|
|
09-13-2007, 09:34 PM | #23 |
Reincarnated
245
Rep 4,227
Posts |
You can save face by not publicly applauding his post as oozing facts. You can PM me with your concurrence if you like.
__________________
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-13-2007, 09:39 PM | #24 | |
Lieutenant General
611
Rep 10,407
Posts |
Cont.
Quote:
I do not find it fulfilling to constantly argue with those that do not follow "the BMW gospel". I just like to post based on facts and evidence and dislike posts about concrete issues such as certain performance metrics which are guided by opinion with not much factual basis. Heck if you want to talk about body styles, interior appearance, or any other aesthetic issues you clearly need no data, one's opinion is all that is required. OK last but not least, "The M simply is not as focused a sports car as the 911S; and it's not meant to be." I was initially going to agree with you here and do agree to some extent but will also take some issue as well. Just because the car will probably be more comfortable and heavier than a 911S that does not make it intrinsically less of a true sports car. Clearly the new M is getting the label as a GT not a sports coupe. But heck for that matter with the amount of luxury and comfort and everyday driveability present in the 911 is it not also really a GT? What if you had a car identical to a 911 but with 4 seats (I know probably impossible, but just for the sake of argument). If the M3 outperforms the 911S in acceleration, braking and out laps it on most tracks then by what definition is it less of a focused sports car? Is it the number of seats, the trunk volume, the steering feel, etc.? Perhaps only Lotus owners can call a 911 a GT and not really a focused sports coupe? Perhaps this is simply a question of semantics... |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-14-2007, 03:31 AM | #25 |
Moderator / European Editor
1537
Rep 6,754
Posts |
AFAIK the 911 S achieved a 8:05 in Sportauto Supertest. So the rumour has it that the E92 M3 will get about the same time, maybe the identical 8:05. This is for MT and likely with Cup+. I personally doubt that the M-DCT saves another 5 seconds or even more on a single lap. So I tend to agree with Devo that a sub 8min time is not very likely, whereas again I have to say that I don't like the style of calling brand loyalty... We'll see whose times' are right...
Best regards, south |
Appreciate
0
|
09-14-2007, 04:04 AM | #26 | |
Major General
532
Rep 5,498
Posts |
Quote:
I will say it right now, the new M3 is not the same focused racer it was when it debuted in E30 guise. But, that doesnt mean that it isnt a racer either. With new technology like EDC and Porsche's PSAM, cars have the ability to be both comfortable daily drivers and track terrors. I think the best example of what I am talking about is the 997 GT3. The 997 GT3 is actually a little softer than the 996 version. However, the 997 is a much more capable and faster car. The same goes for the new M3. No longer does owning a sports car with race car pedigree mean that you are getting a loud, stiff, and vibrating mode of travel. Now you can go out and buy the new M3 and really get the best of both worlds. So, the new M isnt focused but is it worse because of this? Can only a focused sports car lap the ring in under 8min? Personally I think those days are over and we will see more and more "sports" cars losing their focus in favor a split personalities.... Just me though Jason
__________________
Instagram: jellismotorwerks |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-14-2007, 05:40 AM | #27 | |
Lieutenant
26
Rep 580
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-14-2007, 06:50 AM | #28 | |
Colonel
755
Rep 2,736
Posts |
Quote:
I will say that I think we have found some common ground. I agree with what you say in your last paragraph as I do like to judge cars on their results not the recipe. My point -which I know you understand- is that the M3 has more hurdles to overcome because it has to satisfy a much broader audience. (And, yes I would agree that if the M achieves these goals while being a four seat GT car, then BMW deserves a lot of credit.) I am just giving my opinion based on what we all know about these cars and cars in general. I do think that the M will be very close to the 997S's lap time. I am also impressed that the M appears to overtake it in most or all straight line speed contests. I mean, I love 911's (997S, turbo and GT3, that's it-what else is there; LOL.), but I also think that for the obscene amount of additional funds that it takes to acquire a new one -relative to a car like the M3- it (997S) should offer more power. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-14-2007, 10:36 PM | #29 | |
Lieutenant General
611
Rep 10,407
Posts |
Agreed
Quote:
However I do disagree with your point about the audiences. I think the audience for both the E92 M3 and the 911S will be quite similar. You will have the full gamut from brand whores, to rich dudes looking for status, to real enthusiasts. You will have the young and the old, those who can easily afford such cars and those who really have to stretch it. You will have those that appreciate every minute detail of the engineering and those who can not even use a Crescent wrench or change their own tire. The only difference may be a slightly older and slightly more affluent crowd in the 911. What do you think? |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-14-2007, 11:10 PM | #30 | |
Lieutenant General
611
Rep 10,407
Posts |
Number of shifts, etc.
Quote:
All of this is very speculative, yet also reasonable and perhaps even conservative. Under 8 minutes is still my bet for Cup+ tires and M-DCT! |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-14-2007, 11:56 PM | #31 | |
Captain
62
Rep 800
Posts
Drives: '08 E92 M3
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Cleveland, OH
|
Quote:
__________________
'16 F30 340i xDrive 6MT Melbourne/Black '08 E92 M3 6MT Jerez/Speed Cloth '18 F80 M3 6MT SO/CSAT |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-15-2007, 12:01 AM | #32 | |
Captain
62
Rep 800
Posts
Drives: '08 E92 M3
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Cleveland, OH
|
Quote:
__________________
'16 F30 340i xDrive 6MT Melbourne/Black '08 E92 M3 6MT Jerez/Speed Cloth '18 F80 M3 6MT SO/CSAT |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-15-2007, 07:30 AM | #33 | |
Colonel
755
Rep 2,736
Posts |
Quote:
I would have to agree with this. I didn't know/realize that I had posted otherwise, but, I just got up and need some serious java! |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-15-2007, 08:41 AM | #34 | |
Conspicuous consumption
99
Rep 1,183
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-15-2007, 08:52 AM | #35 | |
Moderator / European Editor
1537
Rep 6,754
Posts |
Quote:
Best regards, south |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-15-2007, 08:57 AM | #36 |
Conspicuous consumption
99
Rep 1,183
Posts |
You are right, the C2S has no business competing on the same track as the M3. You do love your Porsches, Mercedes, and Audis. Since you are the master of technological facts. What are the technological facts regarding the number of pistons in the Porsche's brakes vs the M3's and technical facts regarding the unladen weight of the two cars?
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-15-2007, 09:04 AM | #37 | |
Colonel
755
Rep 2,736
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-15-2007, 09:16 AM | #38 | |
Conspicuous consumption
99
Rep 1,183
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-15-2007, 09:42 AM | #39 | |
Colonel
755
Rep 2,736
Posts |
Quote:
As much as I love the idea of the Exige, I think it's a little too anemic in the mid-range for the street (for me). Haven't driven one, but I would have to generally agree with this from what I hear. Definately a nice track toy. I can't decide wtf to buy. I like the S5 as a dd. But now I'm hearing 14/21 mpg and a hefty gas guzzler tax. I'm leaning back towards the 335xi again. I really want the M3, but don't know that I want two 3 series cars at the same time. That's not really a bad thing though. If I do go 335xi, then I kept telling myself to get another 911S, but another low mileage used 06/07. Not to bring up another poor topic...BUT, I recently drove an '08 Z06 and boy does it go. I typically do not like vettes. (I also drove an '08 C6 w/z51 and the hp bump and did not like that car at all.) The z06, on the other hand, that's a whole different game. Granted the car is a little cheesy -with it's low rent interior and somewhat orange peel paint, but it's a super car. I believe part of the "cheese factor" is because of the stigma attached to one here in the states. You just can't deny the performance per dollar. It's looks quite menacing in black w/polished wheels. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-15-2007, 09:43 AM | #40 | |
Moderator / European Editor
1537
Rep 6,754
Posts |
Quote:
Still in the mood of being cynical? I promised not to show you up, but if you want so!? Best regards, south |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-15-2007, 10:42 AM | #41 | |
Lieutenant General
611
Rep 10,407
Posts |
Various
Quote:
Pretty much agee with that. At least we have learned that BMW will deliver cars in EU from the factory on Cup+ tires. That makes the comparo a bit more legitimate. As long as we have times from cars tired both ways and keep the two numbers in perspective it is all good IMO. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-15-2007, 10:58 AM | #42 | |
Moderator / European Editor
1537
Rep 6,754
Posts |
Quote:
Best regards, south Last edited by southlight; 09-16-2007 at 12:47 PM.. Reason: spelling |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-15-2007, 12:13 PM | #43 | |
Lieutenant General
611
Rep 10,407
Posts |
Quote:
I am not so sure. On paper, and according to the previous information I posted (notably the RS4 and 911S times) it does not seem that Cup+ tires should be required to get into the sub 8:10 range. If the car requires Cup+ tires to break 8:10 I will not be so impressed. That would mean that "apples to apples" (i.e. on "regular tires") vs. the E46 M3 you get less than 13 s improvement from the power, chassis, improved CG, etc., etc. Either way I will stick to my basic prediction, which you concur with - less than 8 minutes with Cup+ and M-DCT! |
|
Appreciate
0
|
09-15-2007, 11:35 PM | #44 | |
Conspicuous consumption
99
Rep 1,183
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
Post Reply |
Bookmarks |
|
|