What to do, to build an S65?

[Soorena]

Optimizing fueling for extra displacement is easy. Everyone who can tune for supercharger application can do a stroker/LC/SC combo too. The LC gives you more room for timing so you add a bit of more aggressive timing. It really is that easy if you have access to supercharger tuning files. Some may make it look like it's black magic to save their business.

Alusil is the name of an alloy that happens to be the same material that our engines are built from. Special pistons are needed to keep the silicon cylinder liners happy and only Mahle makes those pistons.

@MFKN3 what piston/rods are you using?

[MFKN3]

Forged pistons with custom coating. That's as much as I know, sorry

[SVH]

Originally Posted by Soorena

Everyone who can tune for supercharger application can do a stroker/LC/SC combo too. It really is that easy if you have access to supercharger tuning files.

I disagree. It's not that "easy". At least to find somebody with the knowledge and experence who is willing to modify a manufacture's SC file. Anyone who goes the route of a one-off stroker/LC/SC combo has to find somebody willing to tune it and most stroker builders/venders arn't interested. ESS runs dozens of dyno's fine tuning their VT3's to make sure it's right. You gonna trust somebody else to moify a ESS/AA/Gintani SC file and tune your LC/SC'ed stroker? Getting them to do it, on an engine they did not build, their not interested.

[Verify]

If u think its hard to find a tuner to tune a bmw, your just not informed enough or havent looked at more than a forum

[SVH]

Ah...but I have been down this road. And it's not so easy. The major venders are generally NOT interested. If you know someone, great for you, but for the average Joe, good luck.

As Roman of ESS said in this thread - http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...light=ESS+tune

..."If you have never developed your own supercharger software for your own products then you would be starting from scratch and there is no way you could do this without having access to a supercharged car for a long period of time. There is no way any tuner could properly tune all of the kits on the market without having each version of each kit at their facility / dyno for a period of time."

In other words, it's not easy...

[BobS]

Just an FYI....evolve can custom tune no problem. They custom tuned my kit and another evolve customer I know. We are both running completely different tunes, pulleys, boost, fbo's, etc...

Might be something to consider moving forward.

[SVH]

Originally Posted by BobS

Just an FYI....evolve can custom tune no problem. They custom tuned my kit and another evolve customer I know. We are both running completely different tunes, pulleys, boost, fbo's, etc...

Might be something to consider moving forward.

Stock motor or stroker/LC with SC?

[BobS]

Originally Posted by SVH

Stock motor or stroker/LC with SC?

My experience is with stock motor, but assuming their blower can yield the power a stroker would allow it to, I see no reason why they couldn't custom tune a stroker/LC setup with SC.

The best bet would be to ask them.

My point of why I brought it up, is the discussion on this thread about supercharger companies not providing custom tunes. I know evolve can custom tune for different fuel mixtures too.

[SVH]

My experience has been that I could get a LC stroker built (pick a vender, like RD, VAC, etc...) but getting a SC added and tuned for my build was a different story. Venders weren't interested unless it was their build and their SC. So if you want to go it alone and build you own via a local shop you'll generally have a hard time.

[Soorena]

Originally Posted by MFKN3

Forged pistons with custom coating. That's as much as I know, sorry

Stock rods?

Originally Posted by BobS

My experience is with stock motor, but assuming their blower can yield the power a stroker would allow it to, I see no reason why they couldn't custom tune a stroker/LC setup with SC.

The best bet would be to ask them.

My point of why I brought it up, is the discussion on this thread about supercharger companies not providing custom tunes. I know evolve can custom tune for different fuel mixtures too.

What's up Bob? :-) Welcome to the S65 side.
Yeah Sal is great. He can do that.

Originally Posted by SVH

I disagree. It's not that "easy". At least to find somebody with the knowledge and experence who is willing to modify a manufacture's SC file. Anyone who goes the route of a one-off stroker/LC/SC combo has to find somebody willing to tune it and most stroker builders/venders arn't interested. ESS runs dozens of dyno's fine tuning their VT3's to make sure it's right. You gonna trust somebody else to moify a ESS/AA/Gintani SC file and tune your LC/SC'ed stroker? Getting them to do it, on an engine they did not build, their not interested.

It's that easy, trust me. Check out Mustangs, Camaros etc... With those cars you don't go and buy a complete kit for your car, there are kits from Vortech, Procharger, Whipple etc... You buy their hardware and let someone else do the tuning part. Now is there any difference between tuning a modern Ford and modern BMW? Yes, but not much. Once you pass the encryption and understand the tables, it's as easy as tuning a Ford. Tuning for different boost characters for a Mustang is no different than what you have to for a BMW. You add more fueling for stroker for BMW just like you do for Ford. You add more timing just like you do for any 4V Ford engine when tuning for LC. But the difference is, you don't see Vortech coming to forums and questioning tuners about their work because it's an accepted fact that custom tune > canned tune. But in here due to having a far smaller customer base tuners should do anything to keep their businesses going and one of them is making tuning look like some sort of black magic (I was talking about tuning in general form not Cracking/Hacking DME and writing protocols)

These days everyone and their mom have access to the base SC file that all others based their tuning on. If the person knows a thing or two about tuning, he/she can tune for any SC application you want. IMHO tuning for NA is far more difficult than writing maps for FI, so a tuner who does potent NA tunes and assuming he has a SC file, can do well for a SC/Stroker/LC.

[e92livin]

Originally Posted by MFKN3

Forged pistons with custom coating. That's as much as I know, sorry

So you pay close to 20 grand for a build like that, but don't know what you paid for other than custom coating and forged pistons?

[e92livin]

I think Gintani has done quite a few S/C Stroker builds with low compression pistons and have done custom tuning.

[Verify]

lets see, custom tuning for BMWs, off the top of my head, you have TTFS, RK-Tunes, MaxPSI, Undercover, BrenTuning, AA, ESS, VAC, Gintani, Eurocharged, PTF, Evolve, AtSpeedMotorworks, RRT, VR Tuned, Buckhead imports..

All of these have done and willing to do custom tuning, so to people who say only XYZ will tune if you buy their S/C kit is ridiculous as only 4 of the above have their own kits. The "big" 3 charge 100% markup on built motors is because they have to pay for the advertising that puts their name in your head, not because no one else can or able to do it

[BobS]

Originally Posted by Soorena

What's up Bob? :-) Welcome to the S65 side.
Yeah Sal is great. He can do that.

I'm loving the s65

Like I said, give evolve a call and talk about it. The only way to do a built SC s65 would be a custom tune IMO

[SVH]

Originally Posted by Serpico

lets see, custom tuning for BMWs, off the top of my head, you have TTFS, RK-Tunes, MaxPSI, Undercover, BrenTuning, AA, ESS, VAC, Gintani, Eurocharged, PTF, Evolve, AtSpeedMotorworks, RRT, VR Tuned, Buckhead imports..

All of these have done and willing to do custom tuning so to people who say only XYZ will tune if you buy their S/C kit is ridiculous as only 4 of the above have their own kits. The "big" 3 charge 100% markup on built motors is because they have to pay for the advertising that puts their name in your head, not because no one else can or able to do it

Well, a few comments are in order.

Of the 4 above three are not just "willing to do custom work". I've tried directlyindirectly to do such but was turned down. Not interested in tuning for my stroker build. Period. End of story. Each had their own reasons.

Now, I should clairify that I wanted a turn key operation, being rebuild my motor (wanted a stroker) and add a SC. Most companys did one part but not the other. Getting them to all play nice in the sandbox proved impossible Having said that, those here who wish to build their own stroker by acquiring the parts and having a thrid party tune their build can approach various other "tuners" like you listed as they wish (which is quite an extensive list you provided, by the way!). I was not interested in that approach I found the issue becomes more complicated and would be consuming more and more of my time. So it wasn't getting easier. In addition, I didn't like the idea of added involvement of third parties. Something goes wrong, harder to place responsibility (ie: blame).

Finally, do you have any direct links where company's like TTFS, RK-Tunes, MaxPSI, Undercover, etc, have prvided such service on BMW M3? that would be most helpfull to the OP and others here on the board.

[Verify]

Originally Posted by SVH

Well, a few comments are in order.

Of the 4 above three are not just "willing to do custom work". I've tried directlyindirectly to do such but was turned down. Not interested in tuning for my stroker build. Period. End of story. Each had their own reasons.

Now, I should clairify that I wanted a turn key operation, being rebuild my motor (wanted a stroker) and add a SC. Most companys did one part but not the other. Getting them to all play nice in the sandbox proved impossible Having said that, those here who wish to build their own stroker by acquiring the parts and having a thrid party tune their build can approach various other "tuners" like you listed as they wish (which is quite an extensive list you provided, by the way!). I was not interested in that approach I found the issue becomes more complicated and would be consuming more and more of my time. So it wasn't getting easier. In addition, I didn't like the idea of added involvement of third parties. Something goes wrong, harder to place responsibility (ie: blame).

Finally, do you have any direct links where company's like TTFS, RK-Tunes, MaxPSI, Undercover, etc, have prvided such service on BMW M3? that would be most helpfull to the OP and others here on the board.

Sure, just google their websites and FB pages they all show the custom work they have done. i would ask for you to tell us which ones were NOT willing to do the custom work for you as im curious as well.

Remember, building a motor and tuning it are 2 different problems. My build route will cost me about 8-10k in parts, ~5k in labor, and less than 2k to tune. But I dont plan on stroking as its not been shown to show realworld results and adds even complications, as you said.

If you want a one stop/turn key solution, use the "big 3" and pay more, but remember, they are not doing ALL the work in-house.

If your looking for someone to "blame" your not realistic and been pampered by the BMW crowd as performance breaks things. Even then, something happens and it will be known, engine build mis-haps vs tuning mishaps are easy to see on teardown.

If you think the "BIG 3' will save you headaches, i would say you havent been paying attention as every car has had its issues publicly, not to mention what doesnt get public attention.

[Morally Gray]

While we have some engine gurus here... With forged internals and slightly improved clearances and just possibly a fuel system upgrade... how much boost do you think is safe with stock compression with a gintani stage 2 kit?

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by Agent_Orange

While we have some engine gurus here... With forged internals and slightly improved clearances and just possibly a fuel system upgrade... how much boost do you think is safe with stock compression with a gintani stage 2 kit?

No more than what the stage 2 or a ess 650 kit has. Upgrading internals will not allow you to turn up the boost. You must lower compression if you are wanting more boost (12-13 psi)

[SVH]

I've talked with Gintani about this specifically. Gintani (Alex) said you maybe can go 10-11 psi at the most but that's pushing it.

Edit: that's on a stroker.

[Morally Gray]

Well after a rebuild I don't have much of an appetite to push it!

Back to the point of this thread, so if hardened internals won't allow you to run more boost, do you really need to worry about pistons?

I can understand a stretched rod from over reving so see vale in upgrading, but I haven't heard many stories of detonation and I also heard the stock pistons are forged?!

Q) After market pistons... Do you need them?

[sales@ESSTuning]

The only reason to do a full motor build is if you intend to lower your CR for high boost FI application. Lowering your CR allows for higher boost levels to be run safely or adds more safety to existing boost levels. Running anything more than 8-9 psi on the S65 really requires lower CR if your interested in reliability. This can be done with a custom drop in piston or sleeving the cylinders and adding new custom pistons. If you do lower the CR and raise the boost past 9 psi you will need a custom fuel system like the one DLSJ5 runs on his VT3 setup. It is not enough to simply build the motor and crank up the boost.

We do not have the time to build and support custom motor builds. These builds require dedicated time, staff and work space. We have dealers that are more than willing to take on these builds and have built them for customers in the past. If someone has a built motor, a proper fuel system and is running our supercharger it is easy for us to supply the hardware for high boost and software needed but we do not do tech support on these.

[MFKN3]

I agree with Roman. I run 8-9 psi and was told the fuel system probably wouldn't keep up if I went any higher. That and my CR is already 12.0:1

It's how I wanted it though, lots of torque and nice and bouncy around tracks yet still okay on the street. I honestly couldn't use more power, it would be too hard to control. Other builds I have seen is to stroke/bore and lower compression but run 15+psi boost. My pistons were replaced with newer forged ones to be stronger and also because I had a full build to keep compression high. The stock pistons are forged, but I'm unsure how they compare.

I don't think there are many stories of detonation because I heard the ECU does a good job at managing and intercepting but could be wrong.