Test drove a 2012 Porsche 911S over the weekend, surprised the M3 held up

[bholloway]

Originally Posted by signes

After lurking in this thread I have to jump in at this. Some of these comments (in bold) are just complete BS. I gather based on your comments you are in love with Porsche, but you are doing the exact same thing you criticize M3 fans for blindly loving one brand/make. I've owned a 911 and loved it, great drivers car and truly a "sports" car where it takes effort and skill to get the most out of it. I appreciate that and agree that it is another rung up the performance ladder, mostly because the 911 is a car more focused on actually being a sports car (its smaller, lighter, etc.)

But stop with the other nonsense about the M3.

1. Its not that fast: It actually is pretty damn fast and isn't much slower than a 997, and in fact it is about equal in straight line speed/top speed. The 911 wins in the corners because of its lower weight and smaller size. Shock.
   
2. Really isn't much of a drivers car: Seriously? This is one of the best drivers cars out there and certainly the best in its price category. It is easier to drive faster but that doesn't mean it is a "drivers car"
   
3. It shouldn't be considered an elite performance car like Porsches are: Please stop with the P-car snobbery. Every (almost every) Porsche is a mass produced car, that rules out "elite" in my book. So would a Ferrari guy then say that Porsches aren't elite performance cars? Is the base Boxster an "elite" performance car. GMAFB. They're all great cars in my book. No need for the elitist comments.
   
4. M3 isn't too great of a commuter either because of its small gas tank and poor gas mileage, and it isn't that big either: This is a great commuter car for me. I drive it everyday, sun, rain, snow, anything. I can take my wife and two kids up the mountains in the snow and hit the slopes without any worries. I take it shopping and pile it full, I take it to work 30 miles each way, I take it over 10,000 foot passes in a blizzard, ... I take it almost anywhere except offroad and it does great. It has the interior room of the E39 which is as much as most people need short of a full SUV. And I get about 19mpg average (most of my commute is highway.) I fill up about once a week. The horror...

So enough of the Porsche slobbering. They are great cars, any enthusiast appreciates them for what they are - *fantastic* sports cars (and pretty good SUVs and sedans if you want a Cayenne or Panamera.) But speaking of the 911, it is *significantly* more expensive than an M3 which isn't too far off in terms of performance and the M3 can do a lot more. That is pretty impressive in my book and why the M3 is probably the best all 'rounder out there.

I wouldn't say that any of my points are complete BS in any way. You've skewed all of the arguments to work in your favor simply because of bias and by deviating from the original argument.

1. Not that fast: It really isn't. especially because of the low torque. Sure the engine has a great top end but how many times are you hitting over 100mph. The M3 has good performance for its price, but then again the Lancer Evo has good performance for its price too, and its substantially cheaper than an M3. Does that make it better? You're argument fails simply because an example of a cheaper/faster car can always be found.

2. Drivers car argument: I'm not denying that the M3 isn't a drivers car, but lets be honest. The M3 isn't as much of a drivers car as a Porsche in the same way that a Porsche isn't in the same league as a Ferrari. I have a subaru wrx that I love dearly and its a blast to drive. Compared to a civic I would consider it more of a drivers car, but compared to an M3 I definitely wouldn't. And saying its one of "best drivers cars out there" is simply a joke. Saying its a good drivers car is acceptable, but it isn't even close to one of the best out there because it wasn't made to be.

3. Elite Performance Car: Once again you're not focusing on the issue at hand which is 911s vs M3, but thats alright if its brands of cars you want to compare then that's great. Its funny you mention mass produced cars because BMW is probably the worst culprit of mass producing cars. BMWs used to be the "ultimate driving machine" yet I see tons of low end 328i's and 128i's being driven my old women who clearly buy a BMW just to say its a BMW. Even the M3 is a car thats watered down for people like you who want a little performance mixed with luxury and theres nothing wrong with that. But don't try and convince me the M3 was designed to be a true performance car because it simply was not.

BMWs are being tailored to the everyday person vs the true car enthusiast and the have been for a while. With the exception of the M3 and maybe the 1M BMW lacks and semblance of a car that is made for the driving experience. Porsche makes tons of them whether it be the GT3s, GT2s, cayman s, boxter spyders, 911s etc. Porsche balances cars for the everyday person with real performance cars that can stand up to supercars at fractions of the price.

4. Commute: This is a situation in which the M3 happens to fit your life perfectly and that's great for you. But for those of use who aren't only driving on the highway it begins to get annoying when I have to fill up every 200-250 miles. Its also the size of a standard 3 series which to be honest isn't that much room when you start lugging around bags, kids, animals, friends etc. It's a nice sized car for sure, but I know from my life that there are always a few times a year when I need to move something big, and the M3 just doesn't cut it for me.

I'm tired of defending this post and I really could care less about what you guys think of your M3s. I had one for a while and it was a great car, but for me it didn't fit my lifestyle. While the M3 does many things, personally, I'd rather have one car purely for driving and one for commuting, lugging, etc. When it comes down to it there's always a better car and I think the people on this forum need to understand that and stop defending their M3s to the nth degree.

An M3 is no 911s. It never was and it will never be.

[Nine]

Originally Posted by signes

After lurking in this thread I have to jump in at this. Some of these comments (in bold) are just complete BS. I gather based on your comments you are in love with Porsche, but you are doing the exact same thing you criticize M3 fans for blindly loving one brand/make. I've owned a 911 and loved it, great drivers car and truly a "sports" car where it takes effort and skill to get the most out of it. I appreciate that and agree that it is another rung up the performance ladder, mostly because the 911 is a car more focused on actually being a sports car (its smaller, lighter, etc.)

But stop with the other nonsense about the M3.

1. Its not that fast: It actually is pretty damn fast and isn't much slower than a 997, and in fact it is about equal in straight line speed/top speed. The 911 wins in the corners because of its lower weight and smaller size. Shock.
   
2. Really isn't much of a drivers car: Seriously? This is one of the best drivers cars out there and certainly the best in its price category. It is easier to drive faster but that doesn't mean it is a "drivers car"
   
3. It shouldn't be considered an elite performance car like Porsches are: Please stop with the P-car snobbery. Every (almost every) Porsche is a mass produced car, that rules out "elite" in my book. So would a Ferrari guy then say that Porsches aren't elite performance cars? Is the base Boxster an "elite" performance car. GMAFB. They're all great cars in my book. No need for the elitist comments.
   
4. M3 isn't too great of a commuter either because of its small gas tank and poor gas mileage, and it isn't that big either: This is a great commuter car for me. I drive it everyday, sun, rain, snow, anything. I can take my wife and two kids up the mountains in the snow and hit the slopes without any worries. I take it shopping and pile it full, I take it to work 30 miles each way, I take it over 10,000 foot passes in a blizzard, ... I take it almost anywhere except offroad and it does great. It has the interior room of the E39 which is as much as most people need short of a full SUV. And I get about 19mpg average (most of my commute is highway.) I fill up about once a week. The horror...

So enough of the Porsche slobbering. They are great cars, any enthusiast appreciates them for what they are - *fantastic* sports cars (and pretty good SUVs and sedans if you want a Cayenne or Panamera.) But speaking of the 911, it is *significantly* more expensive than an M3 which isn't too far off in terms of performance and the M3 can do a lot more. That is pretty impressive in my book and why the M3 is probably the best all 'rounder out there.

Yes and Yes.

[FStop7]

[signes]

Originally Posted by bholloway

I wouldn't say that any of my points are complete BS in any way. You've skewed all of the arguments to work in your favor simply because of bias and by deviating from the original argument.

Defensive much? I didn't skew anything, I used direct quotes from what you said. And I am not biased at all - I *complimented* the 911 and Porsches in general. Did you even read what I said? I have a lot of respect for them and what they are capable of. A 911 is a faster more capable performance car than the M3. Is that blunt blatant enough for you to comprehend? You are just proving you don't have respect for the M3. Do you need to shit on it to feel better about your P-car(s)? I get that people on this forum and others can get carried away with M3 love, but it is not too far away (from the 911) in terms of outright performance. Comparisons are natural. If I were to go to a 2-car line-up I would have the Cayman R as my sports car. Sounds like an incredible car.

I am not going to respond to all of your nonsense below, you just proved that you didn't read what I said. Also making obnoxious statements like "the M3 is a car that's watered down for people like you"... GFY. You don't know me and have (clearly) and clue as to what is important. If you can find me a lightweight high performance sedan that can outperform the M3, name it. I'll go out and buy it tomorrow.

But one more time - they are both great cars. Try and appreciate that and respect the capabilities of other cars.

[dawgdog]

My brother was looking at Porsche's and we took a 911C4s out for about an hour. I came back with the same impression viz. this car doesn't wow me and I like my engine better. I also test drove a 2010 GT3 but had the salesman with me and never really got to drive it aggressively. Now I did ride with an instructor at a track event in a GT3 and this guy could drive and it had Hoosiers and it was insane! My instructor said I was driving within 5 mph of his speeds but that is just not true. He was crazy fast in the corners and hit 165mph going into turn 1 at Pacific Raceways. My conclusion: If I get a Porsche it will be a late model GT3 or GT3RS.

[Manifold]

To try to find a fun car to complement my C63, I've been test driving lots of cars lately, including the M3, 335is, Boxster S, Boxster RS60, Boxster Spyder, 911, 911S, 911 Turbo, Cayman, Panamera S, and Panamera Turbo.

My conclusion is that, when driven spirited but not at the limit (which you can't really do on public roads anyway), I enjoy my C63 more than any of the others, so I'm having a surprisingly hard time finding an additional car which adds enough value to justify buying it. That's not to say these other cars aren't good -- they all are, and some are great.

But my point is that when you get to this level of cars, and are seeking enjoyment rather than just transport, it really becomes subjective. We can compare track times, hp, torque, etc., but none of that matters as much as how much you enjoy a car when driven the way you will actually drive it (not the way you dream of driving it, or the way a pro racer with more skill drives it).

[alms211]

Originally Posted by IAA-C63

To try to find a fun car to complement my C63, I've been test driving lots of cars lately, including the M3, 335is, Boxster S, Boxster RS60, Boxster Spyder, 911, 911S, 911 Turbo, Cayman, Panamera S, and Panamera Turbo.

My conclusion is that, when driven spirited but not at the limit (which you can't really do on public roads anyway), I enjoy my C63 more than any of the others, so I'm having a surprisingly hard time finding an additional car which adds enough value to justify buying it. That's not to say these other cars aren't good -- they all are, and some are great.

But my point is that when you get to this level of cars, and are seeking enjoyment rather than just transport, it really becomes subjective. We can compare track times, hp, torque, etc., but none of that matters as much as how much you enjoy a car when driven the way you will actually drive it (not the way you dream of driving it, or the way a pro racer with more skill drives it).

+1...this. I can't tell you the number of people I run into and read about on forums just like this that throw out lap times, 1/4 miles times, etc. That's all fine and good but, at the end of the day, just like IAA said..all that should matter is how the car feels, looks, and performs for how you are going to drive it. For instance, at this time I wouldn't own a GT3, a Lotus or a Scud because I will never use it for what it's intended...tons of track time. Well, the Scud for another reason (I can't afford one)... A 997TT would be a different story. as would a GT-R.

[M370z]

Out of curiosity, how did you like the 335is / how did it compare to other cars you drove?

Originally Posted by IAA-C63

To try to find a fun car to complement my C63, I've been test driving lots of cars lately, including the M3, 335is, Boxster S, Boxster RS60, Boxster Spyder, 911, 911S, 911 Turbo, Cayman, Panamera S, and Panamera Turbo.

My conclusion is that, when driven spirited but not at the limit (which you can't really do on public roads anyway), I enjoy my C63 more than any of the others, so I'm having a surprisingly hard time finding an additional car which adds enough value to justify buying it. That's not to say these other cars aren't good -- they all are, and some are great.

But my point is that when you get to this level of cars, and are seeking enjoyment rather than just transport, it really becomes subjective. We can compare track times, hp, torque, etc., but none of that matters as much as how much you enjoy a car when driven the way you will actually drive it (not the way you dream of driving it, or the way a pro racer with more skill drives it).

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by shift@red

I agree with a lot of what you say, but Porsche's are definitely in the same league as Ferrari or whatever other high end comparable marque is out there.

Why the GT3 RS was picked as THE BEST driver's car the 458. It also won in EVO BEST OF THE BEST over the 458. Just saying.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/blogs/still...t3-rs-won.aspx

I would take a PCar over a Ferrari anyday of the week. In my opinion the PCars are up there in performance with a fraction of the cost and a much better reliability as well as service record.

It didn't fit for me when I owned my 997S, love my M3. However, I would love to own another Porsche again one day.

Dave

[Erhan]

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

I would take a PCar over a Ferrari anyday of the week. In my opinion the PCars are up there in performance with a fraction of the cost and a much better reliability as well as service record.

It didn't fit for me when I owned my 997S, love my M3. However, I would love to own another Porsche again one day.

Dave

True that. It kinda sucks that Ferrari has to have so much more maintanence and reliability issues to compete with a much cheaper GT3 RS...

I wonder if there is any improvement on Ferrari's side in terms of reliability and maintanance.. is the F458 better than F430 in this regard?

[alms211]

Come on now Greg...play nice

[Erhan]

Originally Posted by shift@red

You tell me.


In all seriousness, theyve gotten better, but still wouldnt rank near the top in terms of reliability and maint costs are not low. The biggest thing on Ferraris and really any mid engine car is when they need to drop the motor out, that usually means big $$ just because its such a long process.

Yeah I know that catching fire issue due to some glue overheating or whatever That was such a failure though... How can they make a mistake such that, and how these mistakes don't come up in testing I don't understand.

[alms211]

Originally Posted by shift@red

It wasnt on fire. That just looks like someone wrecked their car ebcause they couldnt handle it.
The 458s were just trying to go down the street to Starbuck's, let alone on a track like the CGT.

Ummm...what are all of the USED fire extinguishers for:

Here's more

http://www.google.com/images?q=porsc...P&start=0&sa=N

[alms211]

btw, the Porsche GT is probably my favorite car of all time..not hating...just saying it happens to all. Do agree, moreso with Ferrari's

[saeyedoc]

I thought I read somewhere that new Ferrari's come with scheduled maintenence.

[Erhan]

Originally Posted by saeyedoc

I thought I read somewhere that new Ferrari's come with scheduled maintenence.

So they catch fire on schedule?

[Manifold]

Originally Posted by M370z

Out of curiosity, how did you like the 335is / how did it compare to other cars you drove?

The 335is I drove was a convertible, which probably is significantly different from the coupe. Comparing it to the M3 convertible, I found the 335is to be a lot more cushy overall, and I definitely prefer the more sporty character of the M3.

I did actually get to drive the Boxster S again today, this time pushing it harder, and I really loved it (even more than the Boxster Spyder and Boxster RS60). The handling is in a different league from my beloved C63 (which is no slouch either).

My wife prefers a gorgeous 911S cabriolet we saw in the showroom, but I think the Boxster is more fun to drive, not to mention more than $40K cheaper. To me, the only good reason to get the 911 would be that we could squeeze our daughter in the so-called "back seat" for local driving. The 911 obviously handles well too, but I still find the feel of the car a bit weird because of the rear engine layout; maybe it's something I'd get more used to with time.

[Dok Henz]

Originally Posted by erhanh

So they catch fire on schedule?

Great. Now there's decaf hospital coffee sprayed all over my monitor.

Dok

[KKM3]

I own both cars. A 2009 997s pdk and a 2011 m3 dct. The engine and transmission in the m3 are better IMO than the Porsche. It's too bad the motor is burdened by so much weight in the m3 because it is really a gem one of a kind engine and I will sorely miss it once someone takes over my lease.

[LarThaL]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Carrera S is in a different league performance and handling wise vs the M3.

I would disagree with this statement. I test drove a large number of cars before ordering my 2011 M3, including a 2009 Carrera S. It is not in a "different league". It is, overall, slightly more sporting in it's general character. This should come as no surprise. However, as a performance machine, it is no where near $50,000 better. That's the price difference of a comparably equipped new Carrera S and M3. Cars like the 911 turbo or Nissan GTR are in a "different league".

That said, I have yet to drive any car that provides the performance/practicality balance of an M3. Even as a play toy, which my M3 is for me, there is benefit to some degree of practicality so you can actually use it to do things that entail fun driving. A trip to the grocery store can be fun. Dropping my kids off at activities, then having a "spirited" drive back home on my own can be fun. At the same time, my wife and I can take nice weekend getaways to our vacation home in relative comfort for the 140 mile drive. I can carry a beach chair in the back for those mornings when I want to go for a fun drive near the ocean then sit out and have some coffee while I watch the waves and chill out.

If you buy a car with virtually no practicality, then you will also be very limited in how much you can actually drive it and enjoy it. That's fine if you want a garage queen, but not if you really want to enjoy driving your car.

[Brosef]

Originally Posted by VVG

I would disagree with this statement. I test drove a large number of cars before ordering my 2011 M3, including a 2009 Carrera S. It is not in a "different league". It is, overall, slightly more sporting in it's general character. This should come as no surprise. However, as a performance machine, it is no where near $50,000 better. That's the price difference of a comparably equipped new Carrera S and M3. Cars like the 911 turbo or Nissan GTR are in a "different league".

That said, I have yet to drive any car that provides the performance/practicality balance of an M3. Even as a play toy, which my M3 is for me, there is benefit to some degree of practicality so you can actually use it to do things that entail fun driving. A trip to the grocery store can be fun. Dropping my kids off at activities, then having a "spirited" drive back home on my own can be fun. At the same time, my wife and I can take nice weekend getaways to our vacation home in relative comfort for the 140 mile drive. I can carry a beach chair in the back for those mornings when I want to go for a fun drive near the ocean then sit out and have some coffee while I watch the waves and chill out.

If you buy a car with virtually no practicality, then you will also be very limited in how much you can actually drive it and enjoy it. That's fine if you want a garage queen, but not if you really want to enjoy driving your car.

I agree with this 100%. I've owned both and am currently driving a 2011 PDK C2S while I'm getting some work done on my M. The ONLY thing that is in a different league is the price tag. You need to step up to a GT3 or Turbo to play in a different league performance-wise.

[Dodge2Dub]

Originally Posted by VVG

That said, I have yet to drive any car that provides the performance/practicality balance of an M3. Even as a play toy, which my M3 is for me, there is benefit to some degree of practicality so you can actually use it to do things that entail fun driving. A trip to the grocery store can be fun. Dropping my kids off at activities, then having a "spirited" drive back home on my own can be fun. At the same time, my wife and I can take nice weekend getaways to our vacation home in relative comfort for the 140 mile drive. I can carry a beach chair in the back for those mornings when I want to go for a fun drive near the ocean then sit out and have some coffee while I watch the waves and chill out.

Church!

This is exactly how I personally enjoy my car. Congrats on living life to the fullest, even when just running to the package store!