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      04-11-2014, 02:50 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
My point was their plan to skim, not how private sector pay compares to public sector. But since you asked:

Calipari - head coach of Univ of Ky Basketball team - $5.5million/yr + bonuses


These are beneficiaries of the student loan program, paid for by student debt.
This is silly beyond belief. Calling the head coach of the Kentucky basketball team a Federal employee? Claiming his funding comes from administrative fees for the student loan program?

But it's not just that claiming anyone who works for a university, even the basketball coach, is funded by administrative fees from the student loan program, is utterly crazy. In this case it's wrong even beyond that nonsense. It's actually pretty funny.

_None_ of his salary comes from students.

"The University of Kentucky Athletic Association (UKAA) Board of Directors today approved an operating budget of $72.65 million for fiscal year 2009-10.

The UKAA, which is 100 percent self-supporting and receives no state or university funds..."

The employees who are funded by the administrative fees for the Federal student loan program work in the Federal Student Aid office of the Department of Education. But I suppose the far right pundits you use as your sources have to blow smoke on this one. The fact is that the Federal student loan program is a better deal for students, and for the country. It's more efficient, its employees make far less than the private sector bankers. The head of that 100+ billion dollar office probably makes about $150,000. How many heads of 100+ billion dollar banks do you think make less than ten times that? Try none. Quite likely they all make more like 100 times that.

http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/fsa/index.html
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      04-11-2014, 08:32 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
I guess I misread that about the government taking over the student loan program - too much "faux news" again (I just love that!):

http://content.time.com/time/politic...924128,00.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/us...s/26loans.html

http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/SB10001...21052?mobile=y
You did, that and lack of basic comprehension pertaining to the subject (not saying you can't comprehend anything though).

To be fair, as with most things political, practically everything is grossly misleading anyway that you'd hear from both a Republican or a Democrat.

Student loans are NOT nationalized. What the administration did was cut out the middle man and began offering loans directly to students as a way to save costs. The convenient fact left out when people cry it's "nationalism", is that the government subsidized private banks who lent out student loans anyway so it was always a partial government program.

Of course, since politics can be mindbogglingly ridiculous, people took a simple concept, eliminating subsidies to private banks in an effort to save money (you know, money we pay them every year in taxes), and blew it up to something that made no logical sense for their own political gain. This magically became known as "nationalizing" student loans. You just happened to fall for it.

If you stopped reading highly biased articles where the author is blatantly putting a specific slant on it and instead just read on how the program itself works with no added $0.02 from anyone else, you can make a more informed and educated opinion on the program. I'm sure I could just as easily dig up an article from huffpo or something singing Obama's praises in offering student loans to combat the evil banks who are bankrupting and praying on innocent children blah blah blah fight the 1% or something ridiculous like that.

I guess that simply researching what a particular program or legislation is supposed to do without having someone tell you how to feel about it takes a little more time, effort, and brain power than just blindly reciting talking points you hear on television.
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      04-11-2014, 04:13 PM   #113
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There's a bit of bias in your response as well, tbh. The Feds took the program back from the banks, created a new agency to administer it, and (depending on which analysis you read), plowed 70% of the proceeds back into the loan program, and funding Pell Grants and minority college grants (which don't benefit the students that have the loans). The other 30% goes to fund healthcare, and reduce the debt.
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      04-11-2014, 07:35 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by fecurtis View Post
If you stopped reading highly biased articles where the author is blatantly putting a specific slant on it and instead just read on how the program itself works with no added $0.02 from anyone else, you can make a more informed and educated opinion on the program.
Word. But that would ruin the arguments of the far right guys he listens to. For example....

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
and (depending on which analysis you read), plowed 70% of the proceeds back into the loan program, and funding Pell Grants and minority college grants (which don't benefit the students that have the loans). The other 30% goes to fund healthcare, and reduce the debt.
You make his case brilliantly. We all know whose analyses you listen to. They're trying to make it sound like the government is ripping off students to fund grants and health care, rather than simply funding their actual loan. You can rig up an analysis that says that only because the government basically has one pot of money. But it's every bit as absurd as saying everyone who works in higher education, including the basketball coach, is funded by the proceeds of student loans.

Here's the reality, which is so far from a ripoff it's silly.

"Proceeds" are fees + interest. They are not lavish.

The fees for a student loan are absurdly low, by comparison to any other loan.

"Here are the loan fees for federal student loans first disbursed on or after Dec. 1, 2013:

1.072% for Direct Subsidized Loans and Direct Unsubsidized Loans
4.288% for Direct PLUS Loans for parents and graduate and professional students

Loans first disbursed prior to Dec. 1, 2013, have different loan fees.

There are no loan fees for Perkins Loans."

So, 1% for undergraduates and 4.3% for graduate students.

Here are the interest rates they pay.

"Direct Subsidized Loans (Undergraduate Students)
Fixed at 3.86%

Direct Unsubsidized Loans (Undergraduate Students)
Fixed at 3.86%

Direct Unsubsidized Loans (Graduate or Professional Students)
Fixed at 5.41%

Direct PLUS Loans (Parents and Graduate or Professional Students)
Fixed at 6.41%

Perkins Loans (Undergraduate and Graduate or Professional Students)
Fixed at 5%"

Want to try to get an unsecured loan at a bank for that kind of interest? By the way, those are set by Congress, not by the executive branch.

Took me all of 5 minutes to find the definitive numbers, although I knew them enough to know your argument was ridiculous.

http://studentaid.ed.gov/types/loans/interest-rates

Note especially that the banks could still make student loans. They don't because they don't want to compete with those fees and rates. So much for the government ripping off students to fund grants and health care.

The Federal Student Loan program is one of the very best government programs. Good for students, and good for all of us. Relatively cheap for students. More efficient and lower costs than private loans. Only someone whose philosophy simply won't allow for the possibility that a government program could be a good one would disagree. Or the big banks, who want the sweet deal they had back. Student loans _were_ funding them and their bloated salaries.

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      04-11-2014, 07:54 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy View Post
The Federal Student Loan program is one of the very best government programs. Good for students, and good for all of us. More efficient and lower costs than private loans. Only someone whose philosophy simply won't allow for the possibility that a government program could be a good one would disagree. Or the big banks, who want the sweet deal they had back. Student loans _were_ funding them and their bloated salaries.
So is it acceptable to take the repayment from these loans and use 30% for non-student purposes? Is it okay to take money repaid from student loans, and fund Pell grants and minority college grants?

The quote above is another conclusion - that the "Federal Student Loan program is one of the very best" - that's your opinion (which you are entitled to, and I won't even call it "ridiculous" or "absurd").
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      04-11-2014, 08:20 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy View Post
This is silly beyond belief. Calling the head coach of the Kentucky basketball team a Federal employee? Claiming his funding comes from administrative fees for the student loan program?

But it's not just that claiming anyone who works for a university, even the basketball coach, is funded by administrative fees from the student loan program, is utterly crazy. In this case it's wrong even beyond that nonsense. It's actually pretty funny.

_None_ of his salary comes from students.

"The University of Kentucky Athletic Association (UKAA) Board of Directors today approved an operating budget of $72.65 million for fiscal year 2009-10.

The UKAA, which is 100 percent self-supporting and receives no state or university funds..."

The employees who are funded by the administrative fees for the Federal student loan program work in the Federal Student Aid office of the Department of Education. But I suppose the far right pundits you use as your sources have to blow smoke on this one. The fact is that the Federal student loan program is a better deal for students, and for the country. It's more efficient, its employees make far less than the private sector bankers. The head of that 100+ billion dollar office probably makes about $150,000. How many heads of 100+ billion dollar banks do you think make less than ten times that? Try none. Quite likely they all make more like 100 times that.

http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/fsa/index.html
They are clearly profiting from their relationship with the University - they are trading on the name recognition of the University. If the University took the money from their Basketball program and funneled it back into the school (including the $5.5M/yr salary of the coach), it would correspondingly drop the cost of education to the students. Similarly, if the Univ of CA system reduced their "investments", it would drop the cost of education for the students. If the professors had to give their monies from publishing to the University that employs them (like in most of the private sector), it would drop the cost of education to the students.

A few Wikipedia notes about the Univ of CA system:

"Besides substantial six-figure incomes, the UC President and all UC chancellors enjoy controversial perks such as free housing in the form of university-maintained mansions. In 1962, Anson Blake's will donated his 10-acre estate (Blake Garden) and mansion (Blake House) in Kensington to the University of California's Department of Landscape Architecture. In 1968, the Regents decided to make Blake House the official residence of the UC President. As of 2005, it cost around $300,000 per year to maintain Blake Garden and Blake House; the latter, built in 1926, is a 13,239-square-foot mansion with a view of San Francisco Bay....“According to data released today, the University of California Regents hold $234 million in 15 of the largest coal mining and coal burning corporations...”

And this is not uncommon in publicly-funded institutions across the country.
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      04-11-2014, 11:57 PM   #117
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Exclamation

It's deja vu all over again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fecurtis View Post
If you stopped reading highly biased articles where the author is blatantly putting a specific slant on it and instead just read on how the program itself works with no added $0.02 from anyone else, you can make a more informed and educated opinion on the program.
Word. But that would ruin the arguments of the far right guys he listens to. For example....

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
So is it acceptable to take the repayment from these loans and use 30% for non-student purposes?
This is like asking someone why they haven't stopped beating their wife. It's an old joke. The point is if they never beat her, they can't stop. The analogy here is that your question assumes they do that, but they don't. It's a flat out lie. Not yours, but that of the far right pundits you read.

Yes, the loans get repaid. Yes, it all goes into the big pot that is the Federal budget. Yes the government spends the money on something. But you could as well ask is it right that the government takes 50% of the money, and spends it on the military? That statement makes every bit as much sense.

We know it isn't spent on basketball coaches.

There is NO (yes I'm shouting) provision of law that says some percentage of the money repaid by students goes to grants. Or healthcare. Or the military. Or anything else. None. Nada. Zip. Zilch.

You've been conned by the far right people you listen to. To say the money repaid by students is earmarked for anything is a lie and a deceit.

Prove me wrong. You can't.

By the way, a warning. This ridiculous puffed up aggression is a trap. I know exactly where this utter nonsense about 30% of student loan repayments going somewhere else comes from. You would to, if you did a little research. Well, maybe more than a little.

Last edited by 128Convertibleguy; 04-12-2014 at 12:47 AM.
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      04-12-2014, 12:52 AM   #118
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Oh - ok.
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      04-12-2014, 10:18 PM   #119
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Don't sweat it, bbbbmw. You are dealing with those who get their news from the far left lunatic fringe ideologues. You know, the main stream media that, instead of reporting the facts they instead simply, blindly and ignorantly report whatever is needed to support our current abysmal administration. You know, those stations that year after year after year fall at the bottom of list as the least watched media outlets in the nation - fortunately, as it should be. You will never convince them to recognize the facts and use common sense. It is the very reason we are dealing with this administration for a second unbearable term. Our nation is so messed up right now and their is ZERO accountability for it. Questionning the current administration simply gets you branded as a racist.
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      04-12-2014, 11:13 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Andy H. View Post
You will never convince them to recognize the facts
I understand we have political differences, but when it comes to facts, bbbbmw has demonstrably and consistently come up short.

Compared to similar Western democracies, the US has lower taxes than most. Neither basketball coaches nor grants nor healthcare are directly funded from the repayment of student loans. Mr. Bundy isn't a poor guy who is being abused by the government, he's a guy who doesn't pay his lawful bills, has flouted the law, gone to court, and lost. Then, rather than accepting the consequences, has threatened law enforcement officials simply doing their job with violence. Etc.

Those things are not inventions of any media source, they are facts.

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      04-13-2014, 11:56 AM   #121
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if the left only gets news from liberal mainstream media and if the right only gets news from faux news, then no one is correct so everyone just stfu
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      04-13-2014, 04:29 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by i dunno View Post
if the left only gets news from liberal mainstream media and if the right only gets news from faux news, then no one is correct so everyone just stfu
I don't get my news only from media sources. I like to be an informed American citizen, and I carefully research facts on important issues. The guys who get their beliefs only from a cursory and far too credulous reading of far right pundits, including faux news, have repeatedly posted in this thread oft repeated right wing myths, like the idea we're a high tax country. The stuff I posted in #120 are demonstrable facts, not opinions from any media.

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      04-13-2014, 06:07 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy View Post
I don't get my news only from media sources. I like to be an informed American citizen, and I carefully research facts on important issues. The guys who get their beliefs only from a cursory and far too credulous reading of far right pundits, including faux news, have repeatedly posted in this thread oft repeated right wing myths, like the idea we're a high tax country. The stuff I posted in #120 are demonstrable facts, not opinions from any media.
It is clear you are a liberal progressive far left wing nut.

BTW, we pay the highest taxes of any developed country. 17.5 trillion in debt with a 626 billion dollar budget deficit and the government is taking in more tax revenue under the Obama admin than it has ever in the history of our country. I bet you believe Obama care is helping the most and costing everyone less too.

Ask Obama, the left, NY Times, CNN, MSNBC and the rest of the main stream media and everything is peaches and cream. Disgusting. What a joke. Alas, the pendulum swings both ways. We are going to see some big changes in the fall during the mid-term elections. Thank God. Oh yeah, you are probably an atheist.
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      04-13-2014, 06:56 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Andy H. View Post
It is clear your are a liberal progressive far left wing nut.

BTW, we pay the highest taxes of any developed country. 17.5 trillion in debt with a 626 billion dollar budget deficit and the government is taking in more tax revenue under the Obama admin than it has ever in the history of our country. I bet you believe Obama care is helping the most and costing everyone less too.

Ask Obama, the left, NY Times, CNN, MSNBC and the rest of the main stream media and everything is peaches and cream. Disgusting. What a joke. Alas, the pendulum swings both ways. We are going to see some big changes in the fall during the mid-term elections. Thank God. Oh yeah, you are probably an atheist.
so you accuse him of being a liberal progressive far left wing nut, and youre a conservative far right wing nut. how is anyone suppose to believe either of you?
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      04-13-2014, 07:16 PM   #125
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and youre a conservative far right wing nut.
Don't know how you came to that conclusion. Where's your support for that comment?
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      04-13-2014, 07:37 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Andy H. View Post
Don't know how you came to that conclusion. Where's your support for that comment?
because thats what hes accusing you of. its like once anyone labels someone as a right or left wing nut, all their points are rendered completely invalid. how is healthy discussion suppose to take place when both sides dont consider the other person's arguments?
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      04-13-2014, 07:48 PM   #127
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BTW, we pay the highest taxes of any developed country.
Only because we have the biggest economy. Which is why the far right wing pundits like to quote only the absolute number. Yeah, our taxes are bigger than Denmark's if you do it that way. Utterly meaningless.

Relative to the size of the economy of a country, we're on the low end.

Easy enough to research that fact. Here's one source, there are many others, and they're all very clear. This is not a close call.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/GC.TAX.TOTL.GD.ZS?

Click on 2012 until the percentages (taxes as a percent of GDP) start low and go up. Then scroll down to the US. Not too fast, you're not going far.

We're at 10.2% of GDP. Keep going down until you hit Denmark. That will be a while. 34.1%. Now I ask you. Does it make any sense at all to use the absolute number instead of the percentages, and say our taxes are higher than Denmark's? Does that statement have any intellectual content?

The large majority of comparable developed countries have taxes that are well above 10.2%, as a percentage of GDP. So how are our taxes the highest of any developed country?

BTW, note that I have never attacked you (or anyone else) personally. Never called you a name.

I have criticized where you get your information, and the truth of that information. I stand by that, this post is an excellent demonstration of why.

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      04-13-2014, 08:41 PM   #128
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Twist it however you want. It doesn't change the state of our nation. It has, in no uncertain terms, made it worse. Why don't you just go ahead and flat out admit that you believe Government can do better for you than you can do for yourself. And, you know damn well Government, during this admin, has made it worse for more than otherwise.
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      04-13-2014, 10:02 PM   #129
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Why don't you just go ahead and flat out admit that you believe Government can do better for you than you can do for yourself. And, you know damn well Government, during this admin, has made it worse for more than otherwise.
For the first point, depends on the time of my life. My parents wouldn't have had a prayer of sending me to the undergraduate and graduate schools I attended. I worked some myself, although that contribution was the smallest. My schooling was paid for mostly (not entirely, maybe 60%) by (competitive) scholarships and research grants you could trace back to the government. This country's higher education system used to blow the rest of the world out of the water, largely because of government. Today, not so much.

But that government investment in me has been paid back handsomely, just in the increased taxes I have paid as a result.

As far for damage to the economy, nothing remotely compares to the cost of Bush's unnecessary wars, and his shameful failure to control Wall Street and the banks, who pissed away vast sums of our money. I would be remiss if I didn't note the even higher cost to many brave American soldiers, and their families. Obama's contributions to the deficit pale in comparison. They've been more than compensated for by the increase in total value of the stock market during his administration. Considering everything, he's been just as good for the US economy as Bush was bad for it. Which is why we're close to recovering the losses, and the real reason he beat Romney.

You can run the numbers yourself, if you care to. The cost of the wars. What we paid out to save Wall Street and the banks. The cost of Obama's stimulus. The change in value of the stock market over the last five years.

Once again, it's not even close.

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      04-13-2014, 10:34 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Andy H. View Post
Twist it however you want.
That's the thing. The fact that our taxes, as a proportion of the economy, are substantially lower than the great majority of developed countries is the untwisted version. It's the only objective way to look at it.

Saying our total taxes are the highest (because our economy is the largest) is what is twisted. A political spin so great the right wing pundits who have repeatedly said it should have screwed themselves right into the ground, and down to China. <grin>

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      04-14-2014, 01:04 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy H. View Post
Twist it however you want. It doesn't change the state of our nation. It has, in no uncertain terms, made it worse. Why don't you just go ahead and flat out admit that you believe Government can do better for you than you can do for yourself. And, you know damn well Government, during this admin, has made it worse for more than otherwise.
it would be more constructive if you threw out some empirical figures instead of just saying that hes full of bs.
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      04-14-2014, 01:10 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy View Post
I understand we have political differences, but when it comes to facts, bbbbmw has demonstrably and consistently come up short.

Compared to similar Western democracies, the US has lower taxes than most. Neither basketball coaches nor grants nor healthcare are directly funded from the repayment of student loans. Mr. Bundy isn't a poor guy who is being abused by the government, he's a guy who doesn't pay his lawful bills, has flouted the law, gone to court, and lost. Then, rather than accepting the consequences, has threatened law enforcement officials simply doing their job with violence. Etc.

Those things are not inventions of any media source, they are facts.
Uhhh...I beg to differ - it's widely reported that when the student loan program was **transferred** to the Feds, that the interest rate was doubled (to 6.8%) by the Democrats to fund $8.7B for Obamacare, $3B for minority colleges, $10.3B to pay down the debt, and $36B for Pell Grants. If this additional funding was not in place, the rate would have been 5.3%.

You then stated that the money went back into the general fund, and could not be determined where it went (unsupported), and then jumped to some conclusion about how you can't prove the money went for other purposes. And my facts are wrong?

Further, the basketball program at the University of KY is not part of the Univ of KY? Really? Who paid for the $310M of renovations to Rupp Arena? Here's an article from the HuffPost, reflecting the intertwining of finances: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dave-c..._b_855396.html

Again - you jump to conclusions that fit your narrative. I don't see any difference between your conclusions, and the fingers you point at others - including Faux News (did you make that up? Tell the truth!!).
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