Article in UK Autocar

[Giles]

I am new here but have picked up a lot of useful information - thanks.

I see from the Autocar website http://www.autocar.co.uk that this weeks edition of Autocar has a comparison of the New M3 vs Audi RS4. Do any of the UK members have a copy of this article, and would it be possible to post the contents if you do?

[Jason-NY]

It's just the "tech details". Same stuff every other mag has. It's just a catchy cover to make you think they've driven the car, which they haven't.

[Steved]

None of the magazines are due to drive a car yet, although usually the German magazines such as Auto Zeitung, Sport Auto etc get the jump on the english speaking magazines.

[Giles]

Was just wondering what they said about comparisons with the RS4 - I assume they reckon it will outperform the RS4 due to the weight and drivetrain advantages?

[hks786]

Originally Posted by Giles

Was just wondering what they said about comparisons with the RS4 - I assume they reckon it will outperform the RS4 due to the weight and drivetrain advantages?

You would be suprised, I didnt know this till yesterday, but the RS4 is actually 5kg lighter than the E92 M3! and check out my post from another thread:

"To clear the whole A5 vs. 3 series issue up, a lot of people say the S5 isnt as good as the M3, well look:

Audi A5 Coupe vs. BMW 3 Series Coupe
Audi S5 Coupe vs. BMW 335i Coupe
Audi RS5 Coupe vs. BMW M3 Coupe

Thats how simple it is. The S5 is not an M3 competitor, in my opinion, neither is the RS4. Well think about it, it IS a 4 door saloon. Which means:

Audi RS5 Coupe vs. BMW M3 Coupe
Audi RS4 Saloon vs. BMW M3 Saloon

Its really quite simple. Then I guess it just comes down to taste and performance. Lets be honest, both cars look great. I like the new 3 Coupe, looks good on the road, but I also think the A5/S5 design is great too. Cmon look at the S5 pic I attached. I also prefer the Audi interior, especially in the S5, look at the seats. I dunno though, they are both really great cars, but I seem to prefer the Audi at the mo. I wonder what the RS5 will be like compared to the new M3. I was looking on rsportcars.com and it says the RS4 is 5kg lighter than the E92 M3 ! This should be very interesting, dont forget the new IS-F too, I know everyone might not agree with the styling but looking at the engine, brakes etc. It sounds good, woulda been better if it was a manual though..."

[southlight]

Originally Posted by hks786

You would be suprised, I didnt know this till yesterday, but the RS4 is actually 5kg lighter than the E92 M3! and check out my post from another thread:

NO, you DID know it till yesterday. Don't know what's you source (rsportcars???), but you compared the weights based on different standards.

RS4 weight (DIN) 1650 kg
RS4 weight (EU) ?? (Haven't seen a official number yet)
RS4 testcar weight: 1721kg/1778kg

M3 weight (DIN) 1580 kg
M3 weight (EU) 1655 kg
M3 testcar weight ??

So we're talking about a weight advantage for the M3 of at least 70kg...

Or let me say it in your own words:

Originally Posted by hks786

Please check before you make incorrect statements...

Best regards, south

[Steved]

It really would be worth people remembering that 'very few' stats quoted on internet sites are fully reliable (whether that be magazines or comparison sites), you have to take manufacturer quoted figures and even then you need to factor in which standards they used to arrive at them.

For example Audi UK quote 1650kg for the RS4 Saloon (which will be a DIN standard) whereas Audi US quote 3957 lbs which is equivalent to 1799 kg.

So be careful.

Just out of interest, although the new M3 seems quite heavy it is still 50kg lighter than a 997 Turbo (when comparing DIN weights) - 1536kg vs 1585kg.

[hks786]

Originally Posted by southlight

NO, you DID know it till yesterday. Don't know what's you source (rsportcars???), but you compared the weights based on different standards.

RS4 weight (DIN) 1650 kg
RS4 weight (EU) ?? (Haven't seen a official number yet)
RS4 testcar weight: 1721kg/1778kg

M3 weight (DIN) 1580 kg
M3 weight (EU) 1655 kg
M3 testcar weight ??

So we're talking about a weight advantage for the M3 of at least 70kg...

Or let me say it in your own words:



Best regards, south

Well I'm sorry but I did check, infact I checked quite a few sites, and thats why I said that, sorry for any confusion caused but I genuinly thought it was lighter...

[southlight]

Originally Posted by hks786

Well I'm sorry but I did check, infact I checked quite a few sites, and thats why I said that, sorry for any confusion caused but I genuinly thought it was lighter...

No problem, but it would be sad if the M3 wasn't lighter. The RS4 does have the advantage of AWD, the M3 the advantage of weighing less...

Best regards, south

[hks786]

Originally Posted by southlight

No problem, but it would be sad if the M3 wasn't lighter. The RS4 does have the advantage of AWD, the M3 the advantage of weighing less...

Best regards, south

Yeah I was quite shocked that the RS4 could be lighter, anyway, would you not think the RS5 would be more of a competitor for the E92 M3 ? I thought the RS4 would be more of an E90 M3 competitor....

[southlight]

Originally Posted by hks786

Yeah I was quite shocked that the RS4 could be lighter, anyway, would you not think the RS5 would be more of a competitor for the E92 M3 ? I thought the RS4 would be more of an E90 M3 competitor....

You're basically right, but in the last years there was neither a RS5 nor a M3 sedan, so we all did already get used to the comparison between RS4 and M3 coupe. So the M3 will at first have to take on the RS4. IF it is better (who will determine this, the magazines??) than the RS4, the Audi devotees (OT: the guys that are so sure about the RS4 being far better than the "imitating" M3 - did anybody read the m3 thread on rs6.com??) will say: They didn't compare the real competitors WTF!
So afterwards the M3 Coupe will be compared to the RS5; this could be a closer race because of the RS5 being a whole generation newer than the RS4. BUT 1) Will the RS5 really be better?? and 2) When will it come out???

Finally I don't expect to big differences between E90 M3 and E92 M3 so a comparison between the E92 and RS4 will already give a good prediction for the E90. How much the RS5 can be better than the RS4? I don't know! But do you expect the RS5 being so much better?

Best regards, south

[hks786]

Originally Posted by southlight

You're basically right, but in the last years there was neither a RS5 nor a M3 sedan, so we all did already get used to the comparison between RS4 and M3 coupe. So the M3 will at first have to take on the RS4. IF it is better (who will determine this, the magazines??) than the RS4, the Audi devotees (OT: the guys that are so sure about the RS4 being far better than the "imitating" M3 - did anybody read the m3 thread on rs6.com??) will say: They didn't compare the real competitors WTF!
So afterwards the M3 Coupe will be compared to the RS5; this could be a closer race because of the RS5 being a whole generation newer than the RS4. BUT 1) Will the RS5 really be better?? and 2) When will it come out???

Finally I don't expect to big differences between E90 M3 and E92 M3 so a comparison between the E92 and RS4 will already give a good prediction for the E90. How much the RS5 can be better than the RS4? I don't know! But do you expect the RS5 being so much better?

Best regards, south

You made some really good points there. I hate when people are so loyal to a brand that they cant see that other people may offer something better...

I too think it will be a closer comparison between the RS5 and E92 M3 because they are both Coupes and the RS5 will be lighter than the RS4. I see what you mean about the E90 and E92 being similar, but would the E90 not be heavier? anyway only time will tell, I just really wanna see how all these machines perform...

[E36325is]

Originally Posted by Steved

Just out of interest, although the new M3 seems quite heavy it is still 50kg lighter than a 997 Turbo (when comparing DIN weights) - 1536kg vs 1585kg.

Yes it might be slightly lighter than a 997 turbo, but in terms of torque the M3 is nowhere near, and the E92 M3 is significantly heavier than a C2S!

[southlight]

Originally Posted by hks786

You made some really good points there. I hate when people are so loyal to a brand that they cant see that other people may offer something better...

I too think it will be a closer comparison between the RS5 and E92 M3 because they are both Coupes and the RS5 will be lighter than the RS4. I see what you mean about the E90 and E92 being similar, but would the E90 not be heavier? anyway only time will tell, I just really wanna see how all these machines perform...

The weight difference between E90 335i and E92 335i is as low as 10kg. The CFK roof which only the E92 M3 gets, saves 4kg. Some other minor things could change, so the E90 will be heavier, but not to much... I can only agree with you, exciting times with exciting machines...


Best regards, south

[Steved]

Originally Posted by E36325is

Yes it might be slightly lighter than a 997 turbo, but in terms of torque the M3 is nowhere near, and the E92 M3 is significantly heavier than a C2S!

Of course. But it provides some context, not in terms of acceleration but in terms of the overall feel/agility of the car, although clearly a 997 will have a lower CofG.

[M3_Mad]

Originally Posted by E36325is

Yes it might be slightly lighter than a 997 turbo, but in terms of torque the M3 is nowhere near, and the E92 M3 is significantly heavier than a C2S!

Yeah, but Porsche went way overboard with the turbo's on that thing. They constantly adjust to suit the engine revs, which makes a huge differance! I can't remember the exact figures but the engine can produce over 500 foot pounds of torque! Thats crazy! Whats even crazier is that it can put all of that power down without blowing up the tyres!

[The CSL]

It'd be nice if BMW could follow the GT3 route of having a 'clubsport' option, bringing lighter seats and other goodies, with iDrive and climate control removed. Something lighter and more for the enthusiast.

[M3onTwomps]

Originally Posted by The CSL

It'd be nice if BMW could follow the GT3 route of having a 'clubsport' option, bringing lighter seats and other goodies, with iDrive and climate control removed. Something lighter and more for the enthusiast.

CSL?

[The CSL]

Yes I know that's basically a CSL, but signs are pointing towards the best bits of that going on the normal car and besides, not everyone wants paddle-shift gearboxes.

I could have removed my dumb hat when I posted that though...

[888]

Don’t forget this article:

http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/carg...wer_shift.html from 2006.

Summary: The M3 is still the all-conquering action hero. Did I mention there's a new one later this year?

Trust me nothing (in its price range) will touch the new M3 for some time (IMO).

+ who cares what the others do the M3 will hold its value much better simply because it’s an M3 (ok flame me now)

[Steved]

Originally Posted by 888

Don’t forget this article:

http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/carg...wer_shift.html from 2006.

I worked with Jethro on an article comparing the new Cayenne Turbo vs ML63 last month. He's a down to earth kind of guy and wouldn't have rated the M3 CS so highly against the RS4 if it didn't warrant the praise.

It will be fun finding out how the E92 M3 compares with the M3 CS, but it couldn't be any worse could it?

[devo]

Originally Posted by M3_Mad

Yeah, but Porsche went way overboard with the turbo's on that thing. They constantly adjust to suit the engine revs, which makes a huge differance! I can't remember the exact figures but the engine can produce over 500 foot pounds of torque! Thats crazy! Whats even crazier is that it can put all of that power down without blowing up the tyres!

The 997 turbo is s great car, but the 502 ft/lbs of torque does not FEEL like 502 ft/lbs, which is kind of a disappointment. The turbo basically leap frogs from point to point in a less than dramatic fashion. Redline comes way too quickly.