Test drove a 2012 Porsche 911S over the weekend, surprised the M3 held up

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by shift@red

I have some pretty bad roads around here and in my experience with a 997.2 GT3 (this may not be a good example because its suspension is far better than both cars) and a 997.2 Carrera S, youre seem to be exaggerating a bit. I found the 997S to be fine with bumpy roads and I thought it soaked up mid corner bumps better than my M3 when both are in sport mode. I much prefer the tactile scapel like precision of any Porsche's steering over the somewhat numb and muted M3s.

I stand by what I said..this was a back to back drive down some lovely (but bumpy) country roads that my M3 takes without drama while the 997.2 S was literally all over the road until I eased off the throttle, its the price you pay for lively steering and a light front end, you can't have it both ways...the M3s steering is certainly "numb and muted" by comparison but its not without its benefit.
I drove 911s for the best part of 20 years, I love them and felt almost instantly at home in the 997 so its not a case of I have an M3 so I'm going to big up its performance and downplay the Porsches'.
If I had the money I would swop the M3 for a 997 turbo in a heartbeat...I don't think I would swop it for a 997.2s though.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

In addition, the Porsche is just flat more fun.

There is definitely that.

[mdosu]

Originally Posted by stuka

I was quoted 8K by a few dealerships when we were shopping for 355, so we ended up getting the 996 GT2. Something about 8K is a lot of bags and shoes by the mrs...

Shame, because I like the look of the 355 the best over 360, 430, and even the Italia.

and that's why the value of 360 and 355 will continue to drop, until this absurdity ends. Sure I can afford a 355 too, but come on, 8k for 1 service? gtfo, who in their right minds would buy a 355 that's coming up on scheduled service? Yeah, a rich guy might, but if you have so much money to pay for servicing, why not just buy a newer F430 that's years away from servicing?

[Dave07997S]

First off, the 997s steering is just superb. Your hands feel like they are on the tierods themselves. I love my E92 M3 but the low speed steering feel is just not up to snuff vs. the PCar, granted as it comes to speed it gets much better but you just don't get the same feel and connection to the steering as you do in the PCar. Of course on a race track the 997 is going to be faster, but you are going to have to know how to use the rear engine bias to turn the car. If you can learn how to hang out a 997 to get that light front end to turn and then use the rear engine bias to let those huge 295/305 tires dig you out of the corner with the sweet low end/midrange of the engine and you can see how the PCar is going to be faster. I find my E92 M3 looking for traction all the time. I can get the rearend to hangout with ease in the M3. The diffy is superb in the M3 and really keeps things in check, but wheelspin means you are losing time.

That all being said when I read the 997S just demolishes an M3 I think you guys are doing a disservice. I know for me I bought into this and went out and bought a new 07 997.1S and to be honest I was underwhelmed. When I finally learned how to drive the car is when I fell in love with the car, but I never felt it was that much better than my somewhat modded E46 M3. I know Greg and others are going to have a different opinion, that is great, thats what makes these boards a good source of info. There is no right or wrong in this. In some respects I don't even see how the M3 and PCar can even be compared. I literally laugh to myself when someone tries to compare a M3 to a GT3, get real. A decently equipped M3 comes in under $70k, a new GT3 is well over the $110k range if you buy new.

The clincher on why I sold the 997 was when I couldn't afford to have a DD and the PCar. Thats when I decided to switch to the E92 M3 and I'm glad I did.

Dave

[Nine]

Originally Posted by mdosu

and that's why the value of 360 and 355 will continue to drop, until this absurdity ends. Sure I can afford a 355 too, but come on, 8k for 1 service? gtfo, who in their right minds would buy a 355 that's coming up on scheduled service? Yeah, a rich guy might, but if you have so much money to pay for servicing, why not just buy a newer F430 that's years away from servicing?

It's a little crazy, but I'd have to assume that those guys working at Ferrari service are the BEST of the BEST. Please tell me I'm right...

I think it's also an exclusivity thing, could you imagine if everyone owned and maintained a ferarri? Ferrari wouldn't be Ferrari..it would become like porsche.

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

First off, the 997s steering is just superb. Your hands feel like they are on the tierods themselves. I love my E92 M3 but the low speed steering feel is just not up to snuff vs. the PCar, granted as it comes to speed it gets much better but you just don't get the same feel and connection to the steering as you do in the PCar. Of course on a race track the 997 is going to be faster, but you are going to have to know how to use the rear engine bias to turn the car. If you can learn how to hang out a 997 to get that light front end to turn and then use the rear engine bias to let those huge 295/305 tires dig you out of the corner with the sweet low end/midrange of the engine and you can see how the PCar is going to be faster. I find my E92 M3 looking for traction all the time. I can get the rearend to hangout with ease in the M3. The diffy is superb in the M3 and really keeps things in check, but wheelspin means you are losing time.

That all being said when I read the 997S just demolishes an M3 I think you guys are doing a disservice. I know for me I bought into this and went out and bought a new 07 997.1S and to be honest I was underwhelmed. When I finally learned how to drive the car is when I fell in love with the car, but I never felt it was that much better than my somewhat modded E46 M3. I know Greg and others are going to have a different opinion, that is great, thats what makes these boards a good source of info. There is no right or wrong in this. In some respects I don't even see how the M3 and PCar can even be compared. I literally laugh to myself when someone tries to compare a M3 to a GT3, get real. A decently equipped M3 comes in under $70k, a new GT3 is well over the $110k range if you buy new.

The clincher on why I sold the 997 was when I couldn't afford to have a DD and the PCar. Thats when I decided to switch to the E92 M3 and I'm glad I did.

Dave

Good ****ing ****. I love reading rational and real world opinions.

[clar]

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

First off, the 997s steering is just superb. Your hands feel like they are on the tierods themselves. I love my E92 M3 but the low speed steering feel is just not up to snuff vs. the PCar, granted as it comes to speed it gets much better but you just don't get the same feel and connection to the steering as you do in the PCar. Of course on a race track the 997 is going to be faster, but you are going to have to know how to use the rear engine bias to turn the car. If you can learn how to hang out a 997 to get that light front end to turn and then use the rear engine bias to let those huge 295/305 tires dig you out of the corner with the sweet low end/midrange of the engine and you can see how the PCar is going to be faster. I find my E92 M3 looking for traction all the time. I can get the rearend to hangout with ease in the M3. The diffy is superb in the M3 and really keeps things in check, but wheelspin means you are losing time.

That all being said when I read the 997S just demolishes an M3 I think you guys are doing a disservice. I know for me I bought into this and went out and bought a new 07 997.1S and to be honest I was underwhelmed. When I finally learned how to drive the car is when I fell in love with the car, but I never felt it was that much better than my somewhat modded E46 M3. I know Greg and others are going to have a different opinion, that is great, thats what makes these boards a good source of info. There is no right or wrong in this. In some respects I don't even see how the M3 and PCar can even be compared. I literally laugh to myself when someone tries to compare a M3 to a GT3, get real. A decently equipped M3 comes in under $70k, a new GT3 is well over the $110k range if you buy new.

The clincher on why I sold the 997 was when I couldn't afford to have a DD and the PCar. Thats when I decided to switch to the E92 M3 and I'm glad I did.

Dave

A very balanced post!! I always feel that people who trumpet how superior a P car is relative to an M3 fail to realize that the fact that the 2 cars are being uttered in the same sentence is proof that M3 is the more capable car. It's pretty idiotic to compare them when P cars are essentially one trick ponies. That one trick, they do damn well. M3s are all rounded cars that while not besting P cars, they are putting up a pretty good fight in areas where P cars do well. I love the steering feel of 911s and i doubt M3 steering will ever feel that way. However, i also doubt P cars will carry 4 in comfort and a decent luggage space for all and yet be exciting to drive.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

I find my E92 M3 looking for traction all the time. I can get the rearend to hangout with ease in the M3. The diffy is superb in the M3 and really keeps things in check, but wheelspin means you are losing time.

I'm pretty much there with the essence of the rest of your post but with reference to the M3s relatively poor traction:
You really ought to try out the new Michelin Pilot Super Sport tyres...they are a significant step up in traction and grip over the PS2s.
I put them on the rear of my M3 (PS2s still in the front) a month or so ago and the improvement in traction is really impressive...power oversteer is way harder to provoke, I'm finding myself incrementally pushing the rear of the car harder and harder to see where the grip ends.
Eg: near me is a right turn out of a junction, a short straight and then a sharp left bend with an uneven surface....so normally its pull out of the junction, full throttle in first to the red line, shift to second then turn in and ease off the throttle to keep the rear mostly in line then back on full throttle...with the PSSs you can take the same bend flat in second.

[nick3753]

Originally Posted by shift@red

At the same time, the only 911s anyone is comparing them to are the entry level cars. In no way can anything BMW makes compete when you take a look at GTx Porsches. The M3 GTS is an utter failure in that it competes with what Porsche was bulding 5 years ago. Shows you just how much more superior Porsche is in that area.
And we all know Porsche can make an all around car with a big trunk and seats 4...the Panamera (whether you personally like it or not), is the size of a 7 series, but puts one to shame when it comes to luxury, its faster than an m5 in a straight, and will beat an M3 on any track. And yes, its one of, if not the most exciting sedan to drive.
If Porsche wanted to come out with a GT car and price it at 70-80, maybe thew reincarnation of the 928, the M3 wouldnt stand a chance.

This is a quote about the Panamera 4S (400 hp), and the turbo/turbo S are even better.

"With the exception of the Panamera's awesome skid pad number, which is simply light-years ahead of anything else on the planet with four doors, only the last BMW M5 we tested can match or come close to the Porsche's test numbers. This might give the impression that an M5 could keep up with the Panamera 4S on a mountain road.

Well, it can't. And neither can any other four-door you can think of, including anything else with AMG or M on its deck lid."

Without a reference your quote is meaningless and utterly useless, even if accurate.

[Erhan]

Originally Posted by shift@red

The M3 GTS is an utter failure in that it competes with what Porsche was bulding 5+ years ago. Shows you just how much more superior Porsche is in that area.

I think the problem of M3 GTS is that it is based on the M3, which is based on the 3 series: big. heavy.

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Well, according to the envious Porsche haters, the 911 is based on a VW bug, and is set up in the most inherently wrong way to build a car, yet its still one of, if not the best car in the world at any given time.

Greg, my plate for my 9997S was going to be 1BADBUG...Meant it in a cool way..

There is no doubt when you compare what BMW and Porsche have to offer as far as track toys and such there is no doubt Porsche rules. I think back and realize my 997S would be out of its lease right now and my buyout was just $40k..I'm thinking I maybe should have kept it and bought a Fusion to putz around town.

Dave

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

I'm pretty much there with the essence of the rest of your post but with reference to the M3s relatively poor traction:
You really ought to try out the new Michelin Pilot Super Sport tyres...they are a significant step up in traction and grip over the PS2s.
I put them on the rear of my M3 (PS2s still in the front) a month or so ago and the improvement in traction is really impressive...power oversteer is way harder to provoke, I'm finding myself incrementally pushing the rear of the car harder and harder to see where the grip ends.
Eg: near me is a right turn out of a junction, a short straight and then a sharp left bend with an uneven surface....so normally its pull out of the junction, full throttle in first to the red line, shift to second then turn in and ease off the throttle to keep the rear mostly in line then back on full throttle...with the PSSs you can take the same bend flat in second.

Going with 19X10 front and 19X11 rear, tires will be 275/30/19 front and 295/30/19 rear Mich PSS's. Can't wait..

Dave

[graider]

i like the OP and his honesty. +1 thread.

[graider]

Originally Posted by shift@red

At the same time, the only 911s anyone is comparing them to are the entry level cars. In no way can anything BMW makes compete when you take a look at GTx Porsches. The M3 GTS is an utter failure in that it competes with what Porsche was bulding 5+ years ago. Shows you just how much more superior Porsche is in that area.
And we all know Porsche can make an all around car with a big trunk and seats 4...the Panamera (whether you personally like it or not), is the size of a 7 series, but puts one to shame when it comes to luxury, its faster than an m5 in a straight, and will beat an M3 on any track. And yes, its one of, if not the most exciting sedan to drive.
If Porsche wanted to come out with a GT car and price it at 70-80, maybe thew reincarnation of the 928, the M3 wouldnt stand a chance.

This is a quote about the Panamera 4S (400 hp), and the turbo/turbo S are even better.

"With the exception of the Panamera's awesome skid pad number, which is simply light-years ahead of anything else on the planet with four doors, only the last BMW M5 we tested can match or come close to the Porsche's test numbers. This might give the impression that an M5 could keep up with the Panamera 4S on a mountain road.

Well, it can't. And neither can any other four-door you can think of, including anything else with AMG or M on its deck lid."

the panamera is not same size as a 7 series. more likely closer in size to the new m5.

[bholloway]

The bottom line is that Porsches are better cars than BMWs. If you pit a carrera S vs an M3 the carrera S is better in everything that has to do with performance whether it be speed, acceleration, handling, or driver feel. It is a much harder car to drive properly so for driving novices like the OP I can see why they wouldn't feel as comfortable. As some people like to say Porsches are a poor mans ferrari. The M3 is a poor mans Porsche.

I have nothing wrong with the people that are saying that they simply prefer their M3 over porsches, but I do take issue with the people who try and prove that their M3 is better than a porsche. They simply aren't... end of story.

[-=Hot|Ice=-]

Originally Posted by bholloway

The bottom line is that Porsches are better cars than BMWs. If you pit a carrera S vs an M3 the carrera S is better in everything that has to do with performance whether it be speed, acceleration, handling, or driver feel. It is a much harder car to drive properly so for driving novices like the OP I can see why they wouldn't feel as comfortable. As some people like to say Porsches are a poor mans ferrari. The M3 is a poor mans Porsche.

I have nothing wrong with the people that are saying that they simply prefer their M3 over porsches, but I do take issue with the people who try and prove that their M3 is better than a porsche. They simply aren't... end of story.

You know that, and I know that, but some people don't and refuse to accept that fact. M3post has some members who are real automotive enthusiasts and understand that Porsche is at another level when it comes to performance and driving technology. Tell that to e90post and you'll get flamed by a bunch of 14 year old's who have a 335i but don't have a license.

[clar]

Originally Posted by bholloway

The bottom line is that Porsches are better cars than BMWs. If you pit a carrera S vs an M3 the carrera S is better in everything that has to do with performance whether it be speed, acceleration, handling, or driver feel. It is a much harder car to drive properly so for driving novices like the OP I can see why they wouldn't feel as comfortable. As some people like to say Porsches are a poor mans ferrari. The M3 is a poor mans Porsche.

I have nothing wrong with the people that are saying that they simply prefer their M3 over porsches, but I do take issue with the people who try and prove that their M3 is better than a porsche. They simply aren't... end of story.

That very much depends on the definition of "better." If better means absolute track driving or out and out handling, then Porsche takes the cake. If better means day to day usable, practical, all rounded... then the verdict is different.

[clar]

After i change my wife's car to an X3, i would be looking at something smaller and more exciting. Wouldn't be needing those 2 rear seats anymore. If only Porsche makes slightly nicer looking cars. I will never buy a car for its looks, but i would "not buy" a car for its looks. Hope the new 991 would look a bit better. Caymans and Boxsters while driving exceptionally well, look just too feminine for my liking. It's hard to find better driving cars at the price range of non GT Porsches...

[bholloway]

Originally Posted by clar

That very much depends on the definition of "better." If better means absolute track driving or out and out handling, then Porsche takes the cake. If better means day to day usable, practical, all rounded... then the verdict is different.

I think it really depends on your needs. When I say better I mean better as in a better driving experience in general whether in be braking, accelerating, steering response, connectedness with the road etc. Sure the BMW is more practical than a Porsche and I have no problem admitting that. The people I take issue with are the ones who constantly have to convince themselves that their M3 is the best car ever because its faster than everything else and more practical than everything else which simply isn't true.

To sum it up the BMW is a jack of all trades and a master of none. It's not a true all out performance car because in reality it's not that fast and really isn't much of a drivers cars compared to a Porsche. It is still a great performing car for the price, but it shouldn't be considered an elite performance car like Porsches are. The M3 isn't too great of a commuter either because of its small gas tank and poor gas mileage, and it isn't that big either. It's definitely bigger and more fuel efficient then a Ferrari or Lamborghini would be and it can hold 4-5 people, but if you're main focus is practicality then you wouldn't get an M3.

The M3 is a great car and fills a niche for buyers who need something a little more practical, but still want to have some fun from time to time. It's probably the best car to fulfill those needs and I think that's exactly where its place should be.

[devo]

Geeezus H.

[signes]

Originally Posted by bholloway

I think it really depends on your needs. When I say better I mean better as in a better driving experience in general whether in be braking, accelerating, steering response, connectedness with the road etc. Sure the BMW is more practical than a Porsche and I have no problem admitting that. The people I take issue with are the ones who constantly have to convince themselves that their M3 is the best car ever because its faster than everything else and more practical than everything else which simply isn't true.

To sum it up the BMW is a jack of all trades and a master of none. It's not a true all out performance car because in reality it's not that fast and really isn't much of a drivers cars compared to a Porsche. It is still a great performing car for the price, but it shouldn't be considered an elite performance car like Porsches are. The M3 isn't too great of a commuter either because of its small gas tank and poor gas mileage, and it isn't that big either. It's definitely bigger and more fuel efficient then a Ferrari or Lamborghini would be and it can hold 4-5 people, but if you're main focus is practicality then you wouldn't get an M3.

The M3 is a great car and fills a niche for buyers who need something a little more practical, but still want to have some fun from time to time. It's probably the best car to fulfill those needs and I think that's exactly where its place should be.

After lurking in this thread I have to jump in at this. Some of these comments (in bold) are just complete BS. I gather based on your comments you are in love with Porsche, but you are doing the exact same thing you criticize M3 fans for blindly loving one brand/make. I've owned a 911 and loved it, great drivers car and truly a "sports" car where it takes effort and skill to get the most out of it. I appreciate that and agree that it is another rung up the performance ladder, mostly because the 911 is a car more focused on actually being a sports car (its smaller, lighter, etc.)

But stop with the other nonsense about the M3.

1. Its not that fast: It actually is pretty damn fast and isn't much slower than a 997, and in fact it is about equal in straight line speed/top speed. The 911 wins in the corners because of its lower weight and smaller size. Shock.
   
2. Really isn't much of a drivers car: Seriously? This is one of the best drivers cars out there and certainly the best in its price category. It is easier to drive faster but that doesn't mean it is a "drivers car"
   
3. It shouldn't be considered an elite performance car like Porsches are: Please stop with the P-car snobbery. Every (almost every) Porsche is a mass produced car, that rules out "elite" in my book. So would a Ferrari guy then say that Porsches aren't elite performance cars? Is the base Boxster an "elite" performance car. GMAFB. They're all great cars in my book. No need for the elitist comments.
   
4. M3 isn't too great of a commuter either because of its small gas tank and poor gas mileage, and it isn't that big either: This is a great commuter car for me. I drive it everyday, sun, rain, snow, anything. I can take my wife and two kids up the mountains in the snow and hit the slopes without any worries. I take it shopping and pile it full, I take it to work 30 miles each way, I take it over 10,000 foot passes in a blizzard, ... I take it almost anywhere except offroad and it does great. It has the interior room of the E39 which is as much as most people need short of a full SUV. And I get about 19mpg average (most of my commute is highway.) I fill up about once a week. The horror...

So enough of the Porsche slobbering. They are great cars, any enthusiast appreciates them for what they are - *fantastic* sports cars (and pretty good SUVs and sedans if you want a Cayenne or Panamera.) But speaking of the 911, it is *significantly* more expensive than an M3 which isn't too far off in terms of performance and the M3 can do a lot more. That is pretty impressive in my book and why the M3 is probably the best all 'rounder out there.

[AngelinIsRich08]

Only thing keeping me buying a Porsche car is its front looks. I hate its headlights and think it looks too much like a VW bug. And Porsche Cayennes look like VW Touregs. Seriously, it's hard to differentiate between the two at times.

[FStop7]

ITT fanboy wars