anyone with DCT, use heeltoe or left foot brake

[SoreHead]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

If you were never sure about this, why didn't you seek clarification before going off about it? I simply don't understand spending the energy on the argument when you don't even have the experience and necessary knowledge. It makes it appear that you are more concerned about arguing and less concerned about presenting correct information. Can you see how one could get that impression?

Yes, you can turn it off. It's been said here now at least twice and probably more times. You just use S mode less than 4 (and it may well work in D also - SFP or Joe can pipe in on that one). It waits a bit and lets the clutch out slowly (the speed of these things determined by the exact mode you are in).

I didn't waste any energy and didn't argue. I simply made a statement which I still believe to be true and which you haven't proved wrong yet. You seem to be getting uppity though. And not just with me I see. You also mention below that heel toe with DCT is used to smooth up shifts?? I presume you meant down shifts or are you introducing some totally new form of driving where you hit the brakes on ever change up or down?

My points are still relevant regardless of the blip off or on. Why not use your left foot for braking if you have no clutch?? It makes far more sense. Heel toe is required as you are using your left foot for the clutch and is far too complicated for anyone this side of a pro to even try to claim they can do better than the computer on the DCT box. Why would you introduce unnecessary complication to the process?

As for the mode 4 or less. If you're driving in a way that you think requires heel toe then why are you driving in a softer mode in the first place? It makes even less sense the more you say it.

I'm still waiting for a professional instructional site that mentions heel toe for DCT/SMG/Auto boxes?

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by anucci

The only time I left foot brake is in a kart.

You don't left foot brake your Formula One car?


CA

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by SoreHead

I didn't waste any energy and didn't argue. I simply made a statement which I still believe to be true and which you haven't proved wrong yet. You seem to be getting uppity though. And not just with me I see. You also mention below that heel toe with DCT is used to smooth up shifts?? I presume you meant down shifts or are you introducing some totally new form of driving where you hit the brakes on ever change up or down?

My points are still relevant regardless of the blip off or on. Why not use your left foot for braking if you have no clutch?? It makes far more sense. Heel toe is required as you are using your left foot for the clutch and is far too complicated for anyone this side of a pro to even try to claim they can do better than the computer on the DCT box. Why would you introduce unnecessary complication to the process?

As for the mode 4 or less. If you're driving in a way that you think requires heel toe then why are you driving in a softer mode in the first place? It makes even less sense the more you say it.

I'm still waiting for a professional instructional site that mentions heel toe for DCT/SMG/Auto boxes?

It would seem to me that a paddle shifted transmission that does not perfectly rev match a downshift is not a particularly well sorted out design.

If I have to manually blip the accelerator I would prefer to have the third pedal to manually control the clutch.

CA

[SoreHead]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

It would seem to me that a paddle shifted transmission that does not perfectly rev match a downshift is not a particularly well sorted out design.

If I have to manually blip the accelerator I would prefer to have the third pedal tp control the clutch.

CA

Thank you. The simple, concise, sound of reason at last.

I just want them to show me a professional that applies a technique similar to heel toe (it's not heel toe) to a DCT/SMG/Auto and I'll put my hands up and say I stand corrected. Otherwise it's still just lunacy IMHO.

Don't get me wrong. Honestly. If it makes you happy go to it and all the best to you.

I'm just utterly confused as to the whole point of it all.

[SenorFunkyPants]

It has been explained several times...the problem is that without experience of the DCT you can't properly comprehend whats happening. Plus why so precious over heel & toe? its not like its some fabled talent, its just pressing the brake and accelerator at the same time.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by SoreHead

I didn't waste any energy and didn't argue.

You did use energy though, which is just what I said. You are also arguing, by definition. You are engaging in a conflict-laiden discussion and presenting points and counter points, so yep, that's an argument.

You seem to be getting uppity though. And not just with me I see.

Well, hey, ya know, from your POV its a perfectly valid observation. And its an understandable one from someone who - from my also perfectly valid POV - is being deliberately contrary, difficult, misleading and unreasonable.

The thing is I don't really want to get into a pissing match on tangents like the ones you are try to go off on here. It just isn't relevant to the topic and its not really adding to the the thread. So what do you say we bury the hatchet as far as who has the least tolerable demeanor in the thread and what the meaning of "is" is, and just stick to the real disagreement at hand? Agree?

I simply made a statement which I still believe to be true and which you haven't proved wrong yet.

Either you are wrong or the responses from Joe, SFP, and waremark - all respected forum members who actually own M3's with M-DCT - are fabrications. So, is that it then? They are all lying?

Recall that you said:

"You simply can't heel toe with DCT or Auto. By it's very definition it's rev matching when you apply the clutch so as to smooth the transition between the gears. You have no clutch so therefore you can't do it. END OF STORY."

The problem is, it's total nonsense.

- "You simply can't heel toe with DCT" - wrong.
- "By it's very definition..." - you need to reread that defintion. Heel toe is applying the throttle and brake simultaneously. Heel on throttle, toe on brake, hence Heel-toe.
- "You have no clutch" Really? DCT = Dual Clutch Transmission. We've got two clutches. You aren't honestly going to say that is wrong are you? Seriously, man?

You also mention below that...

Not true at all. You didn't cite my post so I have no idea which part you are getting confused on, but you are most definitely confused.

Why not use...
Why would you introduce...

Already answered more than once in the thread.

I'm still waiting for a professional instructional site that mentions heel toe for DCT/SMG/Auto boxes?

Well keep waiting then.

But if you really are interested in proof as you claim to be, just go test drive a DCT car and prove it to yourself, or better yet, find someone who owns and is familiar with it so they can show it to you personally.

[mrkbbd]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Doesn't the DCT shift in something like 100ms? How do you time the blip?

CA

S1 is the slowest upshift/downshift, and the downshift has a noticeable time delay, there is plenty of time, even w/o the power button engaged.

[mrkbbd]

Originally Posted by ssh229

here yo go...

BMW M-School teaches you to do it with the top of your right foot, not the bottom, essentially covering the brake and throttle with your right foot and putting pressure on one-side or the other

[mrkbbd]

Originally Posted by MysticBlue

The DCT does not need to be blipped or rev matched on downshifts... on the street or on the track. It works perfectly. Try it sometime. 4th gear, full throttle, approaching redline and appoaching the end of the straight. Off the throttle and on the brakes, hard. Threshold braking, give it half a heartbeat and downshift. It rev matches right back up to 7k or 8k, or whatever it needs to... perfect. No upset, no rear wheel hop. I've done heel and toe in a manual, and even got where I could get it right some of the time, and been in the car with an instructor who got it right most of the time. DCT does it better than right every time, it does it perfect, no blipping by driver needed. (I use S4 on the track, S3 if it's wet).

This is not daily driving, how often are you doing a 5000 rpm 4th gear --> 6500 rpm 3rd gear in traffic? It's much easier for the car to blip the throttle at higher RPMs b/c there is more power / quicker response from the motor, what happens when you're at 2000 RPM in 3rd, slow and want 2nd, even in S6 mode the car rarely blips the throttle enough, it needs help down low where the car is not designed to be driven

[mrkbbd]

Originally Posted by SoreHead

I'm not saying the thread is stupid. It's a question and there should be no stupid questions (I say SHOULD)

However. You simply can't heel toe with DCT or Auto. By it's very definition it's rev matching when you apply the clutch so as to smooth the transition between the gears. You have no clutch so therefore you can't do it. END OF STORY.
You can stamp on the brake and blip the throttle before you pull the paddle but all you're doing is wasting time. You can't do it faster than the system does it itself.

QUOTE: "A heel-and-toe downshift refers to a specific technique used to downshift a manual transmission car. It might seem bizarre to the general populace, but racecar drivers use it all the time. Once mastered, the heel-and-toe downshift offers the benefits of reduced vehicle wear-and-tear, better driver control and faster lap times on a racetrack."

http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/how...2/article.html

So make all the remarks about us not knowing what we're talking about you like but the fact is that it's you that obviously has no clue what you're talking about if you say that you are heel toeing in a DCT/SMG/Auto car.

Not true in the least, even when driving my X5 hard (steptronic transmission) if you give it some gas in between shifts (I.e. heel-toe) it will downshift a lot faster since it doesn't have throttle blip software the car has to wait for the momentum of the car to pull the engine up to the required RPM to match the lower gear, which takes a significant amount of time considering torque converters slip so much. Therefore, a faster downshift is possible in an automatic with a heal-toe - like technique

[Stunnerable]

Originally Posted by mrkbbd

Not true in the least, even when driving my X5 hard (steptronic transmission) if you give it some gas in between shifts (I.e. heel-toe) it will downshift a lot faster since it doesn't have throttle blip software the car has to wait for the momentum of the car to pull the engine up to the required RPM to match the lower gear, which takes a significant amount of time considering torque converters slip so much. Therefore, a faster downshift is possible in an automatic with a heal-toe - like technique

I hope your just stirring the pot dude.

What your referring to in your X5 is simply applying enough gas so the cars computer signals a gear change. It is in NO WAY heel and toeing. Have you seen a video of this process? You brake coming into a turn.. As your braking your down shifting to keep the engine "on cam" so by the time your hitting the apex you roll onto the gas and power out of the turn. This process should be very smooth. In essence your doing several important things to the car for the fastest lap times possible. You goal is to not disrupt the composure of the car.. No sudden movements. Heel and toeing is part of this process and it really does take skill and/or practice to master. You can't heel and toe an automatic.

I used to own a 325i auto and when I wanted a fast gear change coming into a turn I'd keep it in Sport mode and very quickly floor it.. I mean a fraction of a second.. This would make the car go into it's lowest gear for that particular speed. That’s not heel and toeing pal.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I've never really messed around with the heel-toe in S1/2/3 as you've described in the past, but I remain curious. Some day I'll give it a try.

Well, I took a longer route to work today just to see what the fuss is about. It definitely works as claimed by several folks in this thread. It's kinda fun to mess with a little, but I'd probably never adopt it as regular practice. I love my S5 and 8k RPM downshifts too much.

Originally Posted by captainaudio

It would seem to me that a paddle shifted transmission that does not perfectly rev match a downshift is not a particularly well sorted out design.

Not so good, right? The thing is, it'll rev match perfectly if you put in the higher Drivelogic modes. So its actually a really good transmission. And very flexible. You should really try it out sometime, I think you'd come away very impressed. Is it perfect in every way? No definitely not - just about anyone who's been on the forum for awhile knows about the whole low speed lag soap opera. It's still a great effort though.

If I have to manually blip the accelerator I would prefer to have the third pedal to manually control the clutch.

Me too. That's why I really only use S5 and S6 in the M3. It does the rev-matching for me. If I want to use a clutch, I hope in the 335i.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by mrkbbd

Not true in the least, even when driving my X5 hard (steptronic transmission) if you give it some gas in between shifts (I.e. heel-toe) it will downshift a lot faster since it doesn't have throttle blip software the car has to wait for the momentum of the car to pull the engine up to the required RPM to match the lower gear, which takes a significant amount of time considering torque converters slip so much. Therefore, a faster downshift is possible in an automatic with a heal-toe - like technique

The ZF transmission in the 335i rev matches downshifts in manual mode. Additionally the torque convertor on that transmission is locked up as soon as the car gets moving.

On the occaissions that I have driven a DCT M3 it also rev matched the downshifts perfectly.

CA

[SoreHead]

Originally Posted by mrkbbd

Therefore, a faster downshift is possible in an automatic with a heal-toe - like technique

LIKE being the operative word. Not actual, as I've continually pointed out through actual articles. There is a left foot using the clutch during heel toe.

[SoreHead]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

In short, using heel-toe with the DCT allows you to get the smooth upshifts of the more gentle shift modes in tandem with the rev-matching that is only provided by the more aggressive Drivelogic modes.

From post 86 I believe.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

You did use energy though, which is just what I said. You are also arguing, by definition. You are engaging in a conflict-laiden discussion and presenting points and counter points, so yep, that's an argument.

Maybe in your little angry world. I would call it a discussion until there are insults being thrown.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Well, hey, ya know, from your POV its a perfectly valid observation. And its an understandable one from someone who - from my also perfectly valid POV - is being deliberately contrary, difficult, misleading and unreasonable.

Please expand.
Contrary? In that I have an opposite opinion to you I guess so. That's how this works. I'm asking people to explain why their even doing it and not using their left foot as it's free anyway and would be a hell of a lot easier than trying to use your right foot alone.
Difficult? Why? because I'm not just agreeing with you?
Misleading? By including facts and links to actual experts instructional sites? Something you still haven't managed to do as there are none to support your claims. I have said nothing whatsoever misleading so try to keep to the facts.
Unreasonable? Same as misleading.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

The thing is I don't really want to get into a pissing match on tangents like the ones you are try to go off on here. It just isn't relevant to the topic and its not really adding to the the thread. So what do you say we bury the hatchet as far as who has the least tolerable demeanor in the thread and what the meaning of "is" is, and just stick to the real disagreement at hand? Agree?

What tangent would that be? The one that involves discussing the pros and cons of the topic at hand?

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Either you are wrong or the responses from Joe, SFP, and waremark - all respected forum members who actually own M3's with M-DCT - are fabrications. So, is that it then? They are all lying?

Not even close. And trying to drag other people in to be your buddies in, what you're calling, an argument is a little infantile. I have absolutely no doubt they are doing exactly what they say they are doing. I'm trying to understand why and pointing out it's not heel toe but in fact a similar thing to it which seems to be adding unnecessary complication to something that doesn't need to be complicated. That's how discussions work. Who's being misleading now? I should also point out that people doing something does not make it correct or better. If it's a generally accepted technique in a professional motorsport that would be different but some blokes that happen to own a car doing something doesn't give it any validity. Having said that if they're happy doing it then go for it.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

"You simply can't heel toe with DCT or Auto. By it's very definition it's rev matching when you apply the clutch so as to smooth the transition between the gears. You have no clutch so therefore you can't do it. END OF STORY."

The problem is, it's total nonsense.

- "You simply can't heel toe with DCT" - wrong.
- "By it's very definition..." - you need to reread that defintion. Heel toe is applying the throttle and brake simultaneously. Heel on throttle, toe on brake, hence Heel-toe.
- "You have no clutch" Really? DCT = Dual Clutch Transmission. We've got two clutches. You aren't honestly going to say that is wrong are you? Seriously, man?

Yeh yeh. Very smart
I won't even acknowledge that one with a response.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Well keep waiting then.

The Fox News answer to proof.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

But if you really are interested in proof as you claim to be, just go test drive a DCT car and prove it to yourself, or better yet, find someone who owns and is familiar with it so they can show it to you personally.

You really have missed the point here completely. The point is you're trying to imitate a technique that is required for rev matching a manual car in a car that is capable of doing it better than you can once you're using the correct setting. If you're not in one of the harder settings then why are you doing what is by it's very nature more hardcore driving?
Now assuming you have decided you want to stay in S2 or whatever and still do it then it makes far more sense to use your unemployed left foot to do it. Why are you not? It's a question. To LEARN. Nothing more and nothing less.

And just to make it clear again. Using your heel and toe does not make it hell toeing as the technique requires a clutch pedal as shown over and over again. It's a DCT version of it. Not it.

[col.faith]

sigh... there's a reason why professional race cars use manual gear boxes and not automatic. Go figure...

[yellowstone]

Originally Posted by col.faith

sigh... there's a reason why professional race cars use manual gear boxes and not automatic. Go figure...

What type of transmission does a formula 1 cars use? I thought it was semi automatic/smg.

[EJ_92606]

Originally Posted by col.faith

sigh... there's a reason why professional race cars use manual gear boxes and not automatic. Go figure...

Watch F1 much?

[col.faith]

Originally Posted by EJ_92606

Watch F1 much?

I hope you know that F1 gearboxes are semi-automatic / semi-manual with NO syncromesh? Which is why techniques like double clutch and heel-toe will come into play. And you are comparing this with an automatic transmission? Stepping on the brake and gas together is pointless on a regular automatic transmission because the blip is applied when the clutch is disengaged, the guy driving an automatic would have no idea when the computer is disengaging the clutch.

[Stunnerable]

Originally Posted by col.faith

I hope you know that F1 gearboxes are semi-automatic with NO syncromesh? Which is why techniques like double clutch and heel-toe will come into play. And you are comparing this with an automatic transmission? Stepping on the brake and gas together is pointless on a regular automatic transmission because the blip is applied when the clutch is disengaged, the guy driving an automatic would have no idea when the computer is disengaging the clutch.

An "automatic" doesn't have a clutch. It has a torque converter.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by SoreHead

I would call it a discussion until there are insults being thrown.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/argument

a discussion involving differing points of view; debate

You honestly want to argue about whether you are in an argument? Come on now, you have to admit the irony there is pretty comedic.

Maybe in your little angry world

Like I said, I am not gonna participate in your little side show and pointless off-topic back-and-forth and mudslinging.

So, congratulations - you can piss further than me.

From post 86 I believe.

I didn't say anything about rev matching an upshift though. I said that the lower DCT modes give you a smoother upshift.

Now assuming you have decided you want to stay in S2 or whatever and still do it then it makes far more sense to use your unemployed left foot to do it. Why are you not? It's a question. To LEARN. Nothing more and nothing less.

Kind of strange that you are trying to learn from someone whom you just spent hundreds of words trying to discredit though.

Anyway, that question was already answered clearly by Joe. And I second him on it.

I'll also add these:
- If someone already knows how to heel-toe from driving a manual its perfectly natural that they would just continue to use that same procedure.
- Simple preference. The exact same reason why someone would buy a 6MT when a DCT will shift faster and with greater ease.

And just to make it clear again. Using your heel and toe does not make it hell toeing as the technique requires a clutch pedal as shown over and over again.

Clearly, I don't agree at all for reasons I already intimated. You are not going to change my opinion on it. Maybe instead of getting all "mad0259" (in your angry little world? ) you should just accept it, agree to disagree, and move on. Just a thought.

It's a DCT version of it. Not it.

Its a DCT version of heel-toe, yep.

[EJ_92606]

Originally Posted by col.faith

I hope you know that F1 gearboxes are semi-automatic / semi-manual with NO syncromesh? Which is why techniques like double clutch and heel-toe will come into play. And you are comparing this with an automatic transmission? Stepping on the brake and gas together is pointless on a regular automatic transmission because the blip is applied when the clutch is disengaged, the guy driving an automatic would have no idea when the computer is disengaging the clutch.

Semi-automatic? No, it shifts itself and therefore its an automatic in my book.