the rear. This should quickly remove any shred of doubt about what the cars are.
Front wheel drive cars can be just as fun on the road. I had a 2017 A3 1.4 TDi rental in Italy last year, chassis felt great and it was super fun to throw into the corners. The engine was pretty gutless, but the overall feel and ergonomics were spot on. I can imagine that platform with more power and suspension tuning being a great steer.
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      05-22-2018, 12:09 PM   #70
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Few FWD cars are properly balanced (VW in particular has done a stellar job with this, as did Alfa Romeo with the 'Sud), but when they are they can be a blast to drive.
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      05-22-2018, 12:10 PM   #71
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One aspect I haven't seen mentioned yet...
This car has already seen ~50% depreciation from sticker price and will likely not drop too much lower, maybe 5-10k. Compare that to a new Civic or whatever which will go from sticker price down to 5k in 10 years. Yes, maintenance is more expensive on the E90 and there are a few worries, but when you hit 8300 rpm for the first of many times those thoughts will disappear.
If you are concerned about the maintenance expense and are on the fence, if you are mechanically inclined, jump right in. If you would prefer to have BMW service your car...I'd pass.
For example:
Spark plugs
Home gamer cost ~$100-120 and 2-4 hours
Dealer cost ~$400-600
Diff flush
Home gamer cost ~$40-80 and .5 hours
Dealer cost ~$200-300

There are many many many examples of this on the forum, but I think it should play a big role in the decision of people concerned about the financial side of owning these legends.

Side note on the depreciation thing. I bought my car for $28,900 with 62k miles in Feb '17 and was recently offered $33,000 for it with 72k miles and had to tell them it was not for sale. My advice would to be to buy a "desirable combination" ...6MT , rare color, slick top, zcp,...etc so you will depreciate less. Interlagos Blue 6MT FTW
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      05-22-2018, 01:27 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
The RS3 / TTSRS have an upgraded Haldex system can throw 100% of power to the rear. It sounds mega, has all weather capability, is a seriously high quality item (particularly the interior) - I can absolutely see the appeal.

Similarly the Golf R is a massive amount of performance, practicality and fun. If your talking new cars its pretty unbeatable for the money. $40k on a new BMW will get you a poverty spec 3 series with Apple Car play and crappy fake leather seats.
It can't though. The only way that system is sending 100% to the rear is under a simulation or scenario where there is 0% traction to the front, which would never happen in any real world driving situation.

That wasn't the problem though as I really don't think it matters unless you're a track rat, for me it was just the size. It felt like an economy car. If that doesn't bother you, (as well as the fake engine noise coming in through the speakers I can see the appeal of the Golf R).
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      05-22-2018, 02:20 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by pimp4cheddar View Post
Bumping an old thread as I'm still torn...

Is there really anything better in the market right now than an E90 M3 for the $30-$35k range???

Aside from warranty...maintenance is something every car will need so this is a wash.

My hesitation really comes down to: "DO I WANT TO BUY AN 8 YEAR OLD M3 FOR $32-$35k?"


It just seems like a good chunk of cash to pay for a car this old. I see a rare example or two of an E90 with under 40k miles around the USA...and as I get closer to my lease ending - I can't find anything that catches my eye under $50k (regardless of brand).

The new Audi lineup is dope.

BMW has nothing for me... the 3 series is unappealing. The 4 is the same...the 5 is huge.

Spending the amount of cash on an E90 and then having to spend another $4k on Bearing and Actuators just makes me nervous...and makes me feel like I'm forcing something and there are better options.


Am I over-thinking this?

I don't think you are overthinking this, but it's your need for a powerful, fun car with specific characteristics and specific price range that is getting you. I'm going to get flamed for this but I think my 6mt e90 M is a TERRIBLE daily driver. Its just too expensive to dd it if you do not DIY. It's running/Maintainence costs are quite huge and god forbid if anything goes wrong with the car which my aftermarket warranty does not cover. There was about 1 month where my dd had broken down and I was dailying the m3 and I did not like it. I felt like I was at the gas station every 2 days. I also feel too flashy driving it everyday.
My family hates sitting in the back of the m3. That is my; mom, sister, aunts and uncles dislike it, find it uncomfortable and cramped and prefer to ride in my 08 a4. On trips (which I bought it for) my step son as well as others dislike the firm - ish suspension and get queezy in the back.
Everybody is right, it's totally a wolf in sheep's clothing. Docile and sedate one moment, but get the revs up there and out comes the beast. However, just because BMW decided to throw a sedan body and seats over a sports car chassis and engine does not mean it can be comfortable for passengers, so really it's like a beast all the time and us enthusiast drivers tend not to feel how awesomely uncomfortable this car really is. I say it's awesome because I have a baby on the way and the sensible thing to do would be to sell the e90M and get an suv, but I just can't!! I don't want to sell my m3, but if it was my only car, I would.
That Chevy SS is supposed to be quite e39 m5 - like, since it has roots back to the Holden Monero which was a v8 supersedan designed to tangle with the E39 m5. I will admit the SS looks like big Malibu but a 6mt with that vehicle sounds really desirable to me and it falls close to your price range and would be way newer and more comfy the an e90M.

My 2008 a4 is an excellent dd this far. It gets decent gas mileage, has good power, has a more compliant suspension, auto steptronic 6spd tranny, and it's interior is ergonomically perfect. Audi NAILS their interior ergonomics. I just did rear brakes and rotors and it was less than half that what it would be for the m3!! So for me, huge maintenance costs, not so comfy rear seat, taught suspension, TERRIBLE gas mileage (which comes with high revving, big power) and RWD do not make for a good DD, but they make for an excellent weekend car! Anyway good luck with whatever you decide and yeah,, stay away from those older n54 engines. If you want to know why, just hop on the non M e90 post section and read some technical threads and user feedback. I'm not sure if some of them on that forum are in denial about their cars but I see so many "help, something isn't working right!" But then they are modding left and right at the same team as commenting on the awesome reliability of the car and that remarkable n54, but what yo do with all these problems and their car won't start. It's almost comical..check it out
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      05-22-2018, 03:18 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srmast1 View Post
I don't think you are overthinking this, but it's your need for a powerful, fun car with specific characteristics and specific price range that is getting you. I'm going to get flamed for this but I think my 6mt e90 M is a TERRIBLE daily driver. Its just too expensive to dd it if you do not DIY. It's running/Maintainence costs are quite huge and god forbid if anything goes wrong with the car which my aftermarket warranty does not cover. There was about 1 month where my dd had broken down and I was dailying the m3 and I did not like it. I felt like I was at the gas station every 2 days. I also feel too flashy driving it everyday.
My family hates sitting in the back of the m3. That is my; mom, sister, aunts and uncles dislike it, find it uncomfortable and cramped and prefer to ride in my 08 a4. On trips (which I bought it for) my step son as well as others dislike the firm - ish suspension and get queezy in the back.
Everybody is right, it's totally a wolf in sheep's clothing. Docile and sedate one moment, but get the revs up there and out comes the beast. However, just because BMW decided to throw a sedan body and seats over a sports car chassis and engine does not mean it can be comfortable for passengers, so really it's like a beast all the time and us enthusiast drivers tend not to feel how awesomely uncomfortable this car really is. I say it's awesome because I have a baby on the way and the sensible thing to do would be to sell the e90M and get an suv, but I just can't!! I don't want to sell my m3, but if it was my only car, I would.
That Chevy SS is supposed to be quite e39 m5 - like, since it has roots back to the Holden Monero which was a v8 supersedan designed to tangle with the E39 m5. I will admit the SS looks like big Malibu but a 6mt with that vehicle sounds really desirable to me and it falls close to your price range and would be way newer and more comfy the an e90M.

My 2008 a4 is an excellent dd this far. It gets decent gas mileage, has good power, has a more compliant suspension, auto steptronic 6spd tranny, and it's interior is ergonomically perfect. Audi NAILS their interior ergonomics. I just did rear brakes and rotors and it was less than half that what it would be for the m3!! So for me, huge maintenance costs, not so comfy rear seat, taught suspension, TERRIBLE gas mileage (which comes with high revving, big power) and RWD do not make for a good DD, but they make for an excellent weekend car! Anyway good luck with whatever you decide and yeah,, stay away from those older n54 engines. If you want to know why, just hop on the non M e90 post section and read some technical threads and user feedback. I'm not sure if some of them on that forum are in denial about their cars but I see so many "help, something isn't working right!" But then they are modding left and right at the same team as commenting on the awesome reliability of the car and that remarkable n54, but what yo do with all these problems and their car won't start. It's almost comical..check it out
Good post but I disagree with a few things:

1. People are really over-emphasizing the maintenance costs. The rotors are somewhat expensive at $800 but last about 60k mi. The pads are about the same cost as any other car. Tires can be expensive at $800-1200 every 20k mi but that would be the case with any car on summer tires. Could always go with a set of long lasting all-seasons if this is a major concern. Oil change once or twice a year runs $120. Pro-tip: get your oil from FCP Euro and never pay for oil again. What else is there worth mentioning? None of this adds up to astronomical running costs in my book. This isn't a Ferrari...not even a Porsche. From my perspective, the maintenance costs are very reasonable.

2. The warranty is a good idea, I learned this first-hand. With that said, these cars are quite reliable. My mechanic hates E9x M3s because they never need anything! Throttle actuators are not the end of the world and rod bearings can be swapped one time for ~$2k. In the context of a $30-35k car, is $2k really a show stopper? Everything else that can go wrong is not exclusive to the M3, though I agree the M-tax can sting sometimes. If you take your car to the dealer for every little thing, sure you're gonna get screwed, but that can be easily avoided.

3. I average 18mpg when I drive normal (mostly hwy to be fair). That's not great but it's also not comically bad like the S85 either. A brand new M4 would get maybe a couple extra MPG average. If you want a powerful car, 18mpg is not an astronomical price to pay. YMMV obviously, but we're talking an extra couple hundred bucks a year on gas over a "regular car". Big deal. Maybe you just drive the M3 harder than the A4?

4. There is nothing inherently wrong with RWD for a DD. I'm not sure what you were implying here. I live in an area that gets snow for half the year and the M3 does very well on winter tires. That's coming from someone who used to DD a WRX on snow tires. OP is in FL, so it's not an issue at all.

5. An E90 M3 is not in the least bit flashy. Unless your car is a bright color like red or blue, I guarantee nobody is noticing you. To the untrained eye, you are driving a 10yr old 328i. E92 is a little bit more flashy, but still no exotic.

6. I leave my EDC on comfort mode 99% of the time and have never had anyone complain about ride comfort. I would actually say it dampens highway bumps better than many of the "regular cars" I've been in (Mazda, Honda, etc). If I didn't know any better I'd think you were describing a car with track-oriented suspension mods rather than a stock M3. I guess I can understand the cramped complaint if you are tall and have tall passengers. That's a problem I'll never have so I can't relate, lol.

7. Ergonomically, the 3 series interior is just as good as an A4. I don't see any way in which it lacks in that area. The Germans know how to get this right.
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      05-22-2018, 03:30 PM   #75
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^ good post Iyzmi, agree with all you said.

These cars aren't that expensive to own IMO. And definitely not when you consider the trade-offs you get w/ driving it. My E70 X5 w/ the TT V8 is twice the cost, at least, to maintain than my E90.

And really, the car was 70K new, and maintenance costs will reflect that, despite what it's current value is. If TA's, RB's and other general maintenance are too worrisome, it's time to move on. Just my .02.
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      05-22-2018, 03:33 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srmast1 View Post
However, just because BMW decided to throw a sedan body and seats over a sports car chassis and engine does not mean it can be comfortable for passengers, so really it's like a beast all the time and us enthusiast drivers tend not to feel how awesomely uncomfortable this car really is.
uhhhh, the e90 3 series may be the most passenger car BMW ever built. i DD my e90 m3, have been for the last couple years. i never hear any complaints from passengers, most my family cant even tell i replaced my old 335D with an M3, they think its the same car.
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      05-22-2018, 03:44 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiggz View Post
^ good post Iyzmi, agree with all you said.

These cars aren't that expensive to own IMO. And definitely not when you consider the trade-offs you get w/ driving it. My E70 X5 w/ the TT V8 is twice the cost, at least, to maintain than my E90.

And really, the car was 70K new, and maintenance costs will reflect that, despite what it's current value is. If TA's, RB's and other general maintenance are too worrisome, it's time to move on. Just my .02.
I also completely agree with lyzmi

And I also have an X5, the 35i version. So far it's been significantly more expensive than either of my M3s. Ridiculous.
Oh, and it gets the same mileage on the highway if driven the same way. I've done multiple long highway trips and get around 21mpg in both.
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      05-22-2018, 04:28 PM   #78
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Really guys (gals) I love the hell out of my e90M and am not trying to speak badly about it, I'm just looking at it from a practical angle and in my opinion from one man expecting a baby to another:

1) It's not the best choice for only car + baby on the way and if you don't DIY, it is standard on labor and whether you DIY or not, consumables are quite a bit more expensive than many, many other cars.

2) There are more efficient, less expensive, more comfortable (of course less fun) and better suited to the task daily drivers out there.

3)It does get bad gas mileage. I get 14 to 15 avg mpg around town and I'm not hot rodding it all the time. I'm not driving it like grandma either. 18 mpg sounds...amazing.

4) My family did NOT rave about the comfort levels but then my e90 is not zcp so there is no comfort setting.

These are just mental notes I have made in my 2.5 years of ownership. Also, I feel like when I made the mental decision to buy the m3 I should have also made the commitment to DIY, but i didn't and i don't. It's perfect for a weekend fun car that i can put kids in the back of and go on a road trip in, but I would not want to shoulder the cost to daily it while not being a DIY person. Just my .02.

Last edited by srmast1; 05-22-2018 at 04:39 PM.
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      05-22-2018, 06:29 PM   #79
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Far too many people to personally quote - but I appreciate all the honest and truthful insight. I also appreciate everyone taking the time to post and help me out.


Honestly - this will be my 3rd BMW. srmast1 I had a 2009 E92 335i...don't even get me started with the shit reliability it had...but I loved the car when it did run lol. I do not miss those days though.

My current M235i is a torque heavy car and I average 17mpg...so averaging 15-18 isn't anything new.


I wanted to buy an F80 M3 (possibly a 2016) but even then...I'm getting 1 year of warranty then I'm on my own. I know a large part of the Central Florida community and there are a few shops and also Auto Tuning House that can do any heavy repair work I need.

Ngilbe36 You are spot on! This is really a big piece of the decision. I buy an A4 and it's worth shit in 3 years...but I'd be able to really benefit on a car like an E90.

Iyzmi Every point you made is exactly what I wanted to hear - thank you for taking the time and being honest!


What is really keeping my eye on the E90 M3 is this. Fact that my lease is up in a few months and I will be giving it back to BMW.

My wife has a Jetta and she wants a new SUV (probably Audi Q5)...and we are considering keeping her car since it's been paid off for 4 years. If this holds true...I'll be able to drive her Jetta while shopping for the E90 M3 I want...and I can still use it during normal day to day driving to work or long trips. Essentially...it'll be my DD. Realistically...I know myself and I'm an animal - so I'll probably end up DD'ing the E90 :-p...but this would be a great solution and allow me to have a garage queen (and I might be able to convince the wife to let me go E92 lol).
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      05-22-2018, 06:39 PM   #80
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FWIW, I have friends with an E90 who also complained about it being used for a family car. I had been the passenger seat and it was miserable, something must be weird with their setup or seat. I have an E92, wife has E90. Here she is on the way home from the hospital, 5'4", with PLENTY OF ROOM. We are quite happy with this. Don't mind the kankles.

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      05-23-2018, 01:05 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srmast1 View Post
Really guys (gals) I love the hell out of my e90M and am not trying to speak badly about it, I'm just looking at it from a practical angle and in my opinion from one man expecting a baby to another:

1) It's not the best choice for only car + baby on the way and if you don't DIY, it is standard on labor and whether you DIY or not, consumables are quite a bit more expensive than many, many other cars.

2) There are more efficient, less expensive, more comfortable (of course less fun) and better suited to the task daily drivers out there.

3)It does get bad gas mileage. I get 14 to 15 avg mpg around town and I'm not hot rodding it all the time. I'm not driving it like grandma either. 18 mpg sounds...amazing.

4) My family did NOT rave about the comfort levels but then my e90 is not zcp so there is no comfort setting.

These are just mental notes I have made in my 2.5 years of ownership. Also, I feel like when I made the mental decision to buy the m3 I should have also made the commitment to DIY, but i didn't and i don't. It's perfect for a weekend fun car that i can put kids in the back of and go on a road trip in, but I would not want to shoulder the cost to daily it while not being a DIY person. Just my .02.
Man, I drive my car hard and still get 17-18 mpg. It is tuned though and I think that helped.

I'm in the minority (with you) that the car is at times to sports car for comfort for family. Everyone who I have let drive it has trouble as it is "jerky" at low speeds. When slowing down, you gotta be careful or your family is bout to get whiplash from that brake-jerk. I do like having 4 doors because of my kid, but we use my wife's SUV 95% of the time as a family, and I think that's just the way it will go.

I daily mine and never felt it was overly flashy. It hardly gets noticed (except by base Mustangs and craptastic Elantras who are always trying to race me or something) even with some mild carbon fiber accessories.
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      05-23-2018, 01:07 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srmast1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by pimp4cheddar View Post
Bumping an old thread as I'm still torn...

Is there really anything better in the market right now than an E90 M3 for the $30-$35k range???

Aside from warranty...maintenance is something every car will need so this is a wash.

My hesitation really comes down to: "DO I WANT TO BUY AN 8 YEAR OLD M3 FOR $32-$35k?"


It just seems like a good chunk of cash to pay for a car this old. I see a rare example or two of an E90 with under 40k miles around the USA...and as I get closer to my lease ending - I can't find anything that catches my eye under $50k (regardless of brand).

The new Audi lineup is dope.

BMW has nothing for me... the 3 series is unappealing. The 4 is the same...the 5 is huge.

Spending the amount of cash on an E90 and then having to spend another $4k on Bearing and Actuators just makes me nervous...and makes me feel like I'm forcing something and there are better options.


Am I over-thinking this?

I don't think you are overthinking this, but it's your need for a powerful, fun car with specific characteristics and specific price range that is getting you. I'm going to get flamed for this but I think my 6mt e90 M is a TERRIBLE daily driver. Its just too expensive to dd it if you do not DIY. It's running/Maintainence costs are quite huge and god forbid if anything goes wrong with the car which my aftermarket warranty does not cover. There was about 1 month where my dd had broken down and I was dailying the m3 and I did not like it. I felt like I was at the gas station every 2 days. I also feel too flashy driving it everyday.
My family hates sitting in the back of the m3. That is my; mom, sister, aunts and uncles dislike it, find it uncomfortable and cramped and prefer to ride in my 08 a4. On trips (which I bought it for) my step son as well as others dislike the firm - ish suspension and get queezy in the back.
Everybody is right, it's totally a wolf in sheep's clothing. Docile and sedate one moment, but get the revs up there and out comes the beast. However, just because BMW decided to throw a sedan body and seats over a sports car chassis and engine does not mean it can be comfortable for passengers, so really it's like a beast all the time and us enthusiast drivers tend not to feel how awesomely uncomfortable this car really is. I say it's awesome because I have a baby on the way and the sensible thing to do would be to sell the e90M and get an suv, but I just can't!! I don't want to sell my m3, but if it was my only car, I would.
That Chevy SS is supposed to be quite e39 m5 - like, since it has roots back to the Holden Monero which was a v8 supersedan designed to tangle with the E39 m5. I will admit the SS looks like big Malibu but a 6mt with that vehicle sounds really desirable to me and it falls close to your price range and would be way newer and more comfy the an e90M.

My 2008 a4 is an excellent dd this far. It gets decent gas mileage, has good power, has a more compliant suspension, auto steptronic 6spd tranny, and it's interior is ergonomically perfect. Audi NAILS their interior ergonomics. I just did rear brakes and rotors and it was less than half that what it would be for the m3!! So for me, huge maintenance costs, not so comfy rear seat, taught suspension, TERRIBLE gas mileage (which comes with high revving, big power) and RWD do not make for a good DD, but they make for an excellent weekend car! Anyway good luck with whatever you decide and yeah,, stay away from those older n54 engines. If you want to know why, just hop on the non M e90 post section and read some technical threads and user feedback. I'm not sure if some of them on that forum are in denial about their cars but I see so many "help, something isn't working right!" But then they are modding left and right at the same team as commenting on the awesome reliability of the car and that remarkable n54, but what yo do with all these problems and their car won't start. It's almost comical..check it out
Any opinion on 08 RS4? Genuinely interested in those.
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      05-23-2018, 05:56 PM   #83
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If cost is a concern, why not look into a pristine E39 M5? "Effectively" the same concept as the E90 M3 and roughly half the cost. Upgrade some of the tech and drive the balls off it.

E90 is still the better choice
I will say that if I drove mine absolutely every day as the only choice I would have opted for the DCT with a bit more tech. Those are just nanny complaints, but I simply cannot find a better solution to this "problem." Took some friends around this past weekend (car loaded to the brim with friends and all had as much room as they needed) and essentially this same conversation popped up since my buddy is looking for a fun car for him and his family/every day use. We couldn't come up with a better solution for the cost to fun ratio.
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      05-23-2018, 07:01 PM   #84
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OP if I were you I would probably go F80, and I've owned Audis, E90 M3, M235xi, and now back in an E92 M3. The E9x M3 is an incredible drivers car and it responds almost instantly to inputs. To me that does not really make it a very good family car. I think the newer, larger, and far more torquey F80 would be much more enjoyable for family life and provide a small degree more peace of mind for the reliability, especially if you get some warranty time.

I've driven F8x and E9x on track but no F8x on road so I wonder about ride comfort but I think it makes more sense if you frequently have passengers and wouldn't be driving "on boil" all the time. You really have to wring out all aspects of the E9x on a regular basis to appreciate what it is. Most passengers don't appreciate that... at all. You also get the updated creature comforts of the F80 and again don't forget about that daily driving torque.

I may have missed it above but have you had the opportunity to really drive either of these cars? Like REALLY drive them?
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      05-23-2018, 09:47 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDPLV View Post
Any opinion on 08 RS4? Genuinely interested in those.
Oversteering, high revving v8, awd beast. If only they had made them past '08. Not sure how reliable they are though.
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