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08-06-2008, 01:24 AM | #23 | |
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uhhhh 3 4 and 5 pretty much the same thing..... |
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08-06-2008, 01:42 AM | #24 |
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wait... let me get this straight...
you want to compare the braking systems of a $120,000 3100lbs track car vs. a $55,000 3700lbs sports sedan. 1) BMW has said that carbon ceramics arent for their street cars. (i and most disagree with them but that is their official statement why they dont have CC brake options). 2) BMW didnt have a contract with brembo up until last year. Thats why your seeing 135's wearing 6 pot calipers. 3) The ATE's got the job done on the street and are acceptable for some track duty As for Porsches PCCB... one of the major car mags did a recent comparison on brake fade and stopping distance. EDIT: Found it http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ff+page-4.html After 20+ stops from high speed neither the PCCB equipped 997S nor the Stock brake equipped 997S showed any sign of fading... and both had equal stopping distances. Funny thing was they also tested a 335i and 350z... the 335 has the same crappy single piston setup similar to the m3... whereas the 350z wears multipiston brembo calipers. The result was after 13 panic stops from high speed the Z's brakes faded earlier and produced longer stopping distances then the 335. Guess looks and logo's arent everything. BTW in another recent comparison a 997 Turbo 70-0 = 154 ft. m3 did 70-0 in 158ft.
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08-06-2008, 02:27 AM | #25 | |
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08-06-2008, 02:37 AM | #26 | |
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The M3 brakes outperform the ones that come on the 135i |
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08-06-2008, 02:51 AM | #27 |
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Guys if you need Car and Driver to back up your stats you need to find a new source.
Car and driver when doing comparos on performance cars uses categories like Trunk space and got to have it factor. And those categories actually decide the outcome many times. Really the proof is in the pudding. Go to the track and see how many Real Track BMWs there are with stock brakes. If they track more than 5 times a year typically they all have 1. a warp story and 2. Stop Tech or some other brake upgrade. I am talking about guys who track more than just occasionally. And SeriousM the question was WHY does BMW not put a nice brake package on its best performance cars? I wasnt comparing PCCBs to the ugly dull iron that is the M3 brake system. I just used that as an example of a setup that works and is nice looking. I am thinking of buying a M3 and the one thing I regret is with all its great features why did BMW skimp on the brakes? Like posted above the 135i has a better setup. And yes there is an asthetic value to this. If I am going to buy a $70K car I would like to see a performance brake package through the rim. And again I was able to induce fade on our 335i in 7 hot stops. I am NOT comparing the PCCBs on the GT3 I was just using that as example I guess I could use the 300M if you like But when on the track and I am driving with these M3s then it is a comparable performance item. I agree with TLud on the fade issue. I have NO problem with initial bite on the 335i or the M3 or even my X5, just that this car as good as it is needs that package to complete the overall package that is the M3. I looked at the M3 rotors and those are fine and look good, cross drilled but lets put a nice caliper in there. In my opinion. Thanks to Radiation Joe for getting me some ideas on what BMW was thinking I appreciate it.
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08-06-2008, 04:57 AM | #28 |
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Chaps
Before I beign, would like to preface this with the fact that my brembo bbk for my e92 just arrrived and I had ordered it before I got the car. I might not be as experienced as you chaps but I have 20+ track days under my belt, have done various advanced driving courses and been to the ring a couple of times for BMW driver training. Just wanted to report on the actual performance of the braking system in the car (regardless of the rotor size, material, piston numbers etc). I did a track day in my E92 at Mondello park here in Ireland a few weeks ago. Its a tight track that is very hard on brakes. Personally, I was surprised that the brakes didn't fade as badly as I would have expected. Sure there was fade, bu it was manageable. I found that if I was doing 4-5 lap stints, laps 4-5 were dodgy, but 10 minutes in the paddock and I was ready to repeat with typically good performance for laps 1-3 again. If you forget the fade issue, in terms of stopping distance the brakes are right up there and more than enough to trigger abs and make my ps2's the limiting factor. In terms of diagnosing the fade, the nature of my pedal travel suggested it was a pad/fluid issue rather than any issue of clamping force. So in fairness, I had to reckon that changing hoses, changing the stock fluid to dot 5.1 or somethign and putting a set of performance pads on the car would give you a braking system that will work for 95% of people. Yes I am glad I have my brembos, but I recognise that its a function of looks and ease of pad change as much as anything (because I probably could have made the above changes far cheaper and had a decent system) Mick |
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08-06-2008, 06:44 AM | #29 | |
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I do find it annoying that the stock fluid boils and splashes around the engine bay slightly though. No reason why that should be happening. Why not ship the car with better fluid? The OP seems to think the E9X M3 is track car. Well, it is not. It is a sports coupe/sedan designed to be driven mainly on the road, but can deliver reasonable performance on the track. As others have said, there is no point comparing a $120k 3100lb built for the track with a $65k 3600lb road car built for spirited driving. Yes, BMW can ship the cars with an even better brake system, but that would increase the MSRP. They obviously have figured it's not worth it. Finally, the single piston calipers not applying uniform clamping force argument: that "sounds" like it makes sense, but nobody on this forum knows if that is the case in the current design or not. BMW has done the testing, and they have the data on this particular design. Only they know if that is a significant issue to the extent that it will take away from the performance. In the absence of continued punishment, it clearly does not hinder performance as we have all seen the stopping distance data. In the presence of continued punishment, it might, but we don't know to what extent as the variables above (lines, pads, fluid) are in the equation as well.
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08-06-2008, 07:39 AM | #30 | |
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I've never felt embarassed when a Chrysler Magnum has pulled up beside me. I don't feel the need to compensate for personal inadequacies with aftermarket brakes. One series brakes are better than the ones on the M3? The M3 is only lacking 40 hp and multi piston brakes? What about a real suspension and wider front tires? I ran 265 width Michelin Pilot Sport Cups on 9.5 x 18 forged magnesium BBS wheels in the front; 285 wide on 10.5 in the rear. Why on earth would I feel bad about running PF01s. That's like saying I should be embarassed for turning better lap times because I'm braking better. I'd have to ship my car across country to go to Laguna again. Not likely. I change locations for work about once a year. It's really tough to get back to CA. I might rent the orange TC Kline carbon coupe for a Laguna track day. That thing is sweet.
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08-06-2008, 07:59 AM | #31 |
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I think Lucid, said everything that needed to be said on the subject. The M3 is at best a sports coupe/saloon design for spirited driving and the occasional trackday, but by no means should be considered for serious track work in standard form. The brakes are good in the context of day to day driving, but they DO need to be upgraded like almost every normal car when track work becomes more serious. Porsche are one of the few companies which take their brake design and usage serious, every model can stand up to some serious work without fading but to compare the brakes on the M3 to that of the GT3 is really unfair, the two cars are catering to different clients and expectations.
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08-06-2008, 09:56 AM | #32 | |
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If you were able to put the 135 calipers, pads, rotors on an m3 you would increase unsprung weight and wouldnt see any improvement in either fade resistant or stopping power. Besides if the m3 weighed 3100lbs it would have alot less fading problems.
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08-06-2008, 10:24 AM | #33 | |
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"...it's not about the money and not about the brand of the car, it's about handling,performance and passion......And that, no other car has all together like an M3........when you talk about the most complete car the M is invincible." --Tony Kanaan. |
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08-06-2008, 11:05 AM | #34 | |
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To get back on track, I'd like to hear more about (1) specific owners's experiences tracking the E9X M3, what kind of driving they do (autoX, closed-circuit, etc.), and how the M3's brakes compare to other vehicles they've driven; and (2) specific experiences in improving the OEM braking system on the M3 (new bushings, steel brake lines, better fluid, performance pads, BBKs, etc.). |
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08-06-2008, 11:05 AM | #35 |
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Jeeze, Mr e46e92love,
Please take a Prozac or whatever brings you down a notch or two. Paul had a fairly legit question, and he took what we had to say at face value. He didn't argue over the merits of BBKs like so many would, and he didn't get personal. Let's not chase away the intelligent posters. They're pretty rare.
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08-06-2008, 12:03 PM | #36 |
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I have a friend who used to club race his e36 M3, and all he used was track pads, stock rotors and good fluid. Coupled with race tires and aggressive suspension, he ran some pretty fast lap times and won his class.
You don't have to blow the budget, people that race their cars are the cheapest bunch that you'll meet. With the amount of pads/rotors/tires/fluids that they go through.. they do the best with what they have. |
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08-06-2008, 12:04 PM | #37 | |
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I think this whole single vs multi piston issue is way overblown. The M3 delivers sufficient clamping force. Heat dissipation is more a function of fluid, pads & rotor size than single vs multi piston (and the overall weight of the car). This is not a track car. Its a fast road car that handles beautifully and which can deliver fun on the track, but if you want a serious track car you are in the wrong place. Me I'm happy to drive this thing sideways all day long and if I manage a few decent laps along the way then so be it. Mick |
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08-06-2008, 12:05 PM | #38 | |
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08-06-2008, 12:38 PM | #39 |
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It does not mean dickall as that is only 1 stop and is more of a test of tire grip than brake performance.Real brake performance is braking from 200kph to 70 kph several times a lap for lap after lap.
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08-06-2008, 12:49 PM | #40 | |
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FWIW, I had iron's on my GT3, not PCCB's, and LOVED them. Even the Stoptech kit (ST40 pads) I had on my E36 M3 with Pagid pads did not come close to the feel, communication, and grunt of the GT3 set-up.
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08-06-2008, 12:50 PM | #41 |
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I want someone to go hot pink for the wife/girlfriend...
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08-06-2008, 12:52 PM | #42 |
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+1, thats a one time panic stop for real world situations. Tracking is more about heat buildup/given period of time.
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08-06-2008, 01:53 PM | #43 |
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Absolutely not.
3. Is about routing air flow around the vehicle on to the brakes. 4. Is all about the rotor design. A two piece floating design with cast iron rotor and aluminum hat pinned together as per stock M3 design is great. It allows much more thermal expansion without generating thermal stress. As well care must be taken to properly design the internal fins of the rotor again for cooling 5. Is the weight of the system. Too little weight with the same heat generation will cause a much larger rise in caliper and fluid temperature. |
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08-06-2008, 02:18 PM | #44 |
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