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01-27-2014, 09:47 AM | #89 | |
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I agree with you 100%- as I would expect to since you have a sweet picture of your prepped e46, best profile of the 2000s... but us 'enthusiast' on the board (many like myself will probably never buy a brand new anything because we are too pragmatic to pay for the largest chunk of depreciation that comes along with buying a new car) are a very fickle group. Case in point.. the posts regarding the hopefully upcoming M2. The same people that want a 'raw' M2 are also saying they don't want a rough 4 banger. I personally love the idea of a high strung, light weight 's25' or whatever it might be called over the nose. I had an hour long debate with my father on the way home from Detroit auto show through southern Ontario (god bless their exceptional roads) about how I think a 525hp, big cam/big displacement Z06 would be "better" (My subjective feeling) than the blown 625hp Z06 that will be released. Let's face it, even talented drivers who respect their abilities and the laws of physics will have more power on tap that they can handle with 625 hp. It's a street car, wtf?! By the way, does anyone remember when the Z06 had like 50 hp more than the already capable standard vette motor.... At the end of the day, except in rare instances of enthusiast groups like our cca 'forcing' bmw to make a stick shift M5 for the US (I wish the same vigor was there for a stick shift, non xi version of the 3er wagon 328 or 335, either way I'd be pleased) we pretty much have to accept what we are given. But that's ok, because modern cars are very good, other than all the forced induction and two pedal setups. Even with that, FI cars are becoming better, more responsive and transparent in their power delivery. Again, just the observations of somebody too cheap to actually buy a new car, so I guess I really don't have the skin in the game required to critique them lol
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01-27-2014, 10:13 AM | #90 | |
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M should be instantaneous power when you need it, not 0.5 seconds later... If you want to turbo an M car to try match your competitions power find a way to do it without the lag... |
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01-27-2014, 10:24 AM | #91 | |
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01-27-2014, 11:03 AM | #92 | |
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Also, simply matching horsepower or even having more horsepower does not make a better car. There are many beasts out there that have more power than an M car but handle poorly or provide poor feedback and throttle response. What made BMW and M cars special were exactly those little things you think don't matter. Steering feel and precision is what set them apart for years. Brake modulation was always a high point for BMW. Throttle response was also a high point now they are going with the same stuff as everyone else.. Dull steering feel, all turbo motors with slower throttle response and not a single Normally aspirated M option for the enthusiast. Why can Ford make a N/A Mustang or Subaru and Toyota an N/A FRS/BRZ. Even new Lexus competition has an N/A motor! You and the majority might not care and this is why BMW and the M brand has gotten to this point. |
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01-27-2014, 11:19 AM | #93 | |
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Top level motorsports is defined by the driver, on track safety, cost, and aerodynamics. We no longer live in the era where road going 911s, Cobras, FIAT Abarths, and M3s are essentially the same car used on the race track. While there is still some trickle down effect from motorsports to mainline street cars (S65 engine, CCB, etc. are some examples), these items don't define what an M car or sports car in general is supposed to be. |
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01-27-2014, 01:12 PM | #95 | |
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The e82 128i was the last great BMW made. With disa/headers/tune, 1M subframe bushings, and light weight wheels/tires (taking the car to 3100 lb curb weight, ~300 hp, factory non turbo car reliability), it was truly outstanding. Sadly somehow nobody noticed. I think what this article is really missing is... we (well, at least I) didn't come to M because I want an M. I want: -high build quality -high revving, NA engine -rwd -manual (not added as an afterthought) -reasonable weight for the practicality -communicative steering -visceral driving experience The F8X will be rwd, which is nice, but I bet next gen we get awd. It's amiable in 6mt, but every time they do manual lately it's an after thought. The only place the car is exceptional (IMO) is weight for the practicality. Even there, they did it the aftermarket way instead of the OE way (alu chassis, ala e60 M5), so there won't be much in the way of making it lighter aftermarket. So, yeah... In 2002, I wanted to own every product that BMW made. In 2014 I want to own every product BMW made in 2002. Purchased two new M3s in my lifetime (performance center delivery on both), and don't see myself ever buying a new BMW again. What's more upsetting, though, is there isn't really a replacement for what BMW used to be.
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01-27-2014, 01:19 PM | #96 | |
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The McLaren F1 engine is euro e36 M3 engine tech. It shares heads, cams, vanos, pistons, rods, and valves with the e36 M3 euro engines. The S54 is an evolution/improvement of the euro e36 M3 engine, so if anything it has more in common with it than the S65 and S85. The S65 and S85 have no parts in common with the McLaren F1 engine and really had nothing in common with it other than a similar design philosophy (high rev high specific output).
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01-27-2014, 02:24 PM | #98 |
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Only M cars I can think of that were offered without radio/AC (though both had them as options) are the CSL and GTS.-- fairly modern
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01-27-2014, 02:32 PM | #99 | |
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01-27-2014, 04:28 PM | #101 |
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If any car was the "last" of the "real" "m cars", it is ours.
N/A ftw. 1M, M5/6 (F10), and even the X5/6M are all turbo sellouts. Then again... Skyline is FI til they die. So maybe the M Division should start learning from them. |
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01-27-2014, 05:01 PM | #102 |
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To me an M car is about the total package not just one or two specific areas like engine or handling.
M car has always been about having a car you can take to track and also pick up groceries and does both really really well. Other M Sport or IS models can do that as well but not quiet as well. I don't mind them doing M Sport or other models at all, they need more $ so they can give us the good stuff we want.
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01-27-2014, 05:04 PM | #103 |
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Nice read
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01-27-2014, 05:18 PM | #104 | |
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E90 M3...Starbucks medium coffee (WTF is a grande?)...speed bump resulting in copious amounts of dried sticky coffee in your center console and carpet. That might change your mind Agreed. I don't get why everyone drools over the E30 M3. Its f'ing slow and it has a 4 cyl which is a 6 cyl with 2 cylinders lopped off. Its a cool looking car...I'll take my E46 M3 any day of the week.
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01-27-2014, 06:55 PM | #105 |
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You really need to take the e30 M3 on a hard drive on a back road to understand it. It's just... the best handling car I've ever driven. Absolutely agreed that it's not particularly fast in the slightest, but as a driving experience it's pretty unrivaled. The S14 is low on power, but being able to constantly floor it instead of constantly holding back has it's own charm.
e39 cup holders can ONLY hold a red bull can, and only if you don't accelerate, brake, or turn. They're in a class of their own, imo
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01-28-2014, 02:33 AM | #106 |
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I may be wrong, but hasn't M always been more about the chassis than the engine? Sure, the engines may not be NA today, but when was the last time you drove a "bad handling" BMW? I believe that's something that has been one of the main characteristics of a BMW, especially a M BMW, regardless of the engine.
Just like a lot of other automakers, BMW had to shift its standards and question its roots, to stay in competition with the rest of the crowd. BMW and M may not be "pure" anymore, but the same goes for other automakers. There are even rumours that the successor to the 458 Italia will sport a 6-cyclinder FI engine, to comply with regulations. Look at F1 cars - their engines might have "downgraded" from those glorious sounding V10's, but it doesn't hinder the sport's excitement or how we look at F1 cars. I think we all should be grateful that a BMW is still mainly a RWD car and that a BMW generally feels better to drive than a lot of other cars. That is, until they release the "Active Tourer"... |
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01-28-2014, 05:03 AM | #107 | |
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Here's an intriguing thought: Perhaps this whole time, for the last 30 odd years, the M designation was simply a marketing tool from the very start, and that we "enthusiasts" bought the advertised philosophy -- the story -- hook, line and sinker. That this whole time, BMW used us, the enthusiasts, to market their product for them, to trumpet the greatness of the M badge to the unsophisticated car-buying public. And after we did such a fantastic job, BMW decided that we weren't needed anymore, that our opinions no longer mattered (since we represent a very small percentage of actual M car purchasers), since the M designation could now sell itself (X5M, X6M, etc.) and that the so-called M mythology was NOT in fact created by BMW, but actually by us, all these years spoon-fed by those "interviews"/"talks"/"meetings" with M division execs in the early years touting an idealized M vision that they knew would captivate us. Wouldn't that be something? I'm not a conspiracy theorist by any stretch of the imagination, but this make for an interesting marketing thesis ... Last edited by schoy; 01-28-2014 at 05:20 AM.. |
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01-28-2014, 09:17 AM | #108 |
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The myth died with the E30 M3 that came with A/C, leather seats, high fi radio, heated seats, powered moonroof,windows, headlights wipers and washers etc..
Not really a race car. Hahaha Last edited by US///M3; 01-28-2014 at 09:25 AM.. |
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01-28-2014, 10:06 AM | #109 |
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I was hoping for the M235i Racing to be a stripped down, raw and aggressive track car, but then they had to go and put in A/C and keep the display on the dashboard. Yes, it's probably cheaper for them to keep it like that for production purposes, but is it really needed? Are you going to fine tune your A/C temperature while flying around the track?
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01-28-2014, 10:29 AM | #110 | |
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So, agreed that chassis is more important than the engine. But, disagree that that disproves BMW has lost its way.
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