///M Pure?

[Radiation Joe]

Originally Posted by Serious

So basically what you're all saying is that a car you've never even seen in real life drives like crap. OK.

Funny thing is as much B.S. as most of you talk, 70% of you will be out slapping down deposit checks for f30 m3's once evo and autocar start publishing sub 8min Nring times and ripping off 4.1 sec 0-60 runs.
Then again I would be pretty pissed off too if I paid $70k for a car and then BMW slapped basically all the important bits (sans the engine) into a lighter more nimble chassis and charged nearly 20% less for it.

^^^What he said^^^

Regarding the non-M engines:
Technology in normal engines has surpassed the best high performance technology of just a few years ago. It is highly unnecessary to put undue effort into building specialized engines when the engine in a grocery getter can be tuned to better than 1 hp/liter with ungodly torque figures.

Don't get me wrong. I am strongly in the camp of ///M stands for ///Marketing. But go look at the Porsche forums and see the $hitstorm that occured after Porsche "dumbed down" their engines to reduce cost. These are mass marketed cars, and are subject to mass marketing influences.

[ring007]

I attended a "tech session" at my local dealership this weekend. The BMWNA presenter said no more "M speicific" motors. Garching will now only tweak existing motors used in the non-M series. e.g. up the boost of the TT motors coming for increased "M" performance, high reving V8 and V10's are disappearing fast (a long with my enthusiasm for M cars ).

The 1M and upcoming M5 are both perfect examples of the new BMW mantra.

Looks like I'll be holding onto my '11 ZCP for a long, long time.

Originally Posted by checkmate

For the past a few months-prior and during the release of the 1M coupe...Dr. Kay Segler kept touting that the car was "///M Pure".

This got me thinking...how do we define past,present and future cars from ///M Gmbh as ///M Pure?

With the current direction of BMW towards FI engines and competitors playing catch up with decent imitations...what are the variables that will distinguish future cars wearing the ///M badge as ///M Pure?

[ring007]

Unfortunately you are correct. However, BMW is around to make money. Stop making cars that your customers want and you stop making money. BMW doesn't operate in a vacuum. Pride and arrogance represented by this kind of thinking is the beginning of the end for any company that stops providing what the customers want.

I'm sure in the end BMW will sell more cars to less enthusiastic customers and make more money and all of the people that demand NA M motors will move onto Porsche and Ferrari for their performance cars. BMW is on a slipperly slope by watering down the M brand. Soon they will be the German/premium equivalent of Toyota, e.g. Lexus and produce lots of fine cars used for transportation but no great cars used for driving.

Originally Posted by Rshane

M ıs whatever BMW wants ıt to be, not what enthusıasts say ıt should be.

[ss134]

An M car should feel special when you drive it and leave you with a big s**t eating grin long after you have climbed out of the drivers seat. It should call you in the early hours to go for a spin even though you've got no where you need to go. It should sound and feel like a sportscar to drive but become a regular car when you want it to.............of course the high revving NA concept has been an M trademark for years but times are changing and BMW have to change with them or be left behing by the competition.
I will reserve judgement on the 1M and future M cars until i have driven them - if all of my above criteria are met then it is a real M car, if not i'll be looking elsewhere for my cars.

[Eau Rouge]

Originally Posted by ring007

Unfortunately you are correct. However, BMW is around to make money. Stop making cars that your customers want and you stop making money. BMW doesn't operate in a vacuum. Pride and arrogance represented by this kind of thinking is the beginning of the end for any company that stops providing what the customers want.

I'm sure in the end BMW will sell more cars to less enthusiastic customers and make more money and all of the people that demand NA M motors will move onto Porsche and Ferrari for their performance cars. BMW is on a slipperly slope by watering down the M brand. Soon they will be the German/premium equivalent of Toyota, e.g. Lexus and produce lots of fine cars used for transportation but no great cars used for driving.

This ^^^

Once one's products can no longer point to X, Y or Z as aspects that set them apart from that offered by one's competition, what exactly will compel the very particular type consumer to continue buying? Ironically, the blurring of what otherwise had been clear differences between one's products and those of the competition will also be problematic where the goal is to foster brand loyalty among "new customers", those brought into the fold thanks to the producer's new marketing direction, because these "new customers" will likely be less enthusiastic about a brand that offers them less to be enthusiastic about in the first place.

[aus]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I think a lot of the fear here starts with the N54, which is a good engine. But ///M cars should have something great! During back to back test drives, the N54 never put a smile on my face...felt kind of blah. The M3 however is SO different.

The engine is not everything but it does account for a lot of what makes the car...its the heart. I really wish the X5/6 M manifold would have trickled down to this 1M which would been a distinguishing feature of this car.

The only thing really special about the manifold was it allowed exhaust gas from both banks to hit each turbo to reduce drag. The down pipes would be a MESS in an I6 engine to do that.

Originally Posted by Serious

So basically what you're all saying is that a car you've never even seen in real life drives like crap. OK.

Funny thing is as much B.S. as most of you talk, 70% of you will be out slapping down deposit checks for f30 m3's once evo and autocar start publishing sub 8min Nring times and ripping off 4.1 sec 0-60 runs.
Then again I would be pretty pissed off too if I paid $70k for a car and then BMW slapped basically all the important bits (sans the engine) into a lighter more nimble chassis and charged nearly 20% less for it.

No 1M envy at all here. It's not an M engine. I could get a 135/335 and install the M3 suspension arms/bushings, and a JB piggy or GIAC flash loader, and be KILLING the 1M for a lot less money. I would have plenty of money for coils, Wavetrak LSD, wheels and a real oil cooler and larger intercooler so the engine wouldn't go into limp mode after 2-3 hot laps on a track like the N54 does. Ask chillicheese about that.

.

[wrh3]

Yeah, I had a modded 335 that I dumped for the M3- no comparison. The N54 is NOT an M motor

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by aus

The only thing really special about the manifold was it allowed exhaust gas from both banks to hit each turbo to reduce drag. The down pipes would be a MESS in an I6 engine to do that.




No 1M envy at all here. It's not an M engine. I could get a 135/335 and install the M3 suspension arms/bushings, and a JB piggy or GIAC flash loader, and be KILLING the 1M for a lot less money. I would have plenty of money for coils, Wavetrak LSD, wheels and a real oil cooler and larger intercooler so the engine wouldn't go into limp mode after 2-3 hot laps on a track like the N54 does. Ask chillicheese about that.

.

Apparently BMW has a patent pending for that manifold...not sure how revolutionary it will be. I'm sure it will trickle down into other BMW and M turbo engines. I think the other bonus is that it doesn't fall off on the top end like the N55.

The good thing about the 1M which will be very hard to economically replicate is the wider body work...and you have a warranty.

You're right. $50k for any 1 series is smoking crack, especially with an ordinary N54. I might have jumped at a 1M with an S65 though.

[brizzom]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Apparently BMW has a patent pending for that manifold...not sure how revolutionary it will be. I'm sure it will trickle down into other BMW and M turbo engines. I think the other bonus is that it doesn't fall off on the top end like the N55.

The good thing about the 1M which will be very hard to economically replicate is the wider body work...and you have a warranty.

You're right. $50k for any 1 series is smoking crack, especially with an ordinary N54. I might have jumped at a 1M with an S65 though.

I would've been EXTREMELY impressed with the 1M if it came with the S65 or any other unique motor. Instead I feel like it's just a 135is+.. not that there's anything wrong with that. It's still a nice package, just nothing special.

[Rshane]

Originally Posted by ring007

Unfortunately you are correct. However, BMW is around to make money. Stop making cars that your customers want and you stop making money. BMW doesn't operate in a vacuum. Pride and arrogance represented by this kind of thinking is the beginning of the end for any company that stops providing what the customers want.

I'm sure in the end BMW will sell more cars to less enthusiastic customers and make more money and all of the people that demand NA M motors will move onto Porsche and Ferrari for their performance cars. BMW is on a slipperly slope by watering down the M brand. Soon they will be the German/premium equivalent of Toyota, e.g. Lexus and produce lots of fine cars used for transportation but no great cars used for driving.

I agree 100%. However, as much as ıt may suck, BMW ıs ın the automotıve busıness to make money, and the M dıvısıon ıs not where the bulk of theır profıts come from...ın fact ıt probably hurts the overall bottom lıne...due to research and development costs that go ınto buıldıng an M motor/car. In todays world where economıes are bad and the world seems to be on thıs 'go green' kıck BMW has been forced ınto a corner. Who do you thınk makes the bıggest ımpact to BMW´s bottom lıne...the majorıty of people who want a nıce luxury 3, 5, 7, or X serıes...or the M enthusıaıst? As much as ıt may suck, BMW does not need the M fans ın order to make a profıt...they do need the average Joe drıver.

Just my poınt of vıew, and I am by no means sayıng ıt ıs the correct one, but my experıence has taught me profıt ıs always comes fırst ın bıg busıness.

[Serious]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

You're right. $50k for any 1 series is smoking crack, especially with an ordinary N54. I might have jumped at a 1M with an S65 though.

and $75k for a loaded m3 is a good value? PLEASE.

[ihyln]

Originally Posted by Serious

and $75k for a loaded m3 is a good value? PLEASE.

Uh, it is. If you want overpriced and underperforming Audi is still holding the torch.

[Radiation Joe]

Originally Posted by ihyln

Uh, it is. If you want overpriced and underperforming Audi is still holding the torch.

Ha! I didn't think you were one of the fanboys. There is no shortage of folks willing to plop down the dough to pick up one of those overpriced and underperforming Audis, myself included.

You know the same could be said by the Mustang and Corvette crowd regarding the cost/performance ratio of BMWs/Porsches/Ferraris.

[aus]

Originally Posted by Radiation Joe

Ha! I didn't think you were one of the fanboys. There is no shortage of folks willing to plop down the dough to pick up one of those overpriced and underperforming Audis, myself included.

You know the same could be said by the Mustang and Corvette crowd regarding the cost/performance ratio of BMWs/Porsches/Ferraris.

No question about that. That new Ford 302 BOSS is what BMW //M used to be. I just saw a show on Speed on the develpment of the car and the M3 was their target. The 302 can be had with a roll cage!! And it has real brakes.
Who would have thought that Ford makes a better performance car than BMW!!!

When comared to the Euro's, the M3 is still a pretty good value, IMO. For $70k, you could only get a Cayman from Porsche and you're somewhere between an S5 and RS5.

[Radiation Joe]

Originally Posted by aus

...
When comared to the Euro's, the M3 is still a pretty good value, IMO. For $70k, you could only get a Cayman from Porsche and you're somewhere between an S5 and RS5.

I agree. That's why I'm driving an M3.

[SchnellM3]

Everyone here has made great points that I have to agree with, didn't read page two though. All I can say is that the essence of M will be lost with the future cars. Even though I will most likely continue to buy them they will not be the true enthusiasts cars, that we all fell in love with.

I'm curious and sad to see what the future holds (hopefully the X3 M will not be in it)

[330CIZHP]

This guy has got it right. My props to him. Perfect description of pure M cars and heritage.

Dr. Kay Segler is a clown. Don't pay any attention to what he says. He throws in these marketing cliched phrases for publicity, but the product should talk itself.

Segler is the guy who said "X5 M and X6 M owners are very demanding of their M cars".

Add to this what I heard the M3 chief M engineer said "Has to have low mass inertia so that you can crank up the engine to rev limiter easily".

Simple

You modify a 135 M sport and you could end up with a car that drives very similar to a 1-M.

You can modify a 335 M sport all you want, but you will never get it to feel like an M car, which is M3 in this case.

/Thread.

Originally Posted by mb1

High Revving, NA powerful motors with a high degree of communication between the car and the driver. Cars that can easily be driven to the grocery store then to the race track. Cars that can be run within an inch of their life and be enjoyable at that limit.

M cars die with the e92 and even as much as I love the e92 and will probably have one, saying that it was pure in terms of driving experience was starting to be a stretch.

Kay Segler is off his rocker. We need to send him packing back to Mini where turbo charging / super charging is an asset. He doesn't respect the brand and what it stands for. Let's get Ludwig Willisch back in charge of M GmbH.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by aus

When comared to the Euro's, the M3 is still a pretty good value, IMO. For $70k, you could only get a Cayman from Porsche and you're somewhere between an S5 and RS5.

You can get a stripped down Porsche Cayman...not necessarily a bad thing. But you can't take the family out in a Porsche Cayman.

I've done the comparisons with Evo's and STI's...and the M3 is the least expensive car in base form in this segment that you can really take to the track and not have issues minus the brakes. Brakes are a relatively inexpensive and easy fix (fluid and pads).