DSC off = Fun

[DrakeKemper]

Personally, DSC OFF, is the only way I drive. I want the car to do exactly what I tell it to, not it to have a mind of its own. I know when to apply the power, when not to, how much to countersteer, etc. If you know how to drive, DSC is actually unsafe as you will do the right thing and DSC will make it the wrong thing.

[captainaudio]

Everyone who crashed thought they knew how to drive (until just before the crash).

If DSC kicks in you very likely did something wrong,

If it is kicking in on a regular basis attending a high performance driving school would probably be a very good idea.

CA

[paradocs98]

Worrisome series of threads regarding this topic lately. I'm not sure why they closed out Trevor's thread "Life and Death of an E92 M3," because there are certainly lessons to be learned.

I started driving in the Midwest when I was 15. As a teenager I did some pretty silly, irresponsible stuff behind the wheel. (And this despite otherwise being a good kid, and responsible in other aspects of life.) Luckily I only had a 102-hp car at my disposal (and front-wheel drive at that). I simply cannot imagine giving a teenager access to a 400+hp, high-performance car, unless it is in a supervised manner, in a safe environment. Kids, no matter how well-behaved or smart, simply don't have the judgment required to be given free, unsupervised access to a car like the M3. I am the same person at 41 that I was at 17, but I have tons more experience behind the wheel now, and much, much better judgment. There is just so much wrong in this kind of situation--as posted before, teenager + family money + M3 + little supervision = disaster oftentimes.

Trevor posted about the horrible pain and suffering of trashing his car. I can empathize with such a loss. But Trevor should understand that what he is describing is not pain. Pain would have been him with a broken femur, cracked ribs, a concussion, or worse. Pain would have been what would have been experienced by a family if he had slid around the corner and hit a 6-year-old riding his bike in the street.

Turning off DSC can certainly be a learning tool in the right situation and environment. It probably is smart to practice slide recovery and accident avoidance with DSC off on a closed course with an experienced instructor. Unfortunately, on the street, even if you think conditions are perfect and you're driving conservatively, you never know when a pedestrian or another car is going to force you to make an abrupt maneuver--and chances are, you will manage that maneuver more safely with DSC on.

I hope the OP for this thread was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Another volatile mix of inexperience, youthful exuberance, and 414hp could lead to another unfortunate result.

[tibra1]

Originally Posted by Mr.MichaelM3

I live my life 1/4 mile at a time..............................with DSC off

Any reference to F&F gets my vote..

[03BeastCharmer]

General soap box rant, not directed at OP: Part of the issue is in the '80's a high Hp car had 250hp, so not being smooth or not having traction control usually resulted in small(er) spins. Now, there are a ton of "normal" cars with 400-500 hp, and the lose of control from not being smooth happens with a lot less throttle movement. If in street normal driving, you get the traction control light to come on, your doing something wrong, be it trying to accelerate onto a side street too quickly, or turning a corner too fast for the conditions.

Even the MDM mode is seen by ///M as a track trainer mode, and not something a normal user should need to use on the street.

[Mr.MichaelM3]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Hopefully you will not end it the same way,

CA

Dude chill.........Im the complete opposite of that. It was a quote from Fast and Furious. Ive learned my lesson once already with DSC off and almost lost it! Very scary experience......

[Mr.MichaelM3]

Originally Posted by tibra1

Any reference to F&F gets my vote..

hahahahah

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by Mr.MichaelM3

Dude chill.........Im the complete opposite of that. It was a quote from Fast and Furious. Ive learned my lesson once already with DSC off and almost lost it! Very scary experience......

I recognized the quote.
If I thought you were serious I would not have responded.

My favorite part of the fast and the furious was that the cars were apparently equipped with 88 soeed transmissions as the drivers were always s upshifting and never seemed to run out of gears,

CA

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by 03BeastCharmer

General soap box rant, not directed at OP: Part of the issue is in the '80's a high Hp car had 250hp, so not being smooth or not having traction control usually resulted in small(er) spins. Now, there are a ton of "normal" cars with 400-500 hp, and the lose of control from not being smooth happens with a lot less throttle movement. If in street normal driving, you get the traction control light to come on, your doing something wrong, be it trying to accelerate onto a side street too quickly, or turning a corner too fast for the conditions.

Even the MDM mode is seen by ///M as a track trainer mode, and not something a normal user should need to use on the street.

In my opinion with advances in suspension and tire technology I think that modern cars are safer and probably easier to drive fast than many older high performance cars,

Of course it is not possible but it would be great if we could all line up alll of the cars we ever owned and drive them back to back,


CA

[tibra1]

Originally Posted by Mr.MichaelM3

Dude chill.........Im the complete opposite of that. It was a quote from Fast and Furious. Ive learned my lesson once already with DSC off and almost lost it! Very scary experience......

Brush it off dude..some feel they are the hyper moral police or self-appointed road and track over-lords...which we humble serfdom must bow down to..I just grin...

Just ask any racer, any real racer. It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile; winning's winning

[In Extremis]

Originally Posted by tibra1

Brush it off dude..some feel they are the hyper moral police or self-appointed road and track over-lords...which we humble serfdom must bow down to..I just grin...

Just ask any racer, any real racer. It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile; winning's winning

Seriously though, it comes down to common sense/skill level of the driver. DSC is an aid, nothing more. I'm not even sure if it's still on, but there was a show on speed called "the car show." Adam corolla was attempting to run a road course in an m3 to test it against other cars, he crashed almost instantly. Afterwards he said he expected the m3 to just be a computer and it would save him or something to that effect. You need to learn driving technique not if you want to drive with dsc off, but if you want to use an M3 for anything but commuting.

[LateBraking]

Originally Posted by kmarei

so does that mean that anyone driving an older car without DSC is an unsafe driver?
you know outside the states, not everything requires a legal waiver
people are assumed to have some intelligence and know what's good for them

Older cars don't tend to have 414 horsepower from the factory. Also, different countries don't present a valid apples to apples comparison as they have varying levels of differing conditions like road conditions, traffic conditions, driver licensing restrictions, drivers education requirements, law enforcement, the laws themselves, etc.

Also, if you hit a pedestrian, you gonna tell them they should hve known whys good for them and shouldn't be taking a walk outside because you had to have DSC off? Or tell that mom that you hit her on the way to soccer practice for her kid because you wanted full control of your vehicle all the way up to the point that you didn't? DSC isn't some omnipotent life saving God, but the manufacturer included it for some reason. Just saying.

I only say these things due to knowing friends who have gotten hurt doing stupid things with DSC off; one just 2 days ago. He got a ride along at the track, got excited on the way home, hit a fire hydrant, flipped his car, and it lit on fire.

[sensi09]

Originally Posted by LateBraking

Older cars don't tend to have 414 horsepower from the factory. Also, different countries don't present a valid apples to apples comparison as they have varying levels of differing conditions like road conditions, traffic conditions, driver licensing restrictions, drivers education requirements, law enforcement, the laws themselves, etc.

Also, if you hit a pedestrian, you gonna tell them they should hve known whys good for them and shouldn't be taking a walk outside because you had to have DSC off? Or tell that mom that you hit her on the way to soccer practice for her kid because you wanted full control of your vehicle all the way up to the point that you didn't? DSC isn't some omnipotent life saving God, but the manufacturer included it for some reason. Just saying.

I only say these things due to knowing friends who have gotten hurt doing stupid things with DSC off; one just 2 days ago. He got a ride along at the track, got excited on the way home, hit a fire hydrant, flipped his car, and it lit on fire.

Sorry about your friend, but if someone hits a pedestrian or fire hydrant, they shouldn't blame it on DSC being turned off.

[LateBraking]

Originally Posted by sensi09

Sorry about your friend, but if someone hits a pedestrian or fire hydrant, they shouldn't blame it on DSC being turned off.

I 100% agree, DSC is not guilty, the driver is. But a driver that turns off DSC is probably not in a mild driver's state of mind.

[mrkhanna16]

I turn DSC off because it is fun....Nothing like drifting around at night

[1Sleeper]

Something tells me professional drivers/instructors arent hopping in their cars at the end of the day and switching off their TC cause they've got mad skillz. If I want to take advantage of what a lack of DSC offers I sure as hell am not doing it on a public road, but hey, I am an amateur I guess. ... PS CaptainAudio actually has thoughtful responses and is a knowledgable member of the community. A description that doesn't exactly cover a great many of the respondents in this thread.

[Richbot]

My little orange circle is on unless I need the cruise control or I don't feel like paying attention. The DSC in the car is pretty good but I'm still better. I do actually like the cruise control interlock though. Good save-us-from-ourselves feature.

A 414 hp car only safe with stability control? Pfft. The M3 is underpowered for the capabilities of the chassis.

The capability of the driver is another thing, but that's the driver's call, and anybody who says otherwise needs to get a life.

[DBH]

Originally Posted by LateBraking

If by responsible manner you mean in a controlled environment that legally allows it and each and every single person in the environment has signed a legal waiver releasing any and all liability of all persons present and there are no major obstructions or clear dangers, then by all means, go ahead.

Turning off DSC on public roads, on any public road, does not fulfill every one of these conditions.

"as circumstances allow" is the operative phrase in addition to "responsible manner". If that's how you define circumstances, good for you. I just happen not agree with you - IMHO. If one has the proper training in a high performance car, driving with the DCS off is not an issue. Without proper training, driving a car is irresponsible. How many people on the road in the US have proper training? Again, IMHO - not many! If all US drivers had to comply with licencing requirements of let's say Germany or the UK, I think our roads would be very empty.

Maybe I'm just in a subset of drivers who have the training AND experience to know how to enjoy AND HANDLE a high performance automobile. OBTW, I generally do drive with the DCS on unless I make a conscience determination to turn it off.

[kmarei]

Originally Posted by LateBraking

I only say these things due to knowing friends who have gotten hurt doing stupid things with DSC off; one just 2 days ago. He got a ride along at the track, got excited on the way home, hit a fire hydrant, flipped his car, and it lit on fire.

I think they key thing here is "doing stupid things"
If you push too far, even with DSC on, you'll still crash
I don't do stupid things with the DSC off
I just worry about people who think DSC on is like playing a computer game with infinite lives and keep pushing.
And I think learning the limits of your car is advantageous as opposed to just gunning it, pressing the DCT shift lever and thinking it's a f@&$ing Ps3 game

[kmarei]

:

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Why tough guy persona? You in a gang yo?

[mrkhanna16]

Originally Posted by Richbot

My little orange circle is on unless I need the cruise control or I don't feel like paying attention. The DSC in the car is pretty good but I'm still better. I do actually like the cruise control interlock though. Good save-us-from-ourselves feature.

A 414 hp car only safe with stability control? Pfft. The M3 is underpowered for the capabilities of the chassis.

The capability of the driver is another thing, but that's the driver's call, and anybody who says otherwise needs to get a life.

Amen.

[tibra1]

Back to our regularly scheduled program:..

All the DSC discussions have made the assumption that technology is a substitute for abilty and most importantly common sense..

This Sunday March 4 at 8pm Eastern time on Velocity channel is re-broadcasting a special: Grand Prix The Killer Years

A very sad time in the 60s and early 70s where it was common for Grand Prix drivers to be killed while racing, often televised for millions to see. Mechanical failure, lethal track design, fire and incompetence snuffed out dozens of young drivers. They had become almost expendable as eager young wannabes queued up at the top teams’ gates waiting to take their place.

Seeing what racers faced back in the days when they had to have balls of concrete to get into death traps and take them to the edge...

It may put these DSC discussions of late into some real perspective