Vishnu Procede PWM Meth on Supercharged Darth Maul M3

[Eugene-TAIWAN]

So where is my reply?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Eugene-TAIWAN

so what is a PPS meth kit? I don't understand this.

well my tune is based on a non meth

so that is why I'm wondering if I switch a set up will it help and about how much.

lets just say the IAT's are the same but I'm just running higher boost

what kind of differences will we see.

and if they are 3 places where meth is injected where are they located to reach its cool max. potential?

Here's a very good explanation of PPS vs PWM meth systems:
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/water-me...n-systems.html

I can't possibly predict how much power you can gain by going with the Procede/pwm meth combo. Any number that I suggest would be nothing more than a guess. And I'd rather not do that given the fact that i have not come across a car with a set-up anything close to yours.

[Eugene-TAIWAN]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Here's a very good explanation of PPS vs PWM meth systems:
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/water-me...n-systems.html

I can't possibly predict how much power you can gain by going with the Procede/pwm meth combo. Any number that I suggest would be nothing more than a guess. And I'd rather not do that given the fact that i have not come across a car with a set-up anything close to yours.

Ok thanks for the feedback.

so can you PM me a price on your meth kit? I just want it for cooling purpose only

[E90///M3`]

very nice gains!

[Longbow64]

Pics, pricing, and availability?

[Cidle]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I use a 70/30 meth/water mix. The kit looks pretty invisible. The Procede is hidden in the DME compartment/box. The meth pump is mounted on a bracket under the hood. A custom-fit harness connects the procede to the meth hardware. I'm not don't with the custom brackets yet so I'd rather not post up pics of prototype stuff. But once they are all laser cut and powder-coated, i'll post up complete kit pictures. The whole kit is easy to install. Expect to spend about 1hr. Don't have to get the car on a lift or run any lines under the car as it re-uses the factory windshield water bottle. You don't have to take off the bumper either. The whole install is done under the hood. Easy to remove as well if you have any warranty work.

Yes, it picked up approx 30whp with no active changes to tuning. The DME simply ran it's ignition timing targets and the engine ran a cooler, denser air charge. For example, without meth, IATs climbed from 35degC to 55degC. WITH METH, they DROPPED from 35degC to 15degC. Some pretty big passive gains right there.

I'd be very interested in running this set-up on a non-intercooled set-up since they seem to be so popular. I'd imagine bigger relative gains that what we saw today since the temp drop would be so much more significant. Plus, we could undoubtedly run a higher boost pulley since the meth would perform better than any intercooler upgrade.

Cheers
shiv

Hey Shiv,

I had the greatest time driving the car back home lastnight! Every touch of the throttle dropped the IAT as if it were a cool fall morning... Drove 14 hrs straight, was amazed in the difference this system made, i couldn't stop for a rest, was having a hell of a time with the car!!

Was expecting to see @20HP from the IAT drop and @10HP with an IGN tweak, the procede and PWM meth already exceeded my expectations.. Install was quick, clean and easy.

The motor is definately wanting and needing more boost, can not wait to get my hands on a smaller pulley

Another great product shiv

Cheers,
Chuck

[Eugene-TAIWAN]

well after my studying from last night.

I think the price should land somewhere from $700-$1000USD

because on the N54/55 there is an additional pipe that is needed.

$700 is just for the kit itself.

Aquamist sells their own kit fo $900 so....

my question now is when can this be delivered I'm very curious to try it out of my boosted M3

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by cidle323

Hey Shiv,

I had the greatest time driving the car back home lastnight! Every touch of the throttle dropped the IAT as if it were a cool fall morning... Drove 14 hrs straight, was amazed in the difference this system made, i couldn't stop for a rest, was having a hell of a time with the car!!

Was expecting to see @20HP from the IAT drop and @10HP with an IGN tweak, the procede and PWM meth already exceeded my expectations.. Install was quick, clean and easy.

The motor is definately wanting and needing more boost, can not wait to get my hands on a smaller pulley

Another great product shiv

Cheers,
Chuck

Thanks for the kind words Chuck! It was great to meet you. Lovely car you have there. Make me want to get a boosted m3 myself Looking forward to the day when we give it more boost. I was really shocked by the power it made with such little work. I'm confident we can break the 600whp barrier with just another couple pounds of boost and some ignition map tweaking.

Cheers
shiv

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Eugene-TAIWAN

well after my studying from last night.

I think the price should land somewhere from $700-$1000USD

because on the N54/55 there is an additional pipe that is needed.

$700 is just for the kit itself.

Aquamist sells their own kit fo $900 so....

my question now is when can this be delivered I'm very curious to try it out of my boosted M3

Just to clarify this not a "meth kit". It's a fully functional tuning device with integrated meth injection hardware. The brains of the system is our plug-and-play Procede engine control computer that we use in all our BMW applications (n54 and n55), a custom wiring harness, a meth pump and aquamist high speed valve/flow tube/filter and nozzles. This is different from "just adding a meth kit" because the Procede controls the meth kid AND AT THE SAME TIME, re-maps AFR targets and ignition advance to compensate. This way it provides max power while providing what is perhaps the best meth injection failsafe you could even imagine (ignition and AFR adjustments don't happen until it reads actual methanol flow).

So what you will need is:

-Procede engine tuning computer. This can either be used instead of, or with, a reflashed DME that you already may have. The end result will be essentially the same either way. It remaps fuel, timing, eliminates speed limiter, removes cat inefficiency CELs, reads/clear codes, enables in-dash gauges, etc,. For n54/n55s, this unit costs $945. The M3 version's price is yet to be determined.

-Associated Methanol Injection hardware. This includes all the custom bits that we source from Aquamist. We do not use their controller or failsafe box since the Procede covers these functions while integrating with the tune. For n54/n55, this costs $1075 but that includes a charge pipe which will not be needed in the m3. So the price will be adjusted accordingly.

If you just want a meth kit and don't want a device to re-tune your engine when meth is flowing, you can simply purchase a kit from Aquamist. It will have it's own controller which will meter meth based upon injection DC. They work very well. But since it isn't a tuning device, you will not get the same gains/functionality as you would get with a Procede doing all the brain work.

Those are essentially your options. Hope that helps...
Cheers
shiv

[pbonsalb]

For forced induction, where you have a tune that changes AFR and/or timing when the meth is flowing and increasing octane like race gas would, it is nice to have the tune operate only when the meth is operating. This is almost more important with the supercharger than with the turbo. You can set up an Aquamist failsafe to drop boost on an electronic boost controller regulating boost on a turbo. However, you cannot set up an Aquamist failsafe to change ths supercharger pulley for lower boost if the meth goes out. The Procede is nicely integrated.

On the other hand, the stock ECU will take some advantage of race gas, so simply adding an Aquamist on a naturally aspirated car should provide some gains. Ideally, you would take full advantage of whatever extra octane you have, and that may be beyond the range of the stock ECU when meth is flowing -- which would make the integrated meth and tune the best way to go. I am also not sure how immediately the stock ECU adapts to the higher octane of meth or race gas.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

For forced induction, where you have a tune that changes AFR and/or timing when the meth is flowing and increasing octane like race gas would, it is nice to have the tune operate only when the meth is operating. This is almost more important with the supercharger than with the turbo. You can set up an Aquamist failsafe to drop boost on an electronic boost controller regulating boost on a turbo. However, you cannot set up an Aquamist failsafe to change ths supercharger pulley for lower boost if the meth goes out. The Procede is nicely integrated.

On the other hand, the stock ECU will take some advantage of race gas, so simply adding an Aquamist on a naturally aspirated car should provide some gains. Ideally, you would take full advantage of whatever extra octane you have, and that may be beyond the range of the stock ECU when meth is flowing -- which would make the integrated meth and tune the best way to go. I am also not sure how immediately the stock ECU adapts to the higher octane of meth or race gas.

The ECU adapts to octane pretty quickly in terms of ignition advance. But a good tune should already be running close to max timing numbers if its calibration properly. Which wouldn't leave much room on the table for power gains when running race gas. But no doubt you would see some passive gains from the lower temps if/when meth is injected. You are completely correct about the importance of an integrated tune/meth kit when running an NA or SC'd car that doesn't have the ability to drop boost when/if meth runs out or fails.

To clarify, the Procede actually holds a nearly infinite number map calibrations. This is because I calibrate two maps. One to represent the least aggressive tune I ever want to see active. And the second to represent the most aggressive tune I want to see active. The Procede will then "slide" smoothly between the two settings as a function of average knock retard and/or methanol flow. Essentially making it a feed-forward system that is adaptive to current conditions.

What this means in simple terms (on an NA car) is that when meth isn't flowing, it runs a basic pump-gas only tune which means slightly leaner up top with a couple degrees more advance (worth about 15-20whp). And as meth starts to flow and reach the max flow rate (as dictated in the meth flow map), the Procede transitions to the aggressive side of the range.

Of course, there is also a completely stock "pass-through" mode that you can select that applies no tuning changes if the need arises.

Maps are switched through the cruise control stalk and displayed on the tachometer

Cheers
Shiv

[kiln]

I wanna see the gains on a non intercooled ESS VT1-535 kit

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by kiln

I wanna see the gains on a non intercooled ESS VT1-535 kit

So would I. Should see some very big gains. Any local takers?

[UsurbrainM3]

I'll go buy a kit if you can insure me a hassle free smog check every 2 years that won't cost me an arm and a leg...

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by UsurbrainM3

I'll go buy a kit if you can insure me a hassle free smog check every 2 years that won't cost me an arm and a leg...

Are you referring to a supercharger kit? Because the Procede/pwm meth kit will not have any effect on smog checks.

[E90///M3`]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

So would I. Should see some very big gains. Any local takers?

if the g-power made that much power, i have a feeling i can break 600whp . wish i was local and had the money to spend.

someone needs to jump on this offer.

[Eugene-TAIWAN]

I'm just interested in the Meth kit!

but that is only like 1/2 kit for what Shiv is talking about. So I guess I have to get a Aquamist.

If I have to play around with my original tune from Gintani I highly won't do that, to me its too much of a risk involved.

in theory its all good but you never know what happens.

It kind of like saying if you running a VT625 7.5pSI and add this kit changing another pulley using a different tune to go 8.5psi or 9 psi.

how does it mess with the warranty of a ESS supercharger or a Gpower or Gintani for say?! what happens if the engine pops who's fault is it then?

Not saying its not a good product , its just me 2 cents.

[BPMSport]

Great work!

The huge gains show how much timing is being pulled out due to the hotter intake charge.

The meth is going to make a much more significant difference on a boosted car than an N/A car.

I'm still excited to put this on my car without a blower.

[IMG]

I need the following information for the Dyno Database:
What are the other performance modifications to the car?
Is the car catless? Primary cat delete? Secondary cat delete? XPipe? Exhaust? Etc.
I assume gasoline was 91 octane for California.
DCT or 6MT?

[DublinM3]

Originally Posted by Eugene-TAIWAN

I'm just interested in the Meth kit!

but that is only like 1/2 kit for what Shiv is talking about. So I guess I have to get a Aquamist.

If I have to play around with my original tune from Gintani I highly won't do that, to me its too much of a risk involved.

in theory its all good but you never know what happens.

It kind of like saying if you running a VT625 7.5pSI and add this kit changing another pulley using a different tune to go 8.5psi or 9 psi.

how does it mess with the warranty of a ESS supercharger or a Gpower or Gintani for say?! what happens if the engine pops who's fault is it then?

Not saying its not a good product , its just me 2 cents.

I agree that this option would not be ideal for anyone looking for support from the vendor who's SC they are running. The software in the different supercharger kits run very specific software and boost levels based on hardware design and im sure making changes to this would open you up to major support issues if something went wrong. In the case of the G-power car it looks like the changes on the stock boost setup worked well as I would expect would happen by improving octane and lowering intake temps but if it were my car i would not attempt to add more boost or advance timing unless I worked directly with G-power on the upgrade.

[UsurbrainM3]

Yup....

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Are you referring to a supercharger kit? Because the Procede/pwm meth kit will not have any effect on smog checks.

[Boosted-M]

Originally Posted by DublinM3

I agree that this option would not be ideal for anyone looking for support from the vendor who's SC they are running. The software in the different supercharger kits run very specific software and boost levels based on hardware design and im sure making changes to this would open you up to major support issues if something went wrong. In the case of the G-power car it looks like the changes on the stock boost setup worked well as I would expect would happen by improving octane and lowering intake temps but if it were my car i would not attempt to add more boost or advance timing unless I worked directly with G-power on the upgrade.

I would like to see SHIV's reply on this topic but I think the best option for this is:
- Log your AFR with the S/C map (Lets say 12.5afr for example)
- Enable procede with meth and WITHOUT any fuel/timing changes and see how much the meth drops the AFR (lets say 11.7afr with meth).
- Then you use procede to lean the car back to your original AFR (12.5) and DO NOT TOUCH TIMING.

I'm have a decent amount of experience with the Aquamist kits and I have to say they are GREAT... I'm very close to installing a kit on my ESS VT2 600 M3 for cooling IAT's purposes only but I'm really thinking about Shiv's setup!!!

What do you guys think?