BMW M3 vs Porsche Carrera which is Quicker

[alms21]

Originally Posted by shift@red

I agree with you. Base 911=drivers race; 997S=not even close.

Why is it so hard for people to concede that they dont have the fastest, best handling car?

Are you saying a 997.2 C2S is the fastest best handling car out there?

[TLud]

Originally Posted by alms21

Are you saying a 997.2 C2S is the fastest best handling car out there?

No, just that the M3 isn't.

[alms21]

For the life of me I don't understand why people try to compare a 2DR sportscar to a GT car.

I'll be selling my 997S in early Spring to purchase an E92 M3 because I need something that is daily driveable and one where I have a place to stick my golf clubs, shotgun, etc. The 997S, while a great car, serves a different purpose than an E92M3.

There is a reason why many experts have said that the E92M3 offers the best of both worlds when it comes to a performance/luxury car.

[alms21]

Originally Posted by TLud

No, just that the M3 isn't.

My comment was not said in jest. I seriously was trying to understand what the poster meant.

There are fanbois all over the place and drive all different types of cars (BMW, MB, Porsche, Vette, Viper, GTR) that think they are driving the end all, be all of automobiles. It's actually quite sickening.

[TLud]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Honestly, money being no object, i think the 911 turbo is FAR better at combining (supercar) performance and luxury. and its more fun to drive IMO and is still more of a drivers car. on a budget, yes, the m3 is better than its rivals, but beyond its price range, it pails in comparison to some of the other options out there (again, money no object).

Agree 100%. I love that I can shove a 6 ft ladder or my bikes into the back of my E92 M3, which is why I don't have a Cayman S right now. I'd give up some of that practicality in a heartbeat for a 997.2TT if it weren't more than I feel comfortable spending right now.

[alms21]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Honestly, money being no object, i think the 911 turbo is FAR better at combining (supercar) performance and luxury. and its more fun to drive IMO and is still more of a drivers car. on a budget, yes, the m3 is better than its rivals, but beyond its price range, it pails in comparison to some of the other options out there (again, money no object).
And again, I agree, while the BASE 997 may be close in straight line to an m3 dct, beyond that they are in different leagues and should not be compared. Yet, some people NEED to phsycologically justify why they didnt buy/couldnt afford a 911 so they do in in this way.
Did you know that the e92 m3 with dct is faster in a straight line than a 2000 360 modena? That was a 200K+ car.
And, yes, that was a joke but this would be the type of reasoning an m3 owner migh use to justify their purchase. As dumb as it sounds, this is reality.

Any 911 is way too cramped for a DD IMHO and the noise inside the cabin is significantly louder than an E92M3. Turbo or not still does not change the fact that you have to shove golf clubs, etc. in the back seat too.

I love the Porsche 911 but it just is not a realistic daily driver to me. I see myself getting a 993S as a weekend car shortly after I make the change to an E92M3. I seriously want a CLKAMG63 Black Series but am real skeptical that it would be a good enough DD for me???

[alms21]

Originally Posted by shift@red

I bet you any money youll be looking to trade the m3 in after about 2-3 months of driving it. Not that you got the 911 that long ago. Youll bore of the m3 quickly and move onto something else.

I think the e92 m3 is a great daily driver, but its a little too soft for me as a DD. I need a little more 'focus' in a car. I owned a couple e46 m3s, and those were a bit too soft for me as well, not to mention got BORING, make that very boring, very quick. Thats how I got into the Z4M. Its the best drivers car BMW has brought over to the US IMO, not to mention funnest and most thrilling to drive IMHO. It is probably the closest thing to a 911/Cayman S feel you will get from BMW. And it rare too! There are only a little over 1800 coupes in the country and only about 3-4K of the verts. Definately not a car you see often.

I can appeciate that. My taste is a little different. I don't find the Z4M appealing visually. I have to have a car that once I park it, I turn around to look at it again before entering the building. I just think the E92M3 is the best option for me at this juncture from a price, DD/performance standpoint.

I just turned 40.....maybe i need to look for an SL Benz

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

When I had a 997.2 C2S with PDK for a day, subjectively it didn't any faster than my M3 in a straight line

Originally Posted by photogS

It doesn't matter how it feels. Heck, Honda S2000 feels faster then M3.
997.2 C2S murders M3 in every performance category

Hmmm you have a very strange idea of what counts as the "997.2 C2S murder[ing] the M3.

Discipline............................ M3 (E92) -----997 Carrera S (2008 facelift)
0-100 km/h acceleration................. 4.6----------- 4.4
0-160 km/h acceleration................. 9.4------------9.5
0-200 km/h acceleration ................15.2 ----------14.5

The performance figures amply substantiate my point that there isn't much different in performance. I drove the two back to back...my car to the Porsche dealership, a 2009 C2S for the whole day and then my car back home and I totally stand by my comment, in the range of speeds that you mostly drive the 997 it simply doesn't feel any faster.
On m3torque there is a poster who went from an E92 M3 to a new 2009 C2S and he didn't find it felt any faster than his M3 either.

[footie]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Hmmm you have a very strange idea of what counts as the "997.2 C2S murder[ing] the M3.

Discipline............................ M3 (E92) -----997 Carrera S (2008 facelift)
0-100 km/h acceleration................. 4.6----------- 4.4
0-160 km/h acceleration................. 9.4------------9.5
0-200 km/h acceleration ................15.2 ----------14.5

The performance figures amply substantiate my point that there isn't much different in performance. I drove the two back to back...my car to the Porsche dealership, a 2009 C2S for the whole day and then my car back home and I totally stand by my comment, in the range of speeds that you mostly drive the 997 it simply doesn't feel any faster.
On m3torque there is a poster who went from an E92 M3 to a new 2009 C2S and he didn't find it felt any faster than his M3 either.

Up to 100mph it isn't really going to be that noticeable, but beyond that point the is comfortably quicker and if it's equipped with PDK and Sport Chrono then you could see a very low 4 second run and a 9 second to 60 and 100 respectively.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by footie

Up to 100mph it isn't really going to be that noticeable, but beyond that point the is comfortably quicker and if it's equipped with PDK and Sport Chrono then you could see a very low 4 second run and a 9 second to 60 and 100 respectively.

The C2S has a major traction advantage off the line over the M3 which helps its times not that times are everything...in real world straight line acceleration they are next but impossible to tell apart, except for the shorter rev range of the 997. Both cars have their +s and -s...the smooth road handling of the 997 is stunning while its rough road ride is jittery, annoying and tiring, the 997 I drove (a 2009 2000 miler) was not as well built as the BMW sqeaking and rattling like a 10 year old ford with no boot space and effectively 2 seats.
For the same money I would chose the 997 if I didn't need 4 seats occasionally..but for the price premium the M3 makes far more sense.
The 997 is the "heart" choice while the M3 is the "head" choice

[SenorFunkyPants]

Fair enough...there is no convincing a fanbois zealot so no point in trying.

[footie]

Originally Posted by shift@red

As far as build quality goes. Porsche is far above and beyond BMW. Thats dept is not even close. Porsches fit and finish and overall quality are known to be some of the best in the business and superior to BMWs.
Thats why BMW is BELOW industry average here in the US for dependability and initial car quality while Porsche sits atop the German car makers.
Every single e9X m3 i have driven also had rattles, whether it was the vert top, or the side slide pockets on the coupe, or the shitty feel of the windshield washers when you are on the clutch. Its not nearly as well made as a Porsche, hands down.

I don't actually agree here about build quality, or should I say that I don't agree that all of Porsche's build quality is better. Mechanically I would say that Porsche are probably top of their game in this, no other brand can take the same abuse and still prove to be as reliable, but interior quality and some of the materials used aren't any better and in some cases are sub-standard to BMW. The only Porsche which I feels is superior in every way is the Panamera, but the rest are below what I expect given the price and definitely below Audi and probably BMW's better products as well.

As for the M3, I had mine for a whole year and never once did it rattle or squeak, so either I was luck or your experiences have been the exception to the rule.

[footie]

I would agree that the leather in general is of a higher standard than BMW (it's actually the same spec as Audi use in their S and RS models), most Porsches come pre-selected with full leather and for good reason, the non full leather cars look pitiful with poorly simulated leather effect dash and door capping, the problem is full leather trim gives the appearance that it's better but if you look closer on less touched panels and switches you will find that Porsche don't use the best. The switchgear in general is of a standard below Audi and BMW, I actually find the indicator stalks and other switchgear on the BMW to be better than Porsche and quite a few of the interior panels to be of better quality materials.

BMW's interior design is stark which in a way could give the feeling that it's not got the same quality, being more functional to luxurious but it's actually very well put together, I just happen to not like their design, finding other brands offering more excitement when sat behind the wheel.

As for the Panamera, it probably is one of the better built interior at the moment, it's probably closer in feel of quality to that of a Bentley but with sportier overtones.

[footie]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Ill take a little more road noise with better quality interior and materials anyday. Have you ever driven a Ferrari? Its the same as being in a 911/Cayman as far as noise, but that doesnt mean its interior also isnt top notch.
Another thing about quality. BMW paint isnt all that great these day anymore either. Their cars have so much orange peel its almost embarassing.

I've driven quite a few Ferrari cars over the years, they are great cars from a mechanical perspective and to drive but I didn't feel they were given the same attention to the quality of the electronic or fit and finish. Yes they are noisy but it's a mechanical noise that is to be enjoyed instead of endured. I actually switched from a Boxster just because I couldn't stand the drone at motorway speeds, it gave me a sore head constantly, the Cayman is a little better but I couldn't go back to living with one on a daily basis, probably my age has something to do with that.

I think most here would complain about the paint finish on their BMW cars, lots of orange peel and extremely smooth which makes them more prone to stone chips and scratches. I think it's the process they use more so than the quality of their bodyshop.

[SUB-ZERO]

Originally Posted by shift@red

As far as build quality goes. Porsche is far above and beyond BMW. Thats dept is not even close. Porsches fit and finish and overall quality are known to be some of the best in the business and superior to BMWs.
Thats why BMW is BELOW industry average here in the US for dependability and initial car quality while Porsche sits atop the German car makers.
Every single e9X m3 i have driven also had rattles, whether it was the vert top, or the side slide pockets on the coupe, or the shitty feel of the windshield washers when you are on the clutch. Its not nearly as well made as a Porsche, hands down.

I bet my M3 will still smoke you Gayman S...LOL! Just kidding. It is all in the name of fun. My girlfriend has a Cayman S and I love to drive it.

-SZ

[SUB-ZERO]

Originally Posted by shift@red

My point exactly. Porsche puts time into the interior and their materials, but they are more focused on the engineering of the car and the engine, suspension. Their interiors are some of the best, and only looks like they are going to kick it up a notch or two with the way they have shown in the Panamera.

Porsche does have a nice interior, if you pay the extra $$$$ for the leather. A base 911 interior is not as nice as the base M3 leather interior, IMO.

Just to get the center console area (near the radio) in leather was like $800 for a 911.

Essentially, I think a Porsche's interior is not as nice as the M3s in terms of gadgetry and overall comfort. There is a trade off between overall performance and comfort and many are willing to sacrifice; you can always have an M3 and a GT3 for the best of both worlds.

The two cars (M3 and 911) definitely overlap in many performance aspects as they due in luxury, name recognition, heritage, build quality, etc. However, like previously stated, Porsche edges out BMW in terms of performance while BMW edges out Porsche in terms of overall luxury and comfort.

To say one is better than the other is not really relevant; in a way, it is like comparing apples to oranges. Normally, the more gadgetry a car has, the more issues one may encounter over time. A Porsche is essentially a great chassis, engine and interior. Most BMWs and Mercedes also have the aforementioned qualities but with an amount of electronics that would give the Space Shuttle a run for it's money; over time, electronic components break down and that is one of the reasons why Porsche's rank higher in terms of overall quality than say BMW and Mercedes.

My old commuter car, a Hyundai Accent, rated really high too. Mostly because it was just an engine with wheels and not because it was an engineering marvel built using the latest manufacturing processes.....get my drift.

Anyways..just my two cents..

-SZ

[footie]

I'm only telling you what I know to be true, Porsche until very recently used parts from VAG's parts bin that they hadn't used for a few years. Some may well feel that it's good enough for the job but I was only saying that it's switchgear isn't of the standard that Audi and BMW use (in general). The Panamera is different and to anyone who has sat in or driven one you will instantly notice this, it's THAT apparent.

The steering wheel on BMW cars is something I can relate too, I didn't like the thickness of the M3 wheel but did get use to it after time, but I'm glad to be back to a wheel which isn't quite as thick. I actually find the Porsche wheel to be a little too thin for my liking but each to their own.

When the fit and finish is body panels and mechanical then I'm wholeheartedly in agreement but I will maintain that prior to the Panamera the rest don't have the best interior parts, in fact I would put a £25K Audi TT ahead of a £65K Porsche for interior quality and that includes everything that's in the interior.

[SUB-ZERO]

Originally Posted by footie

I'm only telling you what I know to be true, Porsche until very recently used parts from VAG's parts bin that they hadn't used for a few years. Some may well feel that it's good enough for the job but I was only saying that it's switchgear isn't of the standard that Audi and BMW use (in general). The Panamera is different and to anyone who has sat in or driven one you will instantly notice this, it's THAT apparent.

The steering wheel on BMW cars is something I can relate too, I didn't like the thickness of the M3 wheel but did get use to it after time, but I'm glad to be back to a wheel which isn't quite as thick. I actually find the Porsche wheel to be a little too thin for my liking but each to their own.

When the fit and finish is body panels and mechanical then I'm wholeheartedly in agreement but I will maintain that prior to the Panamera the rest don't have the best interior parts, in fact I would put a £25K Audi TT ahead of a £65K Porsche for interior quality and that includes everything that's in the interior.

+1

[photogS]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Hmmm you have a very strange idea of what counts as the "997.2 C2S murder[ing] the M3.

You seem fixated on straight line figures, but that's OK.
I'm assuming you have seen the video where modded M3 DCT gets raped by stock 997.2 C2S PDK
That is not even close, even though the M3 get a lead when they start.
997.2 C2S runs 1/4 @ 11.7s
Same on the track - not even close.

Find one to race you, but not some 60 year old guy that cannot drive and has the car as a status symbol. Find someone that can actually drive a 911. I bet they'll rape you.

I don't care what feels faster, I care what IS faster. Like I said, S2000 feels faster then M3 (probably because that vtec engine revving to stratosphere gives the impression of going super fast).

I think your opinion may come from very limited experience with a 911, or judging your post in which you compare dct to pdk maybe the car you got was a dud?
You're possibly the only person (besides fanbois but who takes them seriously) not rating pdk above the dct

M3 is not in the same league performance wise, and it shouldn't be. It's a sporty sedan/coupe and it feels like one. IMO they shouldn't be compared.
Before I sold the CS and could compare the two, every time I jumped back into M3 it felt like a Buick. Seriously, it felt closer to the E350 then to the Cayman

I like M3 but I'm not a fanboi. I recognize the car for what it is. It is NOT a sports car, no matter how many want to believe it. It's a capable car, with a back seat and some amenities that are nice for a dd. That's all.
In road feel, brake feel and 'fun to drive' factor 997 is in a different class and M3 is simply boring in comparison, sorry to say.
I have nothing to prove, I don't own a 911 but I own M3. Don't have any stocks in Porsche either

BTW, I think 997 is well worth the premium over the M3, but that is always subjective. I bet some Z06 owners don't see any value in the M3 either (those two shouldn't be compared IMO, but we know sometimes they are)

[SUB-ZERO]

Originally Posted by photogS

You seem fixated on straight line figures, but that's OK.
I'm assuming you have seen the video where modded M3 DCT gets raped by stock 997.2 C2S PDK
That is not even close, even though the M3 get a lead when they start.
997.2 C2S runs 1/4 @ 11.7s
Same on the track - not even close.

Find one to race you, but not some 60 year old guy that cannot drive and has the car as a status symbol. Find someone that can actually drive a 911. I bet they'll rape you.

I don't care what feels faster, I care what IS faster. Like I said, S2000 feels faster then M3 (probably because that vtec engine revving to stratosphere gives the impression of going super fast).

I think your opinion may come from very limited experience with a 911, or judging your post in which you compare dct to pdk maybe the car you got was a dud?
You're possibly the only person (besides fanbois but who takes them seriously) not rating pdk above the dct

M3 is not in the same league performance wise, and it shouldn't be. It's a sporty sedan/coupe and it feels like one. IMO they shouldn't be compared.
Before I sold the CS and could compare the two, every time I jumped back into M3 it felt like a Buick. Seriously, it felt closer to the E350 then to the Cayman

I like M3 but I'm not a fanboi. I recognize the car for what it is. It is NOT a sports car, no matter how many want to believe it. It's a capable car, with a back seat and some amenities that are nice for a dd. That's all.
In road feel, brake feel and 'fun to drive' factor 997 is in a different class and M3 is simply boring in comparison, sorry to say.
I have nothing to prove, I don't own a 911 but I own M3. Don't have any stocks in Porsche either

BTW, I think 997 is well worth the premium over the M3, but that is always subjective. I bet some Z06 owners don't see any value in the M3 either (those two shouldn't be compared IMO, but we know sometimes they are)

When I drive my buddies Miata and then get in my M3, it also feels like a Buick; so the Miata must be better.

Give me a break. Porsches are nice performers but they don't rape an M3; especially not an 911. The 911S slightly outperforms the M3 in real-world driving situation but it should for the extra $30-$50k ($58k-$70k vs $85k-$100k+).

To me, the M3 is a better executed package that combines breath-taking performance, beauty and enough comfort for a DD; yet capable enough for the occasional track day.

Unless you are driving a GT2 or GT3, nobody looks twice at 911 or 911S; at least not in Northern VA and DC.

While I agree with some of your points, you seem to be giving Porsche too much credit.

I park my e92 M3 next to a 911 S every night so I constantly compare the look, stance and aggressiveness of both cars. Both the 911S owner and I agree, the M3 looks better.

I have driven 911s several times and sit in one every time the owner is washing it (we normally have the same wash/detail cycle), the M3 is MUCH nicer inside than the 911 S.

-SZ

[warzilla]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

For the same money I would chose the 997 if I didn't need 4 seats occasionally..but for the price premium the M3 makes far more sense.
The 997 is the "heart" choice while the M3 is the "head" choice

+1

Was about to buy a 06 997.1s but got the 08 M3 instead. Totally happy with the M3. Really depends on what people need.

Personally for me, I couldn't use the 997.1s as a DD. But as a secondary car, would get the 997 in a heartbeat.

[warzilla]

Originally Posted by shift@red

And if the performance on the street doesnt make a difference to you, you should have bought a 335 coupe, because even on the street the 997S is a much better performer. Like we all keep saying, its not close, and on a track it just that much more apparent that they are in different leagues.

I had a 335i coupe and now the M3 coupe. There is a huge difference between the two.

Personally, I think this thread is a waste cause both the 997 and M3 are great cars. Either one is great to own. To poo-poo one over the other doesn't make any sense to me.

But I would take either one over a Cayman S anyday, anyplace, anytime.