Track use and warranty.

[MarksM]

Nice take
I agree 100% with your and especially the last paragraph.
My quest will have to be to show up to all BMW demonstration projects that are held at race tracks and demand that they void the warranties on both the BMW and the comparison cars. Show up at other places that the dealers are demoing cars at some of these comparison runs put on by the factory. Sorta like a autocross to me. Also at O'Fest to make sure that those cars are voided also. Hope that I don't scoop up too many customer owned cars.

Originally Posted by MaxL

This is very disturbing to see people having their warranties voided for HPDE events, but in my experience it is more of an exception than a rule. I saw many people that track their M3's and are open about it with no negative consequences. I do not know anyone who needed extra-expensive repairs though, just small stuff, so it may be the reason - maybe BMW voids warranties only when it really costs them and swallows smaller repairs.

Regarding BMW not selling a "track" car - I'd disagree with that. They are not selling you a "race" car, but you do need a track for exploring the capabilities of the car without getting in jail. There is a picture of a track on every page of the M3 brochure and almost every M3 ad, and it is not in the section of what you cannot do... So voiding warranties right and left just for track driving would make their advertising misleading and thus would be morally wrong (and bad for brand image), even though it may be withing their legal rights, thanks to small print and legal loopholes.

The car is advertised and sold as a vehicle for spirited and aggressive driving, so we are entitled to driving it like that. So what if this driving is done within the safer environment of a track - it is only better for BMW's brand image and society as a whole.

At the same time, you cannot fault BMW for voiding warranty for over-revving, overheating or other abuse - that's only fair...

If they voided my warranty and clearly showed me what I've done wrong, I'd shut up and swallow it, but if they would just say "you drove the car on a track so screw you" I'd start a PR war - much cheaper than suing them (thanks Internet) and they cannot sue you for disparagement if you stick to the facts. It is also MUCH easier for BMW to offer "hush repairs" than to lose a lawsuit and set a precedent (compare the cost of replacing one transmission to millions or tens of millions of $ in additional warranty claims every year, plus retroactive action from all those who had warranty work denied before...)

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by MaxL

This is very disturbing to see people having their warranties voided for HPDE events, but in my experience it is more of an exception than a rule. I saw many people that track their M3's and are open about it with no negative consequences. I do not know anyone who needed extra-expensive repairs though, just small stuff, so it may be the reason - maybe BMW voids warranties only when it really costs them and swallows smaller repairs.

Regarding BMW not selling a "track" car - I'd disagree with that. They are not selling you a "race" car, but you do need a track for exploring the capabilities of the car without getting in jail. There is a picture of a track on every page of the M3 brochure and almost every M3 ad, and it is not in the section of what you cannot do... So voiding warranties right and left just for track driving would make their advertising misleading and thus would be morally wrong (and bad for brand image), even though it may be withing their legal rights, thanks to small print and legal loopholes.

The car is advertised and sold as a vehicle for spirited and aggressive driving, so we are entitled to driving it like that. So what if this driving is done within the safer environment of a track - it is only better for BMW's brand image and society as a whole.

At the same time, you cannot fault BMW for voiding warranty for over-revving, overheating or other abuse - that's only fair...

If they voided my warranty and clearly showed me what I've done wrong, I'd shut up and swallow it, but if they would just say "you drove the car on a track so screw you" I'd start a PR war - much cheaper than suing them (thanks Internet) and they cannot sue you for disparagement if you stick to the facts. It is also MUCH easier for BMW to offer "hush repairs" than to lose a lawsuit and set a precedent (compare the cost of replacing one transmission to millions or tens of millions of $ in additional warranty claims every year, plus retroactive action from all those who had warranty work denied before...)

Great post Max. Fully agree with all of that.

MarksM: I think Max hit it on the head. Shoot a video, post it on youtube. Start the grassroots movement for high view counts at m3post.com and other BMW forums. Mock BMW and the massive hypocrisy and contradiction of promoting a sports car but then punishing one for using it. I have a decent (consumer grade, not pro) video camera and would be happy to let you borrow it for putting something together. Not sure I'm much of a funny video clip producer...

Remember the story about the angry airline passenger who really mounted some terrible PR against the airline on youtube. He might have cost the airline $180M: http://blogs.dovetailsoftware.com/bl...ines-180m.aspx

More hypocrisy: Look just a couple posts away: BMW M launches M Power Driver’s Cup and M Power Circuit Training. Link.

[MN M3]

I'm sorry, MaxL, but you aren't "entitled" to drive any car (even a M3, Ferrari, or any other "performance car") any way you wish to and then, when it goes bad, claim that the company is a hypocritical A-hole for denying a warranty claim. Where, exactly, is the line supposed to be drawn? Regardless of the nature of the car, BMW sold you a STREET car, not a race car. It is required to comply with thousands of rules and regulations, hence their disallowance of warranty claims for things that "abuse" the car, including HPDE's. Do I like it? No, I don't. But, it makes sense, both logically and in the business world. There has to be a bright line - cross it, and no warranty repair. To leave it up to vague impressions made on individual service advisers would open BMW (and every other company) to the opposite claim - that they are being inconsistent and unfair across the board. One person denies a claim - another approves it. There has to be a consistent standard.

[MarksM]

MN M3 Yea Know your are absolutely right. A Bright line would be a excellent idea.
I work with bright lines every day. I know my responsibility when i cross it. But I think that you should go back and read your Warranty, should be similar to mine. Read you Owners manual at about page 130 about driving on race tracks. To me this is just a little confusing
Yes Driving schools are about as bad a canyon driving (or street racing or stoplight racing or exhibition of speed or horsing around or reckless driving) just allot safer and especially easier on the car than autocrosses. So, if these are forbidden then there is a horrendous amount of white space left in the manual and warranty book in fact 132 is blank in my manual.
Say something. When I bring in the car for service and you think I am doing something out side of "the normal parameters of everyday driving" say something, warn me let me them make an informed decision about the risk. Gee I think that I bought/leased the car because it was advertised as a vehicle to be driven outside "the normal parameters of everyday driving"
So the only thing that i can tell about your car it that it is a warranty problem waiting to happen, because you certainly don't need all of those dress-up things to drive under "the normal parameters of everyday driving" do you. So I suspect that you might be doing things that are not very nice. Have fun. Does it look like rain to you too, does to me.

[JasonCSU]

Originally Posted by RussRamz

I doubt it. This is a common misconception when you feel vibrating brakes following an aggressive use of brakes. The problem is uneven distribution of brake pad materiel on your rotors as a result of not bedding the pads on the rotors properly. All you really need is a paint/rust stripping pad, a power drill, and some time. Following your reconditioning of your rotors, bed in your pads properly and you'll be fine.

This is very true. I have also heard of installing some slightly more aggressive pads which should remove the material left on the rotor from the stock pads. I have never had the problem before, so I have not tried this myself though.

[MarksM]

I have done this many time on my MCoupe's you mount some rotor eater pads for a session or two and the build up goes away. Cooling the brakes after each session seems to help keep the build up off the rotors.

Originally Posted by JasonCSU

This is very true. I have also heard of installing some slightly more aggressive pads which should remove the material left on the rotor from the stock pads. I have never had the problem before, so I have not tried this myself though.

[MarksM]

I can't sing. maybe a film at O'Fest with all of the factor cars would be more effective. Thanks Mark

Originally Posted by swamp2

Great post Max. Fully agree with all of that.

MarksM: I think Max hit it on the head. Shoot a video, post it on youtube. Start the grassroots movement for high view counts at m3post.com and other BMW forums. Mock BMW and the massive hypocrisy and contradiction of promoting a sports car but then punishing one for using it. I have a decent (consumer grade, not pro) video camera and would be happy to let you borrow it for putting something together. Not sure I'm much of a funny video clip producer...

Remember the story about the angry airline passenger who really mounted some terrible PR against the airline on youtube. He might have cost the airline $180M: http://blogs.dovetailsoftware.com/bl...ines-180m.aspx

More hypocrisy: Look just a couple posts away: BMW M launches M Power Driver’s Cup and M Power Circuit Training. Link.

[BlackLight]

Originally Posted by MN M3

I'm sorry, MaxL, but you aren't "entitled" to drive any car (even a M3, Ferrari, or any other "performance car") any way you wish to and then, when it goes bad, claim that the company is a hypocritical A-hole for denying a warranty claim...

I buy a vehicle with a 8300rpm limit, but if the computer shows it has been taken to that limit in anything but first gear, I will void the vehicle warranty?

I buy a vehicle on the basis of the advertising, that clearly states the 0-60, and top speed capabilities, yet if I want to test those capabilities it will void the warranty?

It is a brown cloud on the horison...

[GewoW]

Originally Posted by BlackLight

I buy a vehicle with a 8300rpm limit, but if the computer shows it has been taken to that limit in anything but first gear, I will void the vehicle warranty?

I buy a vehicle on the basis of the advertising, that clearly states the 0-60, and top speed capabilities, yet if I want to test those capabilities it will void the warranty?

It is a brown cloud on the horison...

8400

[MarksM]

Oh yeah,
As many times as I have asked, to this date, no one will tell me what is wrong with my transmission. All of the codes that the service order shows, are confidential to bMW. Rear bearing? internal bearing? internal gear? squirrel our of it's cage? I just don't know. hiding a mfg defect? HMMMM

[axm]

Originally Posted by MN M3

I'm sorry, MaxL, but you aren't "entitled" to drive any car (even a M3, Ferrari, or any other "performance car") any way you wish to and then, when it goes bad, claim that the company is a hypocritical A-hole for denying a warranty claim. Where, exactly, is the line supposed to be drawn? Regardless of the nature of the car, BMW sold you a STREET car, not a race car. It is required to comply with thousands of rules and regulations, hence their disallowance of warranty claims for things that "abuse" the car, including HPDE's. Do I like it? No, I don't. But, it makes sense, both logically and in the business world. There has to be a bright line - cross it, and no warranty repair. To leave it up to vague impressions made on individual service advisers would open BMW (and every other company) to the opposite claim - that they are being inconsistent and unfair across the board. One person denies a claim - another approves it. There has to be a consistent standard.

I don't think anyone expects BMW to act as pit crew for track events, but something has to be said about doing a single track event at 7/10ths and getting tagged - and being able to do tons on p-cars without issue. Just the mere mention of the track does not automatically justify a label of abuse and blacklist despite not paying for repairs. Porsche has no issues and maintains a very healthy relationship with PCA and even helps out at the track events with their techs..

I have no qualms about paying for wear and tear for minor HPDE track events - or canyon runs which are equally fun - but tagging a car even when they did not completely pay for the repairs is just wrong - and drawing that line at speed limit is insane, given all their advertising on M. M Philosophy - bah!