American Racing Longtube Header Results

[M33too]

Originally Posted by BossManE90

Id be willing to donate $100 to an IMPARTIAL 3rd party to test

Have you done anything worthwhile for this community besides be a keyboard cowboy over the internet? Do you even own a e9x m3? Join date April 2015...perhaps someone that has been banned from this site before?

[dwennerberg]

Sorry for lagging boys. Super slammed at work. I will start a new thread and post the DRFs.
And I will email the people that pmed me.

[Patrón]

Originally Posted by M33too

Have you done anything worthwhile for this community besides be a keyboard cowboy over the internet? Do you even own a e9x m3? Join date April 2015...perhaps someone that has been banned from this site before?

Like sticky, lol.

[Nick ARH]

Originally Posted by 81bear

Nick... So we are all clear, when you say "headers", you are referring to your header system (headers + x-pipe). If that is the case I assume your avg. 25 RWHP claim will work as follows:

Stock car with full Akra Evo system will see a 25 rwhp increase by swapping the stock headers and Akra xpipe for the ARH header system (headers + xipe). Do I have it right?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. It could vary higher or lower slightly but I believe 25 will be the average gain. It should make even more proper tuned. We could not tune the A/F on our prototype car. We could not get it to go any leaner than 11.2 after 7000 rpm. We needed a much better fan than what we had. An NA car going 160 MPH on the rollers needs air and we were not supplying enough.
To say I'm anxious to see what'll happen with power when the engine can actually breathe is an understatement.

Nick.

[Nick ARH]

Originally Posted by ///Mint

Nick's headers are long enough to delete the primary cats if I understand correctly right? And we all know deleting our primary cats with STOCK headers will gain 25-30hp, which telling us the gain from Nick's headers are only about 15-20hp? I don't understand why Nick keeps avoiding to speak out on this.

Our headers do delete the stock primary cats. In fact, every modern set of long tubes does the very same thing. But removing the factory primary cats alone will not net 25-30 RWHP. I say this with all due respect to those that believe that. If you told me 7-8 RWHP I'd say ok based on all testing we've done. We offer 200 cell metallic cats for all our applications and although they flow 2-1/2 times better than stock cats, burdened with a much greater cell count, they're only 3-4 RWHP better and most of that is in the upper rpm range.
Deleting our cats from our M3 system with X-Pipe may produce another 5 RWHP gains at peak on an NA car.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by ///Mint

Nick's headers are long enough to delete the primary cats if I understand correctly right? And we all know deleting our primary cats with STOCK headers will gain 25-30hp, which telling us the gain from Nick's headers are only about 15-20hp? I don't understand why Nick keeps avoiding to speak out on this.

There's a couple of explanations:
1) The claim was 45-49 whp gain, on a stock car with high flow cats and no tune. Originally, there was no mention of even an axle-back exhaust. That fact that the car wasn't stock and had an axle-back exhaust crept into the story a few days later.
2) m3london was sent to the forums to post that cat delete and x-pipe don't make much power: 8-10 whp max. That left the remaining 35-39 whp for all headers. As you said, we all know that catless and xpipe mods are some of the best, giving 25-30 whp gains all by themselves.

So now it's pretty hard to walk it back to the point where the numbers and the story will add up.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by BossManE90

we should start a gofundme account to get a set of these out an impartial 3rd party and settle it

I'll fund it all myself if Nick will offer a double money back guarantee if it fails to make stated power. So let's define stated power: Corsa axle-back exhaust on otherwise bone stock car as the baseline.

I'll dyno on both Dynapack and Dynojet and we'll average the results. I'll use my standard dyno stress test with the same number of runs and the same cool-down period as I always use. Nothing I do here would be differently than any of the other 40-50+ M3's I've dyno'd. I'll use the same gear I always use. I'll data log with the same parameters I always use. I'll film it like I do all of my dyno days, and make the video footage available on youtube without any edits or splices (same as I have done on previous controlled tests). All of the files will be available with original timestamps available for download through the Dyno Database.

Headers + high-flow cats and no tune should make +45-49 whp. 35whp and more and I'll keep the system. Anything less than 35 whp, and I get double my money back (to help pay for the labor).

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by Nick ARH

Our headers do delete the stock primary cats. In fact, every modern set of long tubes does the very same thing. But removing the factory primary cats alone will not net 25-30 RWHP. I say this with all due respect to those that believe that. If you told me 7-8 RWHP I'd say ok based on all testing we've done. We offer 200 cell metallic cats for all our applications and although they flow 2-1/2 times better than stock cats, burdened with a much greater cell count, they're only 3-4 RWHP better and most of that is in the upper rpm range.
Deleting our cats from our M3 system with X-Pipe may produce another 5 RWHP gains at peak on an NA car.

I think you're going to need a flack jacket from others. The gains from a primary (and both) CAT delete have been very well established through many people and dyno's. Maybe when I get some time in the next few days, I'll look up the entries in the Dyno Database that have documented this. In the meantime, you might want to take a look here for future reference:

http://www.s65dynos.com

[Nick ARH]

Originally Posted by regular guy

There's a couple of explanations:
1) The claim was 45-49 whp gain, on a stock car with high flow cats and no tune. Originally, there was no mention of even an axle-back exhaust. That fact that the car wasn't stock and had an axle-back exhaust crept into the story a few days later.
2) m3london was sent to the forums to post that cat delete and x-pipe don't make much power: 8-10 whp max. That left the remaining 35-39 whp for all headers. As you said, we all know that catless and xpipe mods are some of the best, giving 25-30 whp gains all by themselves.

So now it's pretty hard to walk it back to the point where the numbers and the story will add up.

I recommend going back and looking. From the very beginning I mentioned M3london's car had a Corsa axle back. It was replaced by our axle back as part of the complete system we installed. Not sure why that matters anyway. Other than sound, I don't believe there's any HP in the mufflers. If there was it would be a disadvantage to our testing anyway.

I have no idea what you think I'm walking back on. My claim stands, my complete system will produce a "minimum" 40 RWHP when replacing the stock system. If you already have the cats deleted and you have a properly made X-Pipe similar to ours, you can expect an average of 25 RWHP. As a side note, placement of the X-Pipe is more critical than some think. It changes, to a certain degree, where the X becomes effective to a lower rpm range the closer it is to the engine. This is why every header system we offer has the X located as far forward as possible.

Regular Guy, this isn't the first or last time our test results and subsequent power gains were questioned. It's been happening for years, especially when we move into a market that's unfamiliar with ARH. Believe me, I take great pleasure in seeing our claims validated independently while seeing all the naysayers silenced. (That's also been happening for years by the way).
I have absolutely no desire to lie to anyone about what we're offering. Doing so will bite you in the ass EVERY TIME. I also don't have any desire to send my system to someone I don't know, whom may have an agenda, and pay them double if he doesn't see the desired results. With all due respect, I don't know you. I say man up, buy a system and test it. Your satisfaction is guaranteed. You could also wait until more testing is done by others. We're shipping systems and those folks, I'm sure, will be posting here.

Nick

[Sered]

Originally Posted by Nick ARH

I recommend going back and looking. From the very beginning I mentioned M3london's car had a Corsa axle back. It was replaced by our axle back as part of the complete system we installed. Not sure why that matters anyway. Other than sound, I don't believe there's any HP in the mufflers. If there was it would be a disadvantage to our testing anyway.

I have no idea what you think I'm walking back on. My claim stands, my complete system will produce a "minimum" 40 RWHP when replacing the stock system. If you already have the cats deleted and you have a properly made X-Pipe similar to ours, you can expect an average of 25 RWHP. As a side note, placement of the X-Pipe is more critical than some think. It changes, to a certain degree, where the X becomes effective to a lower rpm range the closer it is to the engine. This is why every header system we offer has the X located as far forward as possible.

Regular Guy, this isn't the first or last time our test results and subsequent power gains were questioned. It's been happening for years, especially when we move into a market that's unfamiliar with ARH. Believe me, I take great pleasure in seeing our claims validated independently while seeing all the naysayers silenced. (That's also been happening for years by the way).
I have absolutely no desire to lie to anyone about what we're offering. Doing so will bite you in the ass EVERY TIME. I also don't have any desire to send my system to someone I don't know, whom may have an agenda, and pay them double if he doesn't see the desired results. With all due respect, I don't know you. I say man up, buy a system and test it. Your satisfaction is guaranteed. You could also wait until more testing is done by others. We're shipping systems and those folks, I'm sure, will be posting here.

Nick

Most of the kids here don't really know or understand all that much when it comes to performance cars. They generally know how to digest whatever the vendor du jour tells them and then take it as gospel. There's a few smarter ones, but they've not had much exposure to other platforms outside of BMW and don't realize how different it is.

LTs on nearly every platform I've ever seen, end up replacing the primary cats. Normal performance enthusiasts know this. It kind of took me aback when people here began claiming you were 'walking back' or claiming you had something to hide because you didn't mention the primary cat replacement explicitly. Looking at the pictures makes it obvious. They also don't know the ARH name and how well established it is in actual performance circles.

[Pro-AM3]

Originally Posted by regular guy

I'll fund it all myself if Nick will offer a double money back guarantee if it fails to make stated power. So let's define stated power: Corsa axle-back exhaust on otherwise bone stock car as the baseline.

I'll dyno on both Dynapack and Dynojet and we'll average the results. I'll use my standard dyno stress test with the same number of runs and the same cool-down period as I always use. Nothing I do here would be differently than any of the other 40-50+ M3's I've dyno'd. I'll use the same gear I always use. I'll data log with the same parameters I always use. I'll film it like I do all of my dyno days, and make the video footage available on youtube without any edits or splices (same as I have done on previous controlled tests). All of the files will be available with original timestamps available for download through the Dyno Database.

Headers + high-flow cats and no tune should make +45-49 whp. 35whp and more and I'll keep the system. Anything less than 35 whp, and I get double my money back (to help pay for the labor).

Sounds viable to me. Like i said, im in for $100 at least. Im tired of dirty shops manipulating data and claiming they have nothing at stake, when they have tried to circumvent vendorship rules every chance they can.

Originally Posted by M33too

Have you done anything worthwhile for this community besides be a keyboard cowboy over the internet? Do you even own a e9x m3? Join date April 2015...perhaps someone that has been banned from this site before?

When can we expect to see all the runs and boost logs from your impartial trial? Until you provide all of that, i dont see what you have provided to the community. You pushed 10 psi, awesome, not the first, you ran an ice tank, awesome, not the first. You ran ARH headers and hid the most important factors.. WHY?

[s85e90]

Originally Posted by BossManE90

Sounds viable to me. Like i said, im in for $100 at least. Im tired of dirty shops manipulating data and claiming they have nothing at stake, when they have tried to circumvent vendorship rules every chance they can.



When can we expect to see all the runs and boost logs from your impartial trial? Until you provide all of that, i dont see what you have provided to the community. You pushed 10 psi, awesome, not the first, you ran an ice tank, awesome, not the first. You ran ARH headers and hid the most important factors.. WHY?

If Nick guarantees, why not just buy your own set ?

This whole post has proved the mentality of this site. People are attacking from all angles, hanging on each word that was said/written. If you thought that the long tubes worked with a stock x pipe then you guys are all fools.

I have never been on a forum where everyone attacks each other and sorry to say it, but I don't think half of you are even capable to work on a car.

[s85e90]

Originally Posted by regular guy

I'll fund it all myself if Nick will offer a double money back guarantee if it fails to make stated power. So let's define stated power: Corsa axle-back exhaust on otherwise bone stock car as the baseline.

I'll dyno on both Dynapack and Dynojet and we'll average the results. I'll use my standard dyno stress test with the same number of runs and the same cool-down period as I always use. Nothing I do here would be differently than any of the other 40-50+ M3's I've dyno'd. I'll use the same gear I always use. I'll data log with the same parameters I always use. I'll film it like I do all of my dyno days, and make the video footage available on youtube without any edits or splices (same as I have done on previous controlled tests). All of the files will be available with original timestamps available for download through the Dyno Database.

Headers + high-flow cats and no tune should make +45-49 whp. 35whp and more and I'll keep the system. Anything less than 35 whp, and I get double my money back (to help pay for the labor).

Jeez, give it a rest. I like you, but you need to step away from reading and maybe start doing some real world wrenching. Your voice is louder than your mechanical abilites.

[W///]

Originally Posted by s85e90

If Nick guarantees, why not just buy your own set ?

This whole post has proved the mentality of this site. People are attacking from all angles, hanging on each word that was said/written. If you thought that the long tubes worked with a stock x pipe then you guys are all fools.

I have never been on a forum where everyone attacks each other and sorry to say it, but I don't think half of you are even capable to work on a car.

Well that doesn't come off as snobby at all....

If anything, I think this forum is pretty decently civilized compared to some others that I have seen.

Not that I'm all that interested in this product for the current price, but I don't think it's too much to ask for 100% transparency. There have been so many instances of over promising and under delivering (not saying that this product is the case though).

[MPowerZ32]

I don't think AHR is trying to hide anything. I don't know why people on this site are overly critical of EVERYTHING. Because we've been abused by empty promises? I don't know... Sometimes people are posting purely just to pick a fight or self ego stroking. Why can't we wait for the results to be posted? If everyone is so big on data, why are we assuming things before the data become available?

[gouda-buddh]

Originally Posted by MPowerZ32

I don't think AHR is trying to hide anything. I don't know why people on this site are overly critical of EVERYTHING. Because we've been abused by empty promises? I don't know... Sometimes people are posting purely just to pick a fight or self ego stroking. Why can't we wait for the results to be posted? If everyone is so big on data, why are we assuming things before the data become available?

[Pro-AM3]

Originally Posted by s85e90

If Nick guarantees, why not just buy your own set ?

This whole post has proved the mentality of this site. People are attacking from all angles, hanging on each word that was said/written. If you thought that the long tubes worked with a stock x pipe then you guys are all fools.

I have never been on a forum where everyone attacks each other and sorry to say it, but I don't think half of you are even capable to work on a car.

Did you buy a set yet? No? Why not? he guarantees it. you will get all of your costs back right? But what about time and effort, does he reimburse for that as Regular Guy brought up?

Im not even sayng do anything for free. Im saying lets get a collective going here for RG to prove or disprove it.

He is the perfect man to do it. He has not vested interest, yet the ability to collect and organize the information. Im also sure he has the connections to get the labor and dyno time comped. Its win/win for everyone.

You dont have to agree with what he has concluded from his data, but he always presented it. He presents the information as it is for one to draw their own conclusions

3 different companies failed to show quantifiable gains, so we should trust the 4th blindly? YOU are what makes the BMW scene intolerable, "its only money"

An "almost" impartial "almost" vendor "tried"to show data, but the dyno isnt calibrated, the numbers are way off previous, and the tuner has a long standing friendship with ARH. Im sorry, but thats the absolute opposite of impartiality.

Lets just get this done. the N54 crowd funds ECU/TCU programming, but I suppose us ///M people are too proud to do the same

[s85e90]

Originally Posted by W///

Well that doesn't come off as snobby at all....

If anything, I think this forum is pretty decently civilized compared to some others that I have seen.

Not that I'm all that interested in this product for the current price, but I don't think it's too much to ask for 100% transparency. There have been so many instances of over promising and under delivering (not saying that this product is the case though).

It sounds snobby? Oh well. You should visit other forums, where people commend others for working on their own stuff, building their own exhaust to avoid the high prices/taxes for having an expensive car and generally help each other rather than try and bring others down. The BMW mentality rings true over here. It's sad that this should be a community to bring people together and not attack everyone.

I mean, cmon. Everyone here is a hard ass for dyno plots and multiple charts/graphs/etc, yet these are the same guys who don't wrench on their cars at all. It's very easy to cheerlead from the sidelines rather than be a player.

[s85e90]

Originally Posted by BossManE90

Did you buy a set yet? No? Why not? he guarantees it. you will get all of your costs back right? But what about time and effort, does he reimburse for that as Regular Guy brought up?

Im not even sayng do anything for free. Im saying lets get a collective going here for RG to prove or disprove it.

he is the perfect man to do it. He has not vestedt interest, yet the ability to o=collect and organize the information. Im also sure he has the connections to get the labor and dyno time comped. ts win/win for everyone.

3 different companies failed to show quantifiable gains, so we should trust the 4th blindly? YOU are what makes the BMW scene intolerable, "its only money"

An almost impartial almost vendor tried to show data, but the dyno isnt calibrated, the numbers are way off previous, and the tuner has a long standing friendship with ARH. Im orry, but thats the absolute opposite of impartiality.

Lets just get this done. the N54 crowd funds ECU/TCU programming, but I suppose us ///M people are too proud to do the same

I haven't bought a set b/c:

1. too much $$$
2. I bought a 911 turbo to build and drive so the M3 is being sold/parted out.

[s85e90]

Originally Posted by BossManE90

Did you buy a set yet? No? Why not? he guarantees it. you will get all of your costs back right? But what about time and effort, does he reimburse for that as Regular Guy brought up?

Im not even sayng do anything for free. Im saying lets get a collective going here for RG to prove or disprove it.

he is the perfect man to do it. He has not vestedt interest, yet the ability to o=collect and organize the information. Im also sure he has the connections to get the labor and dyno time comped. ts win/win for everyone.

3 different companies failed to show quantifiable gains, so we should trust the 4th blindly? YOU are what makes the BMW scene intolerable, "its only money"

An almost impartial almost vendor tried to show data, but the dyno isnt calibrated, the numbers are way off previous, and the tuner has a long standing friendship with ARH. Im orry, but thats the absolute opposite of impartiality.

Lets just get this done. the N54 crowd funds ECU/TCU programming, but I suppose us ///M people are too proud to do the same

Rather than preach, be the change you wish to see!

[Pro-AM3]

Originally Posted by s85e90

I haven't bought a set b/c:

1. too much $$$
2. I bought a 911 turbo to build and drive so the M3 is being sold/parted out.

But you get the $$ if you dont get the gains.. That was your main point..

Originally Posted by s85e90

Rather than preach, be the change you wish to see!

So you're saying you're ordering a set right now then, we will wait for results!

[whats77inaname]

So, hey, uhm, any word on that TT kit from Gintani?

Ooops, wrong thread.