ESS vs VF vs BPM tune

[SROC3]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

Sport+ is crazzzzy from the factory. Like an on/off switch. I usually drive in normal

A lot of our customers tell us that sport+ is much more useable post tune.

I have the BPM tune and Mike is spot on - SPort+ is a big diff from the factory....but i feel it WAY more now with the BPM tune in my car. There are other posters here who have experienced other tunes and say that the BPM tune is still fantastic. My own review is here if you're interested:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...hlight=revelry

I think that at the end of the day, like Mike said, make the choice you are most comfortable with. Part of that research should entail calling and talking to Mike so you can get a good handle on his knowledge base and Customer Service. It's top notch.

Good luck!

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by VF-Engineering

We modify the throttle response in Sport mode only as standard, but we can modify it in Comfort mode by request.

[crazydrummer]

I had an evolve tune on my last m3. Just got a bpm tube done. Beats the evolve tune hands town in every way. Go bpm

[THE TECH]

Originally Posted by crazydrummer

I had an evolve tune on my last m3. Just got a bpm tube done. Beats the evolve tune hands town in every way. Go bpm

[BIGW0RM]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

Like I said twice already in this thread, without data logs including timing, it's all unsubstantiated bs

Data logs or bust. They should be demanded IMO.

I was just asking about this! I'm shocked the m3 world is fine with off the shelf tunes with no logging at all.

When I had my STI with a COBB accessport, there OTS maps knocked like a MF'er using our piss 91 gas. Even when using a 91 map from them. I had knock events, major timing pulled, lean conditions that I saw in my logs many times. That said COBB would read your logs and fine tune there maps for you if you asked for help from them.

Or we would get pro tunes for 1k on a dyno with real time logging going on. That was the only way to go.

I would love a tune but not until its logged for safety. No car is the same, so not all cars will run good on the same tune.

[VF-Engineering]

Thanks for purchasing the Hex Flash, OP!!

Looking forward to hearing what you think.

[and1313]

just installed them 2 days ago. haven't had a chance to dyno it. not that i had a baseline dyno either.

early impression is good though. car feels more responsive and pulls harder. good tune.

[mot]

Numbers and logs please!

[BPMSport]

The MSS6x family DME is target based - meaning that instead of increasing values in a table (i.e for more fuel), you set targets based on RPM vs Load, etc... Load is seen by the DME as 'relative filling'.

On a car with a less sophisticated ECU, you might have 100's in a table designating how much fuel to inject at part load, and increasing those values would inject more fuel. Target based ECU’s are different. Instead of increasing the value in a table for fueling (as an example), you can tell it what AFR to use for your fueling strategy (lambda targeted AIM). The DME will do everything necessary and take inputs from sensors to achieve those targets. It can only try and achieve those targets so much. As an example, if you told it to target an overly rich or overly lean AFR, it would not be able to hit it or would throw fault codes. Regardless, there is enough scaling in part and full load mapping to accurately target appropriate air/fuel ratios.

The M3 stock at redline targets a 12.5 AFR. For reference purposes, 14.7 is considered 'lambda' and is a complete burn of all fuel. The car will try to reach lambda for emissions purposes and for clean burning when cruising and most of the time at part throttle. But at full throttle, it uses a different table for fueling. Anything between 12 and 13 is an acceptable AFR at redline for a NA car. The car uses the pre cat oxygen sensors to correct fuel trims to reach the targeted AFR. Aging or defective oxygen sensors can cause the vehicle to not achieve its targets, increase emissions at the tail pipe, reduce combustion quality, and reduce fuel mileage. The same thing goes for aging spark plugs as well.

Now let's take that understanding of "targets" and move it to ignition timing. And keep in mind, for simplicities sake that an engine needs two things to run - air and fuel. The more oxygen packed (denser) air is, the more "energy" there is for combustion. This is why the car is faster in colder temperatures, because there is more oxygen available for combustion. So before I move on from this, keep in mind that colder/denser air will make more power, and that higher octane resists pre-ignition and detonation (knock). The engine is working its hardest to reach its targeted timing with lower octane gas and in higher temperatures (and elevation/humidity).

The M3 has pretty radical timing targets from the factory. 32 degrees to be exact (at redline and full load). The reason it has such targets is because the knock detection system is not conventional in the sense that it doesn’t 'listen' for knock. Rather, it measures combustion quality and can determine if there was a pre-ignition or detonation event, on each cylinder individually. It even retards timing with adaptations *per cylinder*, and is not always a global pullback.

There are a few things that can be done in the programming to help the DME reach its targeted timing. Now - the ECU has a preprogrammed adaptation limit - which means that it can only pull so much timing. On top of that, even in stock form, many cars will not hit their targeted timing. Yesterday I was dynoing a bone stock M3 on 91 octane, and it was hitting only 25 degrees of timing at redline (logged using the dynos own MAHA tool). If you log these cars on the dyno, you will see that often times the rising intake air temperature is reducing the probability of the car to achieve the set timing targets. This goes back to what I was speaking about before - hotter air ultimately will lead to reduced ignition timing, because there would be pre ignition or detonation events. You can set the timing targets as high as you want, but it won't help anything. Take for example the M3 that was being dynoed - if the targets were set from the factory 32 degrees back down to 26, or even up to 38, it will likely still only be hitting 25 degrees after adapting.

So to sum up this part:
1) The M3's knock detection system is not conventional and doesn't listen for knock. Increasing targets too much (especially at partial load, as there are maps for optimal ignition for torque, ignition presets, etc..) will not help.

2) The part throttle and full throttle ignition targets are only targets - it doesn't mean for a second that the car is actually running or hitting those targets. What does this mean? Means that you could have a tuner set the targets to 40 degrees, and it won't do anything harmful to the engine. It will cause it to be more prone to knock, and then the DME will automatically retard timing to safe levels (up to a certain extent). If you go crazy with it, then you could cause issues.

3) It's best to be realistic when choosing timing targets. I for one keep them near stock because there is no point in increasing them to the point of inducing knock, and then having the car back off ignition from this feedback. When choosing ignition targets, environmental factors are important such as octane, altitude, temperature, humidity. Setting unrealistically high targets might lead to more power in the short run, but it won't be consistent.

4) I've seen pretty racial tunes from others in which timing is targeted at 37 degrees on a bone stock M3 running 91 octane. Will it hurt anything? No. Is it optimal? No. You want targets set that the car can achieve on the street safely and reliably. We also don’t play with “minimum ignition maps” to force timing.

5) Stock cars knock quite a bit at lower relative filling levels - so again - why add timing there? There is no reason to, and in my software tuning, only areas which can achieve higher ignition timing safely are modified.
So we've covered fueling and timing (in a nutshell). What's left in an ECU tune is Vanos changes, torque limits, and feature type changes (redline, top speed, launch assist, etc..)

With respect to the vanos, there are some changes that can be made to increase power and torque delivery, particularly in the midrange and top end. Four main vanos maps - inlet camshaft, exhaust camshaft (two main maps for each, cold and warm). Again, these are targets set in degrees that the DME will try to achieve. Think of targets of "suggestions" in a sense.
Our software has gone through extensive testing on the street, track, and dyno. When our 240E software was released, three cars, an E90, E92, and E93 were logged on the track in 100+ degree ambient temperatures for multiple 25 minute sessions. Oil temperatures on all three cars were 300F (oil gauge all the way to the right). The cars did not flinch or skip a beat.

We've tuned cars all over the world, ranging from climates that see below freezing temperatures to those with 120+ ambient temperatures. Our software is safe, reliable, and tested. We've tuned a few cars for race car drivers and dedicated track cars that see 20+ track days a year. When the cars are healthy and the lap times decrease, we know we've done our job.

The MSS60 DME is a VERY sophisticated control unit which employs two
Motorola MPC563 processors, one controlling ignition, and one controlling injection. It's calculating quite a lot every second to keep the engine running smoothly, so the only way a tune would not be 'safe' is if:

1) The tuner turns off knock control or misfire detection

2) The tuner runs overly aggressive timing targets or ignition presets

3) The tuner does some off the wall programming of targeted vanos position

4) The tuner turns off factory safeguards or masks "faults" to prevent error codes from mapping errors.

5) There is a mistake elsewhere (which will likely just cause limp mode, unless this was removed too).

I'm going to try to find the logs from my last track session. I reviewed them in depth at the time and was pleased with the ECU consistently hitting the set timing targets and targeted vanos position.

So – as a final word in all of this- most tunes should be safe.

Safety and reliability are our primary concern. Second to that is power delivery, drivability, and the overall driving experience. At BPM, we like to take our tuning to the next level to ensure that our hard work here, translates into your driving pleasure wherever you are.

I hope this helps answer some questions out there. Sorry for the long post. I simplified a number of things to make it easier to understand.

Mike

[meko]

Thanks for taking the time to write this up. It's appreciated. I'll be a customer in due time.

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

At BPM, we like to take our tuning to the next level to ensure that our hard work here, translates into your driving pleasure wherever you are.

I hope this helps answer some questions out there. Sorry for the long post. I simplified a number of things to make it easier to understand.

Mike

When you explained to me over Skype it went through one ear and came out the other. Didn't make sense whatsoever. Now I know what you are talking about. Does the "next level ..." above mean there are more goodies coming our way?

[W///]

Thanks for that Mike

[ortho281]

Originally Posted by and1313

just installed them 2 days ago. haven't had a chance to dyno it. not that i had a baseline dyno either.

early impression is good though. car feels more responsive and pulls harder. good tune.

What convinced you to go with the VF Hex Flash? I did the VF Hex Flash when it first came out (EAS) and I'm very pleased with the results!

[BoBBa72]

Originally Posted by meko

Thanks for taking the time to write this up. It's appreciated. I'll be a customer in due time.

+1

[PhoenixRising]

I installed my AA X-Pipe+HFC exhaust last weekend and had Mike @ BPMSport upgrade my tune to Stage II yesterday. I can't say enough about how great the customer service is. Upgrading my car the day before Easter wasn't requested, nor was it expected - but he offered and that is par for the course with BPM. I love the stage II tune. I've only gotten to take the car out once to open her up since the tune but man, THIS is how I imagined this car should drive and sound from the factory.

Not sure what, if anything, I'll be needing to do past these mods. I'm so happy with what I have right now. Still smiling ear to ear anytime I get a chance to take her out.

[and1313]

Originally Posted by ortho281

What convinced you to go with the VF Hex Flash? I did the VF Hex Flash when it first came out (EAS) and I'm very pleased with the results!

I have a friend who just tuned his x5m with vf flash tune. It was awesome and that was enough to tip me to the vf tune side

[ortho281]

Originally Posted by and1313

I have a friend who just tuned his x5m with vf flash tune. It was awesome and that was enough to tip me to the vf tune side

That's cool! Enjoy and keep us posted!

[BuckRodgers]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

The MSS6x family DME is target based - meaning that instead of increasing values in a table (i.e for more fuel), you set targets based on RPM vs Load, etc... Load is seen by the DME as 'relative filling'.

On a car with a less sophisticated ECU, you might have 100's in a table designating how much fuel to inject at part load, and increasing those values would inject more fuel. Target based ECU’s are different. Instead of increasing the value in a table for fueling (as an example), you can tell it what AFR to use for your fueling strategy (lambda targeted AIM). The DME will do everything necessary and take inputs from sensors to achieve those targets. It can only try and achieve those targets so much. As an example, if you told it to target an overly rich or overly lean AFR, it would not be able to hit it or would throw fault codes. Regardless, there is enough scaling in part and full load mapping to accurately target appropriate air/fuel ratios.

The M3 stock at redline targets a 12.5 AFR. For reference purposes, 14.7 is considered 'lambda' and is a complete burn of all fuel. The car will try to reach lambda for emissions purposes and for clean burning when cruising and most of the time at part throttle. But at full throttle, it uses a different table for fueling. Anything between 12 and 13 is an acceptable AFR at redline for a NA car. The car uses the pre cat oxygen sensors to correct fuel trims to reach the targeted AFR. Aging or defective oxygen sensors can cause the vehicle to not achieve its targets, increase emissions at the tail pipe, reduce combustion quality, and reduce fuel mileage. The same thing goes for aging spark plugs as well.

Now let's take that understanding of "targets" and move it to ignition timing. And keep in mind, for simplicities sake that an engine needs two things to run - air and fuel. The more oxygen packed (denser) air is, the more "energy" there is for combustion. This is why the car is faster in colder temperatures, because there is more oxygen available for combustion. So before I move on from this, keep in mind that colder/denser air will make more power, and that higher octane resists pre-ignition and detonation (knock). The engine is working its hardest to reach its targeted timing with lower octane gas and in higher temperatures (and elevation/humidity).

The M3 has pretty radical timing targets from the factory. 32 degrees to be exact (at redline and full load). The reason it has such targets is because the knock detection system is not conventional in the sense that it doesn’t 'listen' for knock. Rather, it measures combustion quality and can determine if there was a pre-ignition or detonation event, on each cylinder individually. It even retards timing with adaptations *per cylinder*, and is not always a global pullback.

There are a few things that can be done in the programming to help the DME reach its targeted timing. Now - the ECU has a preprogrammed adaptation limit - which means that it can only pull so much timing. On top of that, even in stock form, many cars will not hit their targeted timing. Yesterday I was dynoing a bone stock M3 on 91 octane, and it was hitting only 25 degrees of timing at redline (logged using the dynos own MAHA tool). If you log these cars on the dyno, you will see that often times the rising intake air temperature is reducing the probability of the car to achieve the set timing targets. This goes back to what I was speaking about before - hotter air ultimately will lead to reduced ignition timing, because there would be pre ignition or detonation events. You can set the timing targets as high as you want, but it won't help anything. Take for example the M3 that was being dynoed - if the targets were set from the factory 32 degrees back down to 26, or even up to 38, it will likely still only be hitting 25 degrees after adapting.

So to sum up this part:
1) The M3's knock detection system is not conventional and doesn't listen for knock. Increasing targets too much (especially at partial load, as there are maps for optimal ignition for torque, ignition presets, etc..) will not help.

2) The part throttle and full throttle ignition targets are only targets - it doesn't mean for a second that the car is actually running or hitting those targets. What does this mean? Means that you could have a tuner set the targets to 40 degrees, and it won't do anything harmful to the engine. It will cause it to be more prone to knock, and then the DME will automatically retard timing to safe levels (up to a certain extent). If you go crazy with it, then you could cause issues.

3) It's best to be realistic when choosing timing targets. I for one keep them near stock because there is no point in increasing them to the point of inducing knock, and then having the car back off ignition from this feedback. When choosing ignition targets, environmental factors are important such as octane, altitude, temperature, humidity. Setting unrealistically high targets might lead to more power in the short run, but it won't be consistent.

4) I've seen pretty racial tunes from others in which timing is targeted at 37 degrees on a bone stock M3 running 91 octane. Will it hurt anything? No. Is it optimal? No. You want targets set that the car can achieve on the street safely and reliably. We also don’t play with “minimum ignition maps” to force timing.

5) Stock cars knock quite a bit at lower relative filling levels - so again - why add timing there? There is no reason to, and in my software tuning, only areas which can achieve higher ignition timing safely are modified.
So we've covered fueling and timing (in a nutshell). What's left in an ECU tune is Vanos changes, torque limits, and feature type changes (redline, top speed, launch assist, etc..)

With respect to the vanos, there are some changes that can be made to increase power and torque delivery, particularly in the midrange and top end. Four main vanos maps - inlet camshaft, exhaust camshaft (two main maps for each, cold and warm). Again, these are targets set in degrees that the DME will try to achieve. Think of targets of "suggestions" in a sense.
Our software has gone through extensive testing on the street, track, and dyno. When our 240E software was released, three cars, an E90, E92, and E93 were logged on the track in 100+ degree ambient temperatures for multiple 25 minute sessions. Oil temperatures on all three cars were 300F (oil gauge all the way to the right). The cars did not flinch or skip a beat.

We've tuned cars all over the world, ranging from climates that see below freezing temperatures to those with 120+ ambient temperatures. Our software is safe, reliable, and tested. We've tuned a few cars for race car drivers and dedicated track cars that see 20+ track days a year. When the cars are healthy and the lap times decrease, we know we've done our job.

The MSS60 DME is a VERY sophisticated control unit which employs two
Motorola MPC563 processors, one controlling ignition, and one controlling injection. It's calculating quite a lot every second to keep the engine running smoothly, so the only way a tune would not be 'safe' is if:

1) The tuner turns off knock control or misfire detection

2) The tuner runs overly aggressive timing targets or ignition presets

3) The tuner does some off the wall programming of targeted vanos position

4) The tuner turns off factory safeguards or masks "faults" to prevent error codes from mapping errors.

5) There is a mistake elsewhere (which will likely just cause limp mode, unless this was removed too).

I'm going to try to find the logs from my last track session. I reviewed them in depth at the time and was pleased with the ECU consistently hitting the set timing targets and targeted vanos position.

So – as a final word in all of this- most tunes should be safe.

Safety and reliability are our primary concern. Second to that is power delivery, drivability, and the overall driving experience. At BPM, we like to take our tuning to the next level to ensure that our hard work here, translates into your driving pleasure wherever you are.

I hope this helps answer some questions out there. Sorry for the long post. I simplified a number of things to make it easier to understand.

Mike

Mike

I am a bit confused maybe you can help. When you worked for Powerchips and you sold software on this forum for them you used to market the Powerchips software as being "custom" built by you for each car you tuned. I recall you and others saying that every M3 motor is made different from the factory and therefore each tuning file needed to be custom built. You and your customers said if the car was not custom tuned it would never be ideal. You also claimed back then that custom mapping would get 30+ HP out of a stock motor and there is no way a canned tune could achieve that level of performance. I recall this because I thought it was very odd at the time that someone would advertise custom mapping on an adaptive control system. There were others at the time like ESS that said custom mapping could not be done on the M3 because it was a target based adaptive system, as soon as the car would run after being custom tuned it would simply self adapt to the values it wants to run within it's programmed targets based on conditions, fuel etc...

Now reading what you are saying it seems you have gone away from the custom mapping marketing you used to do and have now adopted the reality that ESS and other have told people over the years that these control systems are target based and do adjust on their own to run optimum within the targets set by the tuner. What you have just posted clearly explains why custom value tuning is not possible on this car. I think you have now also adopted a more conservative approach to power claims with the software you sell now VS what you used to sell people. It seems some tuners have finally started to stop BSing people claiming there is crazy power to be unlocked with NA tuning in these cars and that custom tuning is needed.

Can you explain your change of belief from past to now? Do you still believe that each car has to run it's own custom built file because of the way the motor is built? your post says no but What you have posted in this thread goes very much against what you used to tell / sell to people in the past and i would like to hear your explination.

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by BuckRodgers

Mike

I am a bit confused maybe you can help. When you worked for Powerchips and you sold software on this forum for them you used to market the Powerchips software as being "custom" built by you for each car you tuned. I recall you and others saying that every M3 motor is made different from the factory and therefore each tuning file needed to be custom built. You and your customers said if the car was not custom tuned it would never be ideal. You also claimed back then that custom mapping would get 30+ HP out of a stock motor and there is no way a canned tune could achieve that level of performance. I recall this because I thought it was very odd at the time that someone would advertise custom mapping on an adaptive control system. There were others at the time like ESS that said custom mapping could not be done on the M3 because it was a target based adaptive system, as soon as the car would run after being custom tuned it would simply self adapt to the values it wants to run within it's programmed targets based on conditions, fuel etc...

Now reading what you are saying it seems you have gone away from the custom mapping marketing you used to do and have now adopted the reality that ESS and other have told people over the years that these control systems are target based and do adjust on their own to run optimum within the targets set by the tuner. What you have just posted clearly explains why custom value tuning is not possible on this car. I think you have now also adopted a more conservative approach to power claims with the software you sell now VS what you used to sell people. It seems some tuners have finally started to stop BSing people claiming there is crazy power to be unlocked with NA tuning in these cars and that custom tuning is needed.

Can you explain your change of belief from past to now? Do you still believe that each car has to run it's own custom built file because of the way the motor is built? your post says no but What you have posted in this thread goes very much against what you used to tell / sell to people in the past and i would like to hear your explination.

Hi Buck,

I did not perform any tuning for Powerchip, so you would have to defer to them regarding their specifics on tuning.

Custom tuning on the dyno is possible on this car, even though it is target based. I think some of the statements made are off point.

Thank you

[geneatals]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

Hi Buck,

I did not perform any tuning for Powerchip, so you would have to defer to them regarding their specifics on tuning.

Custom tuning on the dyno is possible on this car, even though it is target based. I think some of the statements made are off point.

Thank you

so before bpm, what tuning software was it, as I could have sworn I've heard/read your name associated with PC...hmmmm

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by geneatals

so before bpm, what tuning software was it, as I could have sworn I've heard/read your name associated with PC...hmmmm

Yes, I was a representative for PC back in 2008/2009 after my departure from ESS. I did not perform any tuning for them however. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact PC directly. Recently they tried to purchase my M3 V8 software, and I declined respectfully. They then told me that they would purchase it and reverse engineer it. It was quite the conversation.

meko, W///, bobba: My pleasure. Let me know if there is anything else you have questions on and I'm happy to answer.

aussieM3 - there is always exciting things coming up. Today we are working on flashing N55 through OBD, DCT repogramming using the tuning cable, and some M5 stuff.

Thank you

[Dave07997S]

I have PC Stg II software on my car that Mike sold me. At no time did he ever state that the tune was his tune. He downloaded my OEM file sent it to PC where they sent back their own file.

The custom part of the tune was whether or not you were running no cats or HFC not in the primary position, thats about it.

Mike never stated to me that the PC tune was his..

Dave