Supercharged e90 M3 Failure

[US///M3]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

It sure does, a gentleman in Calgary also had a thrown rod as well! Here is the thread:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=569512

His was covered by warranty and he still has the car and everything is good. Engines do fail no matter how good they are or who builds them, but in a generally speaking sort of way, failures due to defects usually show up early in an engines' life!

If it's a manufacturing defect,there's no given time or mileage when the part causing the failure will go. Like with the n54 hpfp some were able to last 60k miles on a 07 335i and others cars went through 3 pumps in 20k miles.

[MatthewDavid]

Well, now that I'm adequately spooked about the S65 failing for no apparent (and certainly for apparent) reasons, I'm second guessing my 2012 order...

That said I've had my 2008 for 57k miles and the worst problem I've had, aside from the new DCT software nightmare, is a burnt out tail light.

[MPoweredAuto]

The spark plugs in the engine now are BMW originals. I think I sent the old plugs back but may still have the plugs from the car when it occurred. Don't know what good that will do but can post pics upon my return as well.

[SHOWTIME]

Originally Posted by US///M3

Sounds similar to what happened to the op's engine.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=439844


I leased a new 2010 M3 coupe, and after only 500 miles, I suffered a broken rod and subsequent engine failure. I opted for the DCT instead of the manual transmission.

I have not seen my car for over 11 weeks. A regional rep downloaded computer data, and it was determined that the engine failed due to an "RPM" issue. I have been unable to obtain any specifics and have tried, unsuccessfully, to get a copy of this data for review. The dealer will only say that the recommended 4500 RPM limit was exceeded. Nothing else was noted from the data.

After 3-4 weeks, I was finally informed of the reason why the engineers felt the engine failed. A decision was made by BMW that the problem was not covered under warranty and would therefore not be repaired under warranty. I contacted a customer rep, and after over two months of waiting, a decision was finally made that the car would be repaired under "goodwill". I have previously leased an M3 convertible, 545 i and a 2008 335 xi coupe.

Despite the fact that the car will be repaired, BMW has shown me that it is a classless operation. The company has shown no professionalism, and I have had to personally call multiple times and write multiple letters before something was finally done. It looks like the only reason they decided to repair my vehicle was because I have a track record with BMW. What if this M3 had been my first BMW lease/purchase? To not stand behind an M performance vehicle is outright embarrasing and weak. I have received no apologies from the company, and they have been frankly conceited and indifferent.

I have loved the BMW brand until now. I will have to live with this vehicle for the next three years, but after that, BMW can go to hell. There are many other companies which certainly have more pride in their vehicles and turn out excellent products. I understand that automobiles are mechanical and that there is the chance of catastrophic failure, but I cannot accept that a company simply blames "RPMs" for a complete engine failure (especially with a DCT) without the consideration that the problem may have occurred on the assembly line or in the manufacturing of a part.

If there is anyone reading this post who has any further information or knowledge of similar occurrences, I would love the hear from you. If there is anyone reading this post who is associated with BMW, a simple apology and explanation may change my mind concerning the company. Right now, I am mad as hell as my brand new vehicle has been sitting in a garage for almost three months while I have made three payments during that time.

If BMW were to have shown more concern, I could have stomached the situation a lot better. I am a physician and have many coworkers who drive nice vehicles. After finding out about my situation, I know of 4 friends and coworkers who were previously considering an M3. Now, they are not only not considering an M3 but not considering BMW at all. This has occurred without me even making an active effort to voice my displeasure over the recent event.

The Joy of Driving my ass- more like the ultimate nightmare!

03-10-2010, 04:51 PM

adc BMW Fahrer Location: DC-MD-VA

J

I hear you buddy. BMW representatives are so gassed with their heads so far up their asses that they feel their engineering cannot possibly fail. It must be the customer's fault somehow.
I once went in for the sunroof panel that you close manually with your hand. It came out of alignment and would not close right. Guess what they said? Driver misuse and cannot be covered under warranty. I flipped! Even the manager came to calm me down and explain. I said to him, are you an idiot? How many ways are there to open/close a sunroof? you either pull back or push forward! My Camry obviously has no problem with the way I do it! Then they agreed to cover it under warranty only if I decide to fix and pay the weather stripping that was falling off as well. That was a completely separate issue by the windows which was also a defect that they would not cover. I flipped again and finally they settled with fixing the sunroof panel under warranty. I was so disgusted with them that I went to infiniti after.

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by MatthewDavid

Well, now that I'm adequately spooked about the S65 failing for no apparent (and certainly for apparent) reasons, I'm second guessing my 2012 order...

That said I've had my 2008 for 57k miles and the worst problem I've had, aside from the new DCT software nightmare, is a burnt out tail light.

Leave it stock and you will not have any great concerns

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by US///M3

If it's a manufacturing defect,there's no given time or mileage when the part causing the failure will go. Like with the n54 hpfp some were able to last 60k miles on a 07 335i and others cars went through 3 pumps in 20k miles.

I am not talking about every part my friend...... I am referring to parts in the rotating assembly of an engine....... A rod cap not torqued, bearing too tight, wrist pin retainer clip not installed, etc. Parts subjected to reciprocating forces in an engine generally don't stand up long if they are defective, improperly torqued or improperly assembled they show up quickly!

[Krozi]

I really do hope Active replies to all of this...

[US///M3]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

I am not talking about every part my friend...... I am referring to parts in the rotating assembly of an engine....... A rod cap not torqued, bearing too tight, wrist pin retainer clip not installed, etc. Parts subjected to reciprocating forces in an engine generally don't stand up long if they are defective, improperly torqued or improperly assembled they show up quickly!

Not necessarily,you can have a small crack that develops over time and result in a engine failure down the road in 500 miles or 20k miles. Like an unbalanced crankshaft...

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

The tight bearing clearances could have been a contributing factor but this engine had 20000+ miles without an issue so I doubt it was that.

True. But according to OP, only 1200 or so miles with the SC installed. If the clearances were marginal stock in this specific engine, could the extra charge from the SC push out the oil film in the bearings?

Further, didn't the Gintani engine run several seasons before they tore it down and observed the worn bearings?

Gearhead raised a good point: Were the jounals seized on the failed tie rod of the OP's engine?

[frenchM3dreamer]

a rod spinning freely could also mean a worn out bearing, worn out to about 1/2 of its original thickness... unless you take it apart and visually look at it, it looks and feels like the rod spins freely...
dont ask me how i know, my rear-end still hurts on this one...

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

True. But according to OP, only 1200 or so miles with the SC installed. If the clearances were marginal stock in this specific engine, could the extra charge from the SC push out the oil film in the bearings?

Further, didn't the Gintani engine run several seasons before they tore it down and observed the worn bearings?

Gearhead raised a good point: Were the jounals seized on the failed tie rod of the OP's engine?

Yes the extra forces due to the supercharger "could" break down the oil film, however, at the rated horsepower of this kit it should have been OK! There are hundreds of ESS kits out there running similar horsepower and no failures. There most likely was a contributing factor that caused this failure, and it is one of the many things I mentioned a few posts ago....... An over rev (either from the OP, someone from the shop, someone who drove it while it was a demo), detonation from bad tuning, or a manufacturers defect/assembly error (the one which I think is the least propable given the mileage on the vehicle before the failure).

Everything from here on in is going to be speculation, we won't know, we can only make these theories, a proper analysis needs to be done.

If I could see it in person I could tell you with 90-95% certainty what the cause was and if the journal had seized, but, after the failure and the forces involved, again, one couldn't tell unless it was analyzed by a proper materials engineering/failure analysis firm. The specialized equipment and FEM software used by these firms is required to be 100% sure of causes and effects!

[LostM]

If they were already boosted, and went from catless, back to catted, there would have been an increase in boost......maybe too much? And of course, that also absolves AA as the car was again changed w/o their knowledge and advice, ect..

[Singletrack]

...the OP also was not using the recommended BMW oil. : |

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by LostM

If they were already boosted, and went from catless, back to catted, there would have been an increase in boost......maybe too much? And of course, that also absolves AA as the car was again changed w/o their knowledge and advice, ect..

Please tell me how catted vs non catted effects boost on a supercharged car?

Backpressure and EGT's may have changed, but not boost!

[MPoweredAuto]

The oil used meets and exceeds all specs of the castrol 10w60 oil, but does not go 15,000 miles...
I change the oil on my cars religiously, this one included. Matter of fact this oil was changed immediately before leaving to go to AA. We can go the route of the oil is to blame but that will be immediately disproved as well.

As for the cats, these were the AA 200 cell hi flow cats that we added back as an option. The software for the s/c should be the same as what was there before as I confirmed with AA after speaking to them about the incident. There reply was "that doesn't matter.". Word for word.

All good thoughts. Thank you.

[Edjay]

Why do you think its AA kit that ruined your motor? Did you had it checked out by someone else and they told you its the kit that caused it? Or did you just blame AA because it was the last mod you did before the motor went kaboom?

[MPoweredAuto]

http://scienceforums.com/topic/3055-...ngine-run-hot/

Just a quick google find. Pre-ignition. Wouldn't that put added strain on a rod/piston if it was running lean? I think everyone can agree the pics posted indicate it was running lean. How lean? Lean enough to over time cause damage. How could the engine be running lean?

The tune.

From my understanding, the tune for this setup was changed after my engine failure. Why, if they felt confident in it from the start?

Begs me to want to share more about the other first run M3's equipped with this kit but I will stick to my car and my case.

Thank you.

[MPoweredAuto]

Hopefully AA has revised their kits after mine and no others will have this same catastrophic outcome. I wish this on nobody else.

But should I be held victim for Beta testing? $h!t happens I know, but at who's expense? Should testing and modifying a kit that was advertised as "reliable and conservative" be the end users fault when it fails? If there was nothing wrong with the tune then why would revisions be made??

.

[Gumulri]

TISK! TISK! Active Autoworke, I know I wont be letting your products touch my car now.. unless they step up and somehow make good on this... And Mpoweredauto I feel for you man. Hope you have better luck going forward.

+1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 111111111111111

[MPoweredAuto]

Losing sleep wrapping my head around this thought of a bad tune
I came to a stunning conclusion. Whereas this is just my thought, which will need to be confirmed by others, imagine this:
They tuned their kits for the atmosphere in Miami, which they claim is very harsh and if it can stand up to the high heat and humidity down there it should be fine everywhere else, correct?

"The addition of water vapor to air (making the air humid) reduces the density of the air, which may at first appear contrary to logic.

This occurs because the molecular mass of water (18 g/mol) is less than the molecular mass of dry air (around 29 g/mol). For any gas, at a given temperature and pressure, the number of molecules present is constant for a particular volume (see Avogadro's Law). So when water molecules (vapor) are added to a given volume of air, the dry air molecules must decrease by the same number, to keep the pressure or temperature from increasing. Hence the mass per unit volume of the gas (its density) decreases."

It is drastically more humid in Miami than in Raleigh. I was told their tune would work fine in my area. IF the humidity difference between the two area's is great enough the density of air would be too. This would result in more air getting into the combustion chamber than what was tuned for in Miami, resulting in a "lean" condition.

Perhaps they didn't take into account geographical differences when performing their R&D. Yes the tune may be safe down where the humidity is high, but is it elsewhere?

Now I can sleep.

[Singletrack]

Originally Posted by MPoweredAuto

http://scienceforums.com/topic/3055-...ngine-run-hot/

Just a quick google find. Pre-ignition. Wouldn't that put added strain on a rod/piston if it was running lean? I think everyone can agree the pics posted indicate it was running lean. How lean? Lean enough to over time cause damage. How could the engine be running lean?

The tune.

From my understanding, the tune for this setup was changed after my engine failure. Why, if they felt confident in it from the start?

Begs me to want to share more about the other first run M3's equipped with this kit but I will stick to my car and my case.

Thank you.

BMW revises software also...as well as every tuner. That doesn't prove anything.

Over-revving engines also causes stress on components.

That being said, running this engine very lean is a terrible idea. Running this engine lean on a SC car is beyond a terrible idea.

The plugs being "white" really doesn't prove anything either from what I understand. I didn't know this until this thread, but it makes perfect sense. It is common for cars on meth to have "clean" plugs because of the meth. Another member also supported this fact with personal experience.

You should have downloaded the tune. A tuner with access to all the maps could tell you what was different. Of course, not sure how the meth ties into the system and what controls that...pretty hard to say this or that was too lean or too much timing without looking at how the system works as a whole...you could also try to track down a new version of their software vs. your old one. Probably very difficult to do now.

You should have had your engine analyzed if you wanted to really know what happened for sure. You should have also addressed this with AA in a much different manner IMHO.

Do you see how your theories, while plausible, are not proven?

[MPoweredAuto]

AA didn't want to assume any responsibility for this, for reasons unknown. Perhaps they didn't want the bad press to get out...too late.

I tried to address this with them over a year ago and even more recent. They did not help me offset the cost of repair. Once I gathered they weren't going to help me, the consumer, is when I felt it necessary to inform other potential consumers of my experience.

Had I got a "Professional analysis" performed before I was convinced to revert bak to stock I would more than likely have an even better leg to stand on. Unfortunately I didn't spend the extra $$ to do so and decided the AA kit was not a safe bet for my vehicle anymore.

While data analysis from my engine block from a firm may have proven some things, the fact that tunes and other misc items were changed would have thrown a fork in the middle of it. Trust me, if I could go back and have gotten a tear down from a diagnostic/forensic firm I would have!