Stock 03' E46 330CI hangs with E90 M3's at the track

[aarodynamics]

Thanks you guys, that was a ridiculously fun weekend. Thanks for bringing back the memories; I think that was one of the funnest track trips the group of us have taken so far. I look forward to our annual trip to ORP this year! Hopefully my wheel doesn't nearly fall of this time

My car definitely isn't stock. I was using Nitto NT01s in the vid, great tire. Here's a list of my mods: https://aaronmarks.backpackit.com/pub/1789149

The butt-o-meter between me and some friends taking guesses says the car is about 250hp before it starts getting hot and retards the timing; ZHPs don't have oil coolers. The oil pump nut is taken care of on mine and I also have a the pan baffled so I think I'm set there.

The E46 is an amazing car but I can guarantee you after sitting behind the wheel of dawgdog's car on multiple occasions that the e9x is a superior machine in every way; incredible car! Thanks Dawgdog for the experience!

Now I just need to stop working so I can come out and play with my friends ;-)

[Sauce]

Originally Posted by Porschefile

That is mainly because the less powerful cars are less intimidating to drive hard. The E36 M3 is not going to have anywhere near the road course performance of your car, but the car is less difficult to drive fast[er] and has a lot less power to scare novices in corners. The learning curve is tougher in a higher hp car for sure, having driven both high and low hp cars in my first few DE's.

I have to disagree with this. The E36 m3's are extremely accessible and capable, the price point allows a lot more (read better) drivers to get into them. Also if you are looking to make something pretty track focused they can't be beat. I guarantee you when M3's get into the low 30's high 20's you will see waaaay more in advanced groups blazing the track. Trust me when I say some of the setups in track only e36 M3's are way more leery than v8 m3's. Power on oversteer is easy to correct and easy to expect (hehe that rhymes), as drivers get more advanced they want corner entry oversteer and that sh*t will bite you in the ass so fast!

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Sauce

I have to disagree with this. The E36 m3's are extremely accessible and capable, the price point allows a lot more (read better) drivers to get into them. Also if you are looking to make something pretty track focused they can't be beat. I guarantee you when M3's get into the low 30's high 20's you will see waaaay more in advanced groups blazing the track. Trust me when I say some of the setups in track only e36 M3's are way more leery than v8 m3's. Power on oversteer is easy to correct and easy to expect (hehe that rhymes), as drivers get more advanced they want corner entry oversteer and that sh*t will bite you in the ass so fast!

If you are comparing stock E36s to stock E90s...there is no comparison. Even among E46s. Even modded E36s and E46s will have trouble keeping up with a somewhat stock or lightly modded E9X. The inherent trait of e36s and E46s is understeer and it does take a considerable amount of effort to dial it out. What, IMO, makes the E9X platform unique is that it is surprisingly tail happy and WILL come around on you. I would guess is that BMW could dial in the car to be more neutral because they can use electronics to stay out of the courtrooms.

The oddest thing that I immediately noticed when I started hitting the track is as you go from novice to advanced run groups, the cars get crappier. If you see a shitbox in the paddock, most of the time its an instructor.

Look at the novice run groups...it usually looks like a car show. I think what happens is...

1. Buy a nice car.
2. Take it to the track to drive it like it was meant to be driven.
3. Gets hooked.
4. Gain more and more skill.
5. Realize running a newer car is VERY expensive.
6. Buys a miata to save money.

The organization I drive with goes Green - Blue - Yellow - Red. I think by the time most make it to Yellow, you realize you need seats and/or harnesses. Again, most are not willing to turn a newer model car into a track only car. So that is when they would buy something like an E36.

[klammer]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

If you are comparing stock E36s to stock E90s...there is no comparison. Even among E46s. Even modded E36s and E46s will have trouble keeping up with a somewhat stock or lightly modded E9X. The inherent trait of e36s and E46s is understeer and it does take a considerable amount of effort to dial it out. What, IMO, makes the E9X platform unique is that it is surprisingly tail happy and WILL come around on you. I would guess is that BMW could dial in the car to be more neutral because they can use electronics to stay out of the courtrooms.

The oddest thing that I immediately noticed when I started hitting the track is as you go from novice to advanced run groups, the cars get crappier. If you see a shitbox in the paddock, most of the time its an instructor.

Look at the novice run groups...it usually looks like a car show. I think what happens is...

1. Buy a nice car.
2. Take it to the track to drive it like it was meant to be driven.
3. Gets hooked.
4. Gain more and more skill.
5. Realize running a newer car is VERY expensive.
6. Buys a miata to save money.

The organization I drive with goes Green - Blue - Yellow - Red. I think by the time most make it to Yellow, you realize you need seats and/or harnesses. Again, most are not willing to turn a newer model car into a track only car. So that is when they would buy something like an E36.

I am presently fighting this urge... Yes, it's expensive to track this car

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by klammer

I am presently fighting this urge... Yes, it's expensive to track this car

Lol...I've been lurking around on Craigslist for a beater Miata. I've found one...trying to resist calling them.

[FrenchBoy]

Originally Posted by klammer

I am presently fighting this urge... Yes, it's expensive to track this car

Agreed. Although it is such a fun car to track. And it's nice to pass GT3s and Exiges which there in advanced groups as well. Not sure a Miata could do that.

Although I think I will get a dedicated track car eventually...

[OC3]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

If you are comparing stock E36s to stock E90s...there is no comparison. Even among E46s. Even modded E36s and E46s will have trouble keeping up with a somewhat stock or lightly modded E9X. The inherent trait of e36s and E46s is understeer and it does take a considerable amount of effort to dial it out. What, IMO, makes the E9X platform unique is that it is surprisingly tail happy and WILL come around on you. I would guess is that BMW could dial in the car to be more neutral because they can use electronics to stay out of the courtrooms.

The oddest thing that I immediately noticed when I started hitting the track is as you go from novice to advanced run groups, the cars get crappier. If you see a shitbox in the paddock, most of the time its an instructor.

Look at the novice run groups...it usually looks like a car show. I think what happens is...

1. Buy a nice car.
2. Take it to the track to drive it like it was meant to be driven.
3. Gets hooked.
4. Gain more and more skill.
5. Realize running a newer car is VERY expensive.
6. Buys a miata to save money.

The organization I drive with goes Green - Blue - Yellow - Red. I think by the time most make it to Yellow, you realize you need seats and/or harnesses. Again, most are not willing to turn a newer model car into a track only car. So that is when they would buy something like an E36.

Heh, true that. Had more than a few friendly battles w/ E36's on the tracks.

Tracking E9x M3's is indeed expensive. Spent enough in 13 months to have bought & track-prep'd a S2k... :I

[Sauce]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

If you are comparing stock E36s to stock E90s...there is no comparison. Even among E46s. Even modded E36s and E46s will have trouble keeping up with a somewhat stock or lightly modded E9X. The inherent trait of e36s and E46s is understeer and it does take a considerable amount of effort to dial it out. What, IMO, makes the E9X platform unique is that it is surprisingly tail happy and WILL come around on you. I would guess is that BMW could dial in the car to be more neutral because they can use electronics to stay out of the courtrooms.

The oddest thing that I immediately noticed when I started hitting the track is as you go from novice to advanced run groups, the cars get crappier. If you see a shitbox in the paddock, most of the time its an instructor.

Look at the novice run groups...it usually looks like a car show. I think what happens is...

1. Buy a nice car.
2. Take it to the track to drive it like it was meant to be driven.
3. Gets hooked.
4. Gain more and more skill.
5. Realize running a newer car is VERY expensive.
6. Buys a miata to save money.

The organization I drive with goes Green - Blue - Yellow - Red. I think by the time most make it to Yellow, you realize you need seats and/or harnesses. Again, most are not willing to turn a newer model car into a track only car. So that is when they would buy something like an E36.

Yes, that is exactly my point. For 13K its tough to beat an M3, good drivers buy them and turn them into track beasts. I've had a lot of seat time in an e92 m3, the only time it will ever come around is on the power, that makes it extremely predictable and in my eyes, easy to drive. And of course I would never make the argument that an e36 is faster than an e9x, however go to the track and there will probably be more e36's running faster times.

Your sentiment about the higher the group the crappier the car cracked me up, I have said that word for word to so many people! That was the initial point of my post. At the track I will fly by gtr's and ferraris, yet will get passed by an s2k or an e36.

[Sauce]

Originally Posted by OC3

Heh, true that. Had more than a few friendly battles w/ E36's on the tracks.

Tracking E9x M3's is indeed expensive. Spent enough in 13 months to have bought & track-prep'd a S2k... :I

I very recently almost sold my car for an s2k just for that reason, I was adding up my mod list and what I still want to do and I could buy a nice AP1.

[kaiv]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

The inherent trait of e36s and E46s is understeer and it does take a considerable amount of effort to dial it out. What, IMO, makes the E9X platform unique is that it is surprisingly tail happy and WILL come around on you. .

I've had an E36, E46 and now E90 and this is simply not true

All 3 are dialed to understeer at the limit stock and it's easy (and progressive) on all 3 to get the tail out.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Sauce

Your sentiment about the higher the group the crappier the car cracked me up, I have said that word for word to so many people! That was the initial point of my post. At the track I will fly by gtr's and ferraris, yet will get passed by an s2k or an e36.

The worst is getting passed by a stock newer model Miata.

[Sauce]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

The worst is getting passed by a stock newer model Miata.

Gah! I've only had to swallow my pride and do that once. I say that if you've never been passed by a Miata, you haven't been to the track enough! lol

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Sauce

Gah! I've only had to swallow my pride and do that once. I say that if you've never been passed by a Miata, you haven't been to the track enough! lol

lol...kind of like a rite of passage to track driving.

On the flip side, I'd hate to be driving a Ferrari or a Lambo on the track. 'Cause you KNOW everyone is chasing after you trying to make some youtube videos. The equivalent of being on a Michael Jordan dunk poster and your name is not Michael Jordan.

[Erhan]

One of the reasons why I sold my M3. Still don't know what I want as a track car, but right now my MINI is doing great. So much cheaper to run it compared to the M3, and a better car for a newbie like me. No power = you better be good at the corners

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

If you are comparing stock E36s to stock E90s...there is no comparison. Even among E46s. Even modded E36s and E46s will have trouble keeping up with a somewhat stock or lightly modded E9X. The inherent trait of e36s and E46s is understeer and it does take a considerable amount of effort to dial it out. What, IMO, makes the E9X platform unique is that it is surprisingly tail happy and WILL come around on you. I would guess is that BMW could dial in the car to be more neutral because they can use electronics to stay out of the courtrooms.

The oddest thing that I immediately noticed when I started hitting the track is as you go from novice to advanced run groups, the cars get crappier. If you see a shitbox in the paddock, most of the time its an instructor.

Look at the novice run groups...it usually looks like a car show. I think what happens is...

1. Buy a nice car.
2. Take it to the track to drive it like it was meant to be driven.
3. Gets hooked.
4. Gain more and more skill.
5. Realize running a newer car is VERY expensive.
6. Buys a miata to save money.

The organization I drive with goes Green - Blue - Yellow - Red. I think by the time most make it to Yellow, you realize you need seats and/or harnesses. Again, most are not willing to turn a newer model car into a track only car. So that is when they would buy something like an E36.

[Porschefile]

I disagree with the notion that the E92 is that expensive to run. My operating costs on my '95 M3 racecar were more than on this car. A big part of that was new hoosiers every couple of weeks, but still. This hobby is as expensive as you let it get, there are guys spending $50k+ a year operating costs running E30's and miatas to try to be competitive on a national level.

The big difference between operating my old E36 and this E92 isn't the operating cost, it's that I'm risking a $50k machine instead of a $20k machine. But to compensate for that I drive 9/10 instead of 10/10 like when I had a full cage and all of that stuff.

And regarding slow cars passing everyone, duh it is the driver mod. A miata is not a fast car. That driver in a M3 would be really really fast. There are several people (myself included) that have a lot of track time in various cars and wouldn't get passed by a miata unless it has some major mods (or at a AX maybe ha).

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Porschefile

I disagree with the notion that the E92 is that expensive to run. My operating costs on my '95 M3 racecar were more than on this car. A big part of that was new hoosiers every couple of weeks, but still. This hobby is as expensive as you let it get, there are guys spending $50k+ a year operating costs running E30's and miatas to try to be competitive on a national level.

The big difference between operating my old E36 and this E92 isn't the operating cost, it's that I'm risking a $50k machine instead of a $20k machine. But to compensate for that I drive 9/10 instead of 10/10 like when I had a full cage and all of that stuff.

And regarding slow cars passing everyone, duh it is the driver mod. A miata is not a fast car. That driver in a M3 would be really really fast. There are several people (myself included) that have a lot of track time in various cars and wouldn't get passed by a miata unless it has some major mods (or at a AX maybe ha).

The driver mod is kind of the point of this thread.

I don't see how an E36 would be cheaper. You are pretty much beating down your V8 engine and DCT tranny. So there is a cost...you might not have to pay it. Then each M3 oil change is about x2 as expensive. My e92 is going through brake pads and more expensive 18" tires pretty fast. In an E36, I could get 17" tires for about 2/3 of the cost. The most noticeable difference is gas mileage. My s/c'd 330 can still get 12mpgs. My M3 is getting about 6.5mpgs.

My one track day and one weekend in my M3 were significantly more expensive than with my 330.

[Porschefile]

I guess it just depends on your particular situation. When I ran my racecar I cared about having fresh slicks etc. and my operating costs were easily $1k+ per weekend. Now that I run my street car it's around half that, partly because I save $300 or so by instructing (can't instruct and race with NASA). Not to mention mod money. As tempting as it is to spend money making the E92 fast, imagine how tempting it is when you're diving into corners with similar cars fighting for space. And GTS is a no-limits on mods class, except power/wt.

I understand I'm wearing the engine and trans faster than a street only car. I had a grand-am engineer tell me that they leave the engine internals alone in their E92 M3 racecars even in classes they are allowed to change stuff because the motor is, in his words, bulletproof. My racecar's first engine had 122k on it before it let go, and I expect this motor to do the same. Transmission, not sure yet.

Just let me justify my decision to have a dual purpose E92

[klammer]

As always, Einstein shows up to the party.... It's all relative

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Porschefile

Just let me justify my decision to have a dual purpose E92

+1 on this

IMO, the dual personality of the car is the best attribute of the M3.

[Porschefile]

Originally Posted by klammer

As always, Einstein shows up to the party.... It's all relative

I thought I was insane for what I spent on this hobby until I saw a spreadsheet for a grand-am gs car. I could buy many new GT3's for the operating costs alone for one car. My point was people spend what they can and to say it is "expensive" to track E92's and not to track older cars is incorrect in my case. Gotta say, I miss the feeling of safety that a 6pt cage and fire suppression gave me though, and knowing that even if I bent the hell out of my fenders it would be about 1 hoosier's price to fix.

[FrenchBoy]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

IMO, the dual personality of the car is the best attribute of the M3.

Agreed. Plus this is really just a hobby for me. We're not talking about racing here. I am having tons of fun with just ONE car to maintain. The consumables on the E9X M3 are certainly more expensive than on a cheaper dedicated track car, but they are probably much cheaper than maintaining another car for track use altogether.

The main issue in my mind is the cost of the car in case something bad happens.

Back on topic. A very good driver with a mod'ed 330Ci can be freaking fast!

[Sauce]

Originally Posted by Porschefile

There are several people (myself included) that have a lot of track time in various cars and wouldn't get passed by a miata

Lol sorry this made me laugh.