Camaro ZL1 runs the ring in 7:41.27

[F82_SID]

Originally Posted by Moo

Yea, even the mighty M3 GTS is slower around the ring

By 7 seconds!

[erio]

More info from insideline:

http://blogs.insideline.com/straight...gring-run.html

[gthal]

Originally Posted by shift@red

While the time generally speaking is impressive, given the fact that the Ring is all about power to weight over everything else, seeing as this car has almost 600 hp it really isnt very impressive.

At a weight of 3750 with 580 hp, thats a P/W of 6.46.

Just for reference, and you know whats coming, the new 911 with an expected weight of 3200 and 400 hp (P/W of 8) is still faster (7:40).


And for those who asked if the M3 with be around this time, dont hold your breath. Next M3 will likely be around what the GTS is, which also isnt a very impressive time.

I think someone is a little upset that Chev makes a Camaro that's similar to Porsche on the ring That is blasphemy!!!

However it is justified or dismissed, it is impressive... period.

[LarThaL]

A little lesson in automotive performance history:

In the 1950's through 1970's, American cars dominated over the Japanese and Europeans in terms of performance. Then came the 1980's with European cars starting to take the lead. Japan was mostly about economy cars. American performance was dead. In the 1990's the came the Japanese supercars...Nissan 300ZX, Mazda RX-7, Mitsubishi 3000GT, Toyota Supra. Then, from 2000 onwards, the Europeans were on a never-ending power binge like nobody else. Sure there was the Vette and Viper, but overall, the Europeans dominated. Now America is back in the game. The real kicker, however, is that for years, in order to get premium performance, you had to pay premium Euro prices. Now you can get American speed much more cheaply, which has always been what muscle cars are about.

It is all good for the counsumer. If the Europeans want to keep their edge, they will have to offer more bang for the buck than they currently do.

[erio]

Originally Posted by VVG

A little lesson in automotive performance history:

In the 1950's through 1970's, American cars dominated over the Japanese and Europeans in terms of performance. The came the 1980's with European cars starting to take the lead. Japan was mostly about economy cars. American performance was dead. In the 1990's the came the Japanese supercars...Nissan 300ZX, Mazda RX-7, Mitsubishi 3000GT, Toyota Supra. Then, from 2000 onwards, the Europeans were on a never-ending power binge like nobody else. Sure there was the Vette and Viper, but overall, the Europeans dominated. Now America is back in the game. The real kicker, however, is that for years, in order to get premium performance, you had to pay premium Euro prices. Now you can get American speed much more cheaply, which has always been what muscle cars are about.

It is all good for the counsumer. If the Europeans want to keep their edge, they will have to offer more bang for the buck than they currently do.

That's right. They are also coming after the 3 series and A4 with the 2013 Cadillac ATS.

http://www.insideline.com/cadillac/a...t_1005111.html

[blackoutm3]

Dont care who makes what to what ratio. If a car is that fast just plain fast. GIVE IT PROPS!!!

[Cl0ud7]

Originally Posted by VVG

A little lesson in automotive performance history:

In the 1950's through 1970's, American cars dominated over the Japanese and Europeans in terms of performance. Then came the 1980's with European cars starting to take the lead. Japan was mostly about economy cars. American performance was dead. In the 1990's the came the Japanese supercars...Nissan 300ZX, Mazda RX-7, Mitsubishi 3000GT, Toyota Supra. Then, from 2000 onwards, the Europeans were on a never-ending power binge like nobody else. Sure there was the Vette and Viper, but overall, the Europeans dominated. Now America is back in the game. The real kicker, however, is that for years, in order to get premium performance, you had to pay premium Euro prices. Now you can get American speed much more cheaply, which has always been what muscle cars are about.

It is all good for the counsumer. If the Europeans want to keep their edge, they will have to offer more bang for the buck than they currently do.

Well said

[Erhan]

Originally Posted by blackoutm3

Dont care who makes what to what ratio. If a car is that fast just plain fast. GIVE IT PROPS!!!

That's weird to hear from an M3 owner. So you prefer a car that can't handle but has billion horsepower for the straights?

ps. not saying this is the case for Camaro.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by shift@red

While the time generally speaking is impressive, given the fact that the Ring is all about power to weight over everything else, seeing as this car has almost 600 hp it really isnt very impressive.

At a weight of 3750 with 580 hp, thats a P/W of 6.46.

Just for reference, and you know whats coming, the new 911 with an expected weight of 3200 and 400 hp (P/W of 8) is still faster (7:40).

Absolutely agree. Even if you don't have the weight exact, the point is still completely valid. The car certainly is fast but it is not fast for it's power to weight. What does that mean. It means the car actually does not handle all that well. It is doing relatively worse in the corners and better in the straights.

The next gen M3 almost for sure won't be this fast on the 'Ring. It will be a very fast car but not this fast on this circuit. My early estimate (here) was low 7:5X at best.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Absolutely agree. Even if you don't have the weight exact, the point is still completely valid. The car certainly is fast but it is not fast for it's power to weight. What does that mean. It means the car actually does not handle all that well. It is doing relatively worse in the corners and better in the straights.

Disagree, mostly. Surprise.

The issue is a good deal more complicated than that, or a Bugatti of any current flavor would be a world-beater around any given course. Not just at the 'Ring.

First of all, at any given power to weight, a lighter car will tend to be quicker than a heavier car around a road course. The reason is that any car will roll the tires under during heavy cornering, so the outside edge is the active edge. A heavier car will put that outside edge under greater duress, hence it'll likely not corner quite as quickly, especially after a lap or two.

As for the Camaro, nobody knows what it weighs or what its power level is except GM at this point. The motoring press tens to cluster at 550 HP and 4200 pounds, but we'll see, since I've seen published power all the way up to 600 HP.

For the car to beat the original 505 HP Z06 Vette is a genuine achievement, almost regardless of the power to weight. When you look at the current list of cars slower than the Camaro, you have to give it props.

Lastly, cornering Gs are in no way a full measure of a car's "handling", as you well know. Far from it, in fact. In the fullness of time, we'll learn if the Camaro is indeed a handler, or if it's just fast.

Originally Posted by swamp2

The next gen M3 almost for sure won't be this fast on the 'Ring. It will be a very fast car but not this fast on this circuit. My early estimate (here) was low 7:5X at best.

Tend to agree with you, but hope you're wrong.

Bruce

[Dave07997S]

I think it would be great for the ZL1 Camaro to do this, however, until I see a production car go out and do this I really will reserve comment.

Dave

[Andrew_K_AZ]

Valid point on Power to Weight Ratio. That's all good, and competing manufactures will always choose different paths. As they should, otherwise this will be a very boring world.

Brand prejudices aside, in my option what matters is: If you can build a car that looks nice, can go around a challenging track faster than the competition, consuming about the same amount of fuel or less, have space to carry the same number of people or more, and you price it at or below the competition.... then your deserve all the accolades.

[HBspeed]

The ZL1 is 580 HP and 556 Ft/Lbs. confirmed.

Its weight is still "unconfirmed" but has been all but alluded to be in 4200 lbs. range.

That sure is a heavy car! It's a much smaller car than my Challenger SRT8 6.4L, and has an aluminum block (instead of my iron block) though adding a supercharger. Yet still weights about the same.

Statistics like this scare me into believing that the next M3/M4 will likely pack on more weight. The ability to "cheat" weight and still post incredible lap times is being made increasingly possible by new suspension and computer management tricks.

[newowner35i]

i was surprised to but then saw the car it had a roll cage, stripped interior, semi slicks, and carbon brakes then i knew why it did it in 7:41

[erio]

Originally Posted by newowner35i

i was surprised to but then saw the car it had a roll cage, stripped interior, semi slicks, and carbon brakes then i knew why it did it in 7:41

Those are the same Summer tires used in the 2011 Ford Shelby GT500 Mustangs that have the SVT pack. The interior is not really stripped. The only things I see missing are the headliner, carpet, and stock seats. All the other gadgets are still there. While that may have reduced the weight the roll cage also added some back. I'm not sure how much the roll cage did for the time. I doubt they will be using those seats, but I suspect it will be something lighter than what they use on the base car. Pics below:

http://blogs.insideline.com/straight...gring-run.html

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

Disagree, mostly. Surprise.

The issue is a good deal more complicated than that, or a Bugatti of any current flavor would be a world-beater around any given course. Not just at the 'Ring.

First of all, at any given power to weight, a lighter car will tend to be quicker than a heavier car around a road course. The reason is that any car will roll the tires under during heavy cornering, so the outside edge is the active edge. A heavier car will put that outside edge under greater duress, hence it'll likely not corner quite as quickly, especially after a lap or two.

As for the Camaro, nobody knows what it weighs or what its power level is except GM at this point. The motoring press tens to cluster at 550 HP and 4200 pounds, but we'll see, since I've seen published power all the way up to 600 HP.

...

Lastly, cornering Gs are in no way a full measure of a car's "handling", as you well know. Far from it, in fact. In the fullness of time, we'll learn if the Camaro is indeed a handler, or if it's just fast.

I should have run some numbers before agreeing with a somewhat preliminary conclusion. Your gut feeling has certainly bested mine here.

HP has been confirmed (Motortrend for one) at 580. Last years SS weighed a tad under 3900. It is highly unlikely the new ZL1 will be lighter. Using these figures give a lb/hp of 6.7. One of the closest Ring times I could find for a Porsche was the 2006 Turbo, 480 hp, 3487 lb, 7:38. Its lb/hp is 7.3. That is nearly 10% worse on weight to power.

A lower lb/hp will be faster in the straights, period. We won't disagree there. What is left, corner entrance speeds, corner speeds and corner exit speeds. All highly tied to the "handling" and yes also to the ultimate grip the car can sustain.

Here the Veyron makes my point though. Although generally Ring times are well predicted by a linear regression of power to weight, each car can under or overachieve its predicted values. Those that overachieve (i.e. besting a predicted time) are not doing so by being magically faster than their given power and weight in a straight line, but instead are making the lower times by performance in the corners. The Veyron is a rocket in a straight line but simply can't keep up in the corners thus is radically underachieves on the Ring based on its power to weight.

However.... Putting these ZL1 numbers into my prior regression model yields something fairly surprising. The Porsche example I chose was somewhat extreme, over achieving a predicted time by about 16 seconds (turns out to be 1.7 standard deviations). The ZL1 is also an over achiever of sorts as well at 12 seconds better (1.3 standard deviations). In other words is it actually quite an overachiever as well (again if the 3900 figure is roughly correct, if not and it is higher that only makes the car even more of an overachiever), perhaps just not quite to the level of the best out there. For reference most BMWs tend to be slight underachievers for their power to weight the M3 is only a slight overachiever at 3 seconds better than predicted which is a mere 0.3 sigma.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by HBspeed

Statistics like this scare me into believing that the next M3/M4 will likely pack on more weight. The ability to "cheat" weight and still post incredible lap times is being made increasingly possible by new suspension and computer management tricks.

There is hope for the next M3. IIRC the basic F30 is slightly wider than the E90, has a larger wheel base but is about the same height and length. BMW tends to best its competitors with less power, less weight and better efficiency (well at least compared to AWD). BMW is still pushing its Efficient Dynamics program and the use of aluminum and composites absolutely will increase in the F3X M3.

[erio]

Some other vids I found:

http://www.motortrend.com/av/roadtes...k_reuss_video/

http://www.chevrolet.com/camaro-zl1/#image1 - go to view all and there are two development/marketing vids.

!

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Not exactly on point, but I just saw a ZL1 in the flesh yesterday - at the Texas State Fair, of all places. I was impressed, primarily because the car looked very understated and could be mistaken for a normal SS from the middle distance - or even a little closer than that. Very little to differentiate it except for the hood, with its air outlets up near the front.

Yeah, for a Camaro fan, front end air inlets, wheels and tires, exhaust plus badging all differentiate it, but there is essentially no bling on the car over and above standard SS that I could see, which for me is worth a thumbs up.

Bruce

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Skullbussa

I don't think there is any chance whatsoever that the next M3 will come close to that time.

While fun-factor still trumps 'ring times in my buying criteria, I will have a hard time stomaching a $35k luxury penalty when my car is getting destroyed on race tracks by Mustangs and Camaros.

BMW needs to get into the horsepower race. The S65 engine was a travesty, terrible fuel economy, no torque, overly complicated and a poor competitor to a corporate Ford V8 that costs half the price. The next engine needs to be nothing less than 450 hp/450 ft.lb with forged pistons and the ability to handle additional boost. Anything less than that and it will be immediately crossed off my list.

Hmmm. Most folks call the S65 a masterpiece. Something tells me you have not spent much if any time in one near redline. Check back in when you have. Sure the fuel efficiency sucks but is that really anyone's top priority? I too would like it to be better and that will come for sure in the next gen car. I think the F10 M5 is boasting a 30% increase in mpg.

Also last I checked the Mustang in question (brand new) and the M3 (coming up on 4 years old) are pretty well neck and neck in nearly all contests. The most solid rumors and trends in M3 and M5 outputs supports 450 hp. It may come in a bit higher. It won't have 450 ft lb. For the billionth time the M3 does not lack torque at the wheels where it counts. Crank torque is pretty meaningless. If you want a faster car (outside of 0-60) more hp or less weight are the only solutions.

[graider]

Originally Posted by shift@red

While the time generally speaking is impressive, given the fact that the Ring is all about power to weight over everything else, seeing as this car has almost 600 hp it really isnt very impressive.

At a weight of 3750 with 580 hp, thats a P/W of 6.46.

Just for reference, and you know whats coming, the new 911 with an expected weight of 3200 and 400 hp (P/W of 8) is still faster (7:40).


And for those who asked if the M3 with be around this time, dont hold your breath. Next M3 will likely be around what the GTS is, which also isnt a very impressive time.

2012 GTR said hello to turbo/s around the ring. gtr is 500 lbs heavier.

[shay2nak]

it barely hit 170 on the straight even with all that power. I guess that's what happens when you design a car that looks like a brick that weighs 4200 lbs.