Why does BMW not use Brembo brakes

[MrHarris]

Single caliper brakes FTW.

[Technic]

Originally Posted by aus

BUT the X5/X6 M versions do have fixed caliper, multi-piston front brakes. I believe the rears are still sliding calipers. At least that's what the press release said.

The pre-production X5/6 M that I saw at the M Power Tour had the same type of sliding caliper that the M3 has but only bigger. And now I see that the production X5/6 M will have fixed, 4 piston front calipers:


The rear calipers were indeed sliding... I stand corrected.

[newbieguy]

I found a couple of info. regarding this subject I'm not sure how true this is since BMW still does not offer brembo:

http://www.zercustoms.com/news/Bremb...s-for-BMW.html

http://www.motorauthority.com/bmw-no...bo-brakes.html

[Technic]

Originally Posted by newbieguy

I found a couple of info. regarding this subject I'm not sure how true this is since BMW still does not offer brembo:

http://www.zercustoms.com/news/Bremb...s-for-BMW.html

http://www.motorauthority.com/bmw-no...bo-brakes.html

Those Brembo are the 135i standard/Performance brakes kits for the 3-Series.

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by AP Racing - Chris_B

??? All the RS4's I've seen come with OEM Brembos as do the RS6's (at least in the USA). The OE units are generally similar to, but definitely different than, the Gran Tourismo kits. Different caliper models are used, not "watered down" in any way.

If BMW really wanted to impress their customers and give them the ultimate in OE performance/track day brakes, they would do well to call the boys over in Coventry at AP Racing. Seems to work for most top-end supercar manufacturers, as well as for the GT2 and GT4 FIA M3's.

Absolutely no point and no advantage for BMW to call AP racing or any other high-end brake manufacturer to improve their current breaks. Most //M owners either don't track or track but are no where near good enough to need a high end braking system. More than one track junky has been on here and stated over and over again that the stock system with better fluid (pick one of many available, everyone has their own preferences) and better pads is great.

Now does that mean there aren't owners who need the better breaks and will ultimately purchase an AP racing system or other BBK? NO. But, I would venture to say 5% or less of //M3 owners in this country need more than a pad and fluid upgrade. For BMW to jack the price of the //M another 3, 4, or even 5k for something that few owners need, and thus turning a loaded e92 into a 80k car after tax and tags, they may in fact lose some customers and lose money for something few would really need.

I think BMW made the right call.

Cheers,
e46e92

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by x838nwy

Umm... would we? I mean, all the kits in the market - AP, Brembo, Performance Friction, Rotora, etc. we can get through various distributors or even directly anyway. Buying a Brembo kit (may be with "BMW" painted on it) from BMW would most likely be more expensive than just getting a Brembo kit from EAS, for example. At least in the current set-up we can choose to up grade according to our budget and timing. That's how I look at it.

On a side-note, I think the M3 with its bespoke engine and exclusive parts are very expensive for BMW to make specially in Coupe form so keeping the possible options list as short as possible could make sense to BMW. I imagine it would be quite costly to them to put different brakes on perhaps one in five M3 coming out of their factory.



^ Are these the kits on the AP site or are they an exclusive spec to your outfit? I've never seen them on a car (E92) before, that's all. AP Racing FTW

p.s. Are the rear rotors strap-drive?

Our M3 was the first in the US to be equipped with AP's 7100/7150 system, this was taken just after test-fitting.

Front rotors are strap-drive, rears are fixed. The quality on the AP systems are second to none.

[AP Racing - Chris_B]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

I think BMW made the right call.

Being (a little) more serious for a moment, you are definitely correct that BMW rightfully should spare burdening 95% of the owners from the extra expense. Besides, I'd much rather spend less on sliding calipers if I was going to remove them anyway. Paying extra for marginally better (if any better at all) calipers like the STI/Evo/etc. boys do is a waste and I believe that the BMW engineers know that and won't go the lower spec Brembo route. The most serious runners of those vehicles upgrade the brakes to something more serious anyway as the pedal feel is just not what one would expect from fixed calipers. All that said, I would have loved to be a fly on the wall when the discussions were taking place over the 135i brakes!

Fortunately for me, I get to work with the 5% group every day. It's a lot more fun!

[ff1600]

My biggest issue with BMW is difficulties with (at least) some dealers who flag your car if it has aftermarket parts, and a BBK is a real red flag. "I see your race your car...."

So spend $5k+ and loose your warranty. Great. Or put the OEM back on prior to each dealer visit.

A little flexibility by BMWNA would be most helpful, such as offering approved kits and/or providers.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by ff1600

My biggest issue with BMW is difficulties with (at least) some dealers who flag your car if it has aftermarket parts, and a BBK is a real red flag. "I see your race your car...."

So spend $5k+ and loose your warranty. Great. Or put the OEM back on prior to each dealer visit.

A little flexibility by BMWNA would be most helpful, such as offering approved kits and/or providers.

You should be well aware that this doesn't really happen. It is specifically prohibited by the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. How do you think the enormous multi-billion dollar aftermarket parts industry survives?

[ff1600]

Yes, you are right. But so much depends on the attitude of the dealer's staff. They may be willing to help; they may not. Some form of support from BMWNA would help the enthusiast, which is presumably a core part of the BMW market.

[aus]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

Absolutely no point and no advantage for BMW to call AP racing or any other high-end brake manufacturer to improve their current breaks. Most //M owners either don't track or track but are no where near good enough to need a high end braking system. More than one track junky has been on here and stated over and over again that the stock system with better fluid (pick one of many available, everyone has their own preferences) and better pads is great.

Now does that mean there aren't owners who need the better breaks and will ultimately purchase an AP racing system or other BBK? NO. But, I would venture to say 5% or less of //M3 owners in this country need more than a pad and fluid upgrade. For BMW to jack the price of the //M another 3, 4, or even 5k for something that few owners need, and thus turning a loaded e92 into a 80k car after tax and tags, they may in fact lose some customers and lose money for something few would really need.

I think BMW made the right call.

Cheers,
e46e92

Same could be said of Porsche, Lambo, Audi RS and Ferrari, but they decided to do the right thing. These are M cars. NOT regular Bimmers.

[revvv_pshhh]

Will the OEM 6-piston 135 brakes not fit the M3!?

[Lemans_Blue_M]

Originally Posted by revvv_pshhh

Will the OEM 6-piston 135 brakes not fit the M3!?

NO, and it wouldn't matter even if they could be physically fitted to the M3 anyway.

It's not that simple when it comes to modern braking systems...

[lucid]

Originally Posted by revvv_pshhh

Will the OEM 6-piston 135 brakes not fit the M3!?

Why would you even remotely consider that???

The stock calipers/rotors will outbreak just about any production car out there in the M3's price range--even if they were shipped with Brembos. Stock vs stock an M3 will outbreak a 135 for sure in any context. The car has immense stopping power on the track stock. The issue is that it doesn't have brake cooling, which does not require a $7k investment.

[Steven_RW]

I am aware that the standard setup on good pads, fluid and braided hoses will probably be more than enough for anyone on the track. I used to have AP 6 pots on the front of my E46 and AP 4 pots on the rear. It wasn't just the braking power (which is limited by grip anyway) it was the immediate bite and confidence inspiring pedal feel that I liked. For me, that relief feeling when you hit a situation and the brake pedal has a serious effect immediately is worth a few £k.

What I would ask Chris from AP, is this. People keep saying to me, u can upgrade the front to 6 pots and u don't need to do the rears as they don't do much of the work. Can you tell me whether that is right or wrong? I just can't figure out how you can upgrade the fronts massively and NOT upgrade the rears without causing brake bias issues.

I also am struggling with the idea that the AP kit doesn't come with 380mm discs as the sizes of the kit is basically the same sized discs as standard (appreciate they may be slightly thicker?).

Cheers!

Steven_RW

[808MGuy]

Originally Posted by lucid

Why would you even remotely consider that???

The stock calipers/rotors will outbreak just about any production car out there in the M3's price range--even if they were shipped with Brembos. Stock vs stock an M3 will outbreak a 135 for sure in any context. The car has immense stopping power on the track stock. The issue is that it doesn't have brake cooling, which does not require a $7k investment.

Yeah but...the Brembo sticker alone adds 30hp

Some people just don't get it. I'm afraid this argument is going to be a losing battle. If you must have Brembos then just go buy them on your own. The number of owners that actually need them would probably be about 1% of all M3s made. Unless you're a serious track junkie, you won't need them. BBK for a street car is plain retarded because it all show!

[AP Racing - Chris_B]

Originally Posted by Steven_RW

I am aware that the standard setup on good pads, fluid and braided hoses will probably be more than enough for anyone on the track. I used to have AP 6 pots on the front of my E46 and AP 4 pots on the rear. It wasn't just the braking power (which is limited by grip anyway) it was the immediate bite and confidence inspiring pedal feel that I liked. For me, that relief feeling when you hit a situation and the brake pedal has a serious effect immediately is worth a few £k.

What I would ask Chris from AP, is this. People keep saying to me, u can upgrade the front to 6 pots and u don't need to do the rears as they don't do much of the work. Can you tell me whether that is right or wrong? I just can't figure out how you can upgrade the fronts massively and NOT upgrade the rears without causing brake bias issues.

I also am struggling with the idea that the AP kit doesn't come with 380mm discs as the sizes of the kit is basically the same sized discs as standard (appreciate they may be slightly thicker?).

The larger (378mm kit) is available, but I recommend the 368mm kit as it fits more 18" wheels without spacers or other silliness. The track guys drove us to this decision to offer this one. It's only a 5mm radius difference anyway (less than 1/4"). The rotors are not only strap drive (a significant improvement over anything else out there, especially the OE rotors), but also 36mm wide (vs. 29.8mm OE) for a big gain in thermal capacity.

On the rear upgrade issue, there are two things to consider -

1) Temperature vs. brake torque: The rears generally run cooler (not on ALL cars, however) and will cool more quickly. However, increasing the brake torque on the front axle alone will usually increase stopping distance, at least at threshold braking (impending lockup). It's not as big of a deal on the E92 M3 as the front is not too much bigger than OE, but it can't simply be dismissed either. Personally, I would not do fronts only or recommend it to anyone else. But, hey, my kids don't always listen to me either!

2) Pad choice: Fortunately for most M3 owners, most pad manufacturers respect them enough to produce many compounds in the OE pad shape. However, with well-known, fixed multi-piston calipers, nearly all pad compounds are available. When dialing in the car for a particular track, sometimes a different rear pad can be used when other adjustments are too abrupt or just not readily available. I've done this with professional or highly-experienced amateur drivers in the past with sometimes fantastic results. Other times, well, we'll just call those learning experiences...

No, BBK's aren't for everybody, but I don't like to drive a track vehicle without them. The feel is just so predictable and so good. They inspire the confidence I need to push it hard without getting in over my head. That said, I worry too much about what others might or might not say at the local meet or car show. I'm tough enough to satisfy without concerning myself with pleasing anyone else. Unless, of course, they are running better lap times. Then I'm all ears!

Do I NEED a BBK? I don't know. Do I NEED an M3?

Chris

[lucid]

Originally Posted by Steven_RW

I am aware that the standard setup on good pads, fluid and braided hoses will probably be more than enough for anyone on the track. I used to have AP 6 pots on the front of my E46 and AP 4 pots on the rear. It wasn't just the braking power (which is limited by grip anyway) it was the immediate bite and confidence inspiring pedal feel that I liked. For me, that relief feeling when you hit a situation and the brake pedal has a serious effect immediately is worth a few £k.

Assuming overheating is not a problem, grip is surely the ultimate limit, but how your system works in terms of bias contributes significantly to overall braking power. IMO, the stock system is very well balanced, and I've had no problems reeling in many E36s (some track prepeared), and stock C6 vettes among other cars lap after lap on the track. I can see what you are saying about the "quality" of the braking experience, and it is up to the individual to decide if that is worth $7k. Honestly, I considered the option for a long time, but decided against it. For people who decide not to invest in a BBK, but still want to explore different "bite" characteristics, trying out different pad compounds is an alternative method although that won't produce the more immediate brake response you mention. The biggest difference in pedal "feel" was the SS brake lines + Castrol fluid in my experience. In terms of the different modulation characteristics of track pads on this car, I like the R19s the best, and then the Carbotech XP10s so far. XP12s are too grabby, and HT10s were OK in that regard.

[FStop7]

How many of you have even faded the stock brakes, anyway?

[emjei]

Hey guys did we forget that BMW brakes are covered under the maintenance plan ?

Do you realized how much a change of pads and Brembo rotors will cost ??

[wolftrouble]

Originally Posted by FStop7

How many of you have even faded the stock brakes, anyway?

Me. On a not-very-hot day at the track the last few laps of the afternoon runs were a little scary in spots, I found myself stomping pretty damn hard to get what I would consider effective braking.

This was with stock everything, though - the RS19's the 600t brake fluid are on for this weekend and I expect a significant improvement, even with 100+ temps.

[bigjae1976]

I plan to get a BBK when I take delivery. I'm not going to kid myself, it is partly for looks.

I like overkill/confidence factor. I am willing to gamble my money that a well designed BBK can handle more heat than the OEM brakes. Will I ever hit the thermal limits of a BBK? Hopefully not.

Last thing is the removable bridge option. My future M3 will be a dual duty street/track car. The removable bridge saves a lot of work when changing from street to race pads and vice versa.

For me the initial cost won't matter and I won't lose money on the BBK from selling it. That's because I'll keep my car for a long time...unless something really bad happens. I would never do this if I were only planning on keeping my car for a couple of years.