No love for 17's?

[Millie]

I'm considering a dedicated set of autox wheels and Hoosiers for next year. I've looked around and a square 18x10 looks to be the 'standard' for track and autoslalom. Almost no one is running the 17x10 with 275/40 other than the first car on Apex's promo thread. Am I missing something?

[jphughan]

17s would lower your ride height another half inch assuming sidewall height remained consistent, which could be an issue on some tracks but probably not auto-x. Maybe there are more tire choices in appropriate sizes of 18s and/or the cost of tires is negligible between the two (remember 18s will last longer due to more contact surface area), or at least the extra cost isn't enough to justify the aesthetic impact and extra speedo inaccuracy?

Granted those concerns would all be minor to moot for track/auto-x, but that's all I can think of. 275/35 would probably be better than 275/40 just to minimize sidewall flex though.

[jphughan]

^HA! Excellent point, forgot about that MUCH more critical factor than anything I mentioned. I doubt they'd clear. Good call!

[bigjae1976]

I run 17's on my E46 M3 with 355mm stoptechs. The only issue with 17s is that track worthy street tire choices are limited...pretty much nil the last time I checked. If you're at the point of going with R-Comps...17s are a no brainer unless you are running a 380mm BBK.

I will downgrade to a 355mm front BBK at some point on my E90 M3.

A 275/40R17 is the same height as a 275/35R18. NT01s are about $200 cheaper per set in 17s vs 18s. If you have a Stoptech 355mm BBK which stops every bit as good as a 380mm BBK...then you save $$$ on pads as well.

355mm front BBK + 17" Apex ARC8s sacrifice almost nothing but saves you a lot of $$$ over time.

[tdott]

Originally Posted by jphughan

17s would lower your ride height another half inch assuming sidewall height remained consistent, which could be an issue on some tracks but probably not auto-x. Maybe there are more tire choices in appropriate sizes of 18s and/or the cost of tires is negligible between the two (remember 18s will last longer due to more contact surface area), or at least the extra cost isn't enough to justify the aesthetic impact and extra speedo inaccuracy?

Granted those concerns would all be minor to moot for track/auto-x, but that's all I can think of. 275/35 would probably be better than 275/40 just to minimize sidewall flex though.

You sound like you have no idea what you are talking about

Most 17s don't clear, it's only the Apex so maybe that's why you don't see many cars with them. Also there are more sizes and tires available in 18s. No real need to goto 17s unless you were a top fuel dragster looking to shave a few tenths.

[jphughan]

^ What exactly made you think I have no idea what I'm talking about? I didn't see you disagree with anything I said, in fact the only common point to our posts (more tire choices for 18s) we agreed on. Everything else in my first post is factually correct, and I conceded in a second post that clearance would likely be an issue because I hadn't initially thought of that.

But like I said in my first post, I hadn't thought much about why you don't see 17s on M3s, I was just throwing ideas out doing what I could to help a fellow forum member. Chill out and don't be so quick to judge, dude.

[WarrantyTracker]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

A 275/40R17 is the same height as a 275/35R18. NT01s are about $200 cheaper per set in 17s vs 18s. If you have a Stoptech 355mm BBK which stops every bit as good as a 380mm BBK...then you save $$$ on pads as well.

Lighter too. This is really a tempting setup. I worry about investing in the rims and then the supply of NT01s disappears. Probably just paranoid. I think they're a Mustang size so that probably helps keep them in the lineup. There's always the R1s (but they're no bargain in 275/40R17) and the RA1s as plan B. Or using the 17s as snow rims.

[Porschefile]

17's don't clear sufficient E92 brakes, and the weight savings is minimal. There's a reason everybody rocks 18x10's

[Vic311]

Originally Posted by Porschefile

17's don't clear sufficient E92 brakes, and the weight savings is minimal. There's a reason everybody rocks 18x10's

^THIS

I don't even know why this is being discussed.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Porschefile

17's don't clear sufficient E92 brakes, and the weight savings is minimal. There's a reason everybody rocks 18x10's

Originally Posted by Vic311

^THIS

I don't even know why this is being discussed.

APEX ARC8 17s clear the OEM brakes. Yes, your selection of wheels is pretty much limited to ARC8s. But, you do save 1.5lb per corner (wheel and tire). Which you give up from all of the cash you save on the wheels (~$160), tires (~200 per set), and cheaper mounting at places that charge extra for low profile tires (~$10/ tire). 40 series are usually not considered low profile.

Most R-Comps are available in a 275/40R17.

So don't discuss this...and spend about $500/yr more on tires.

[Porschefile]

Most folks aren't huge fans of the stock brakes (myself included). I doubt anyone on this forum could feel a 6 lb savings, even in unsprung. The most economic/fun tire option I found was 275 conti slicks, which run about $400 a set and last pretty damn well. I see no advantage to 17's even for those of you that do run stock brakes.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Porschefile

Most folks aren't huge fans of the stock brakes (myself included). I doubt anyone on this forum could feel a 6 lb savings, even in unsprung. The most economic/fun tire option I found was 275 conti slicks, which run about $400 a set and last pretty damn well. I see no advantage to 17's even for those of you that do run stock brakes.

The Apex 17s clear the 355mm Stoptechs. A set of new NT01s are $830 shipped. Even I you burn through 2 sets of conti slicks for $400/ set, you save on the hassle of mounting 2 sets of tires.

You don't buy 17s for performance, you buy them to save money while losing no performance...at least nothing significant.

[Millie]

Originally Posted by Porschefile

Most folks aren't huge fans of the stock brakes (myself included).

I only autocross, the stock brakes are more than sufficient. Most people get aftermarket calipers for the look anyway.

[M3ZCP6MT]

Originally Posted by Millie

I only autocross, the stock brakes are more than sufficient. Most people get aftermarket calipers for the look anyway.

+1

[ApexWheels]

Hey guys,

We just wanted to chime in to clear up any confusion here about 17" wheels on the E9x M3 platform and reinforce correct facts stated by other members.

Brake Clearance:
Our 17x10" ET25 wheels have no problem clearing OEM brakes on the E9x M3 as well as StopTech 355mm BBK's and many other BBK's on the market as well.

Tires:
275/40/17 tires are the exact same diameter as 275/35/18 tires. This makes lightweight 17" wheels such as our APEX ARC-8's great alternatives to 18" wheels without compromising tire width.

Cost:
When we consider both scenarios (17's vs. 18's), there is a significant price difference in a wheel and tire package. Here is a quick comparison of 10 inch wide square setups in both diameters:

17x10" Wheels w/ Kumho XS 275/40/17: $1884.00
17x10" Wheels w/ Hoosier R6 275/40/17: $2408.00

18x10" Wheels w/ Kumho XS 275/35/18: $2360.00
18x10" Wheels w/ Hoosier R6 275/35/18: $2660.00

This shows a savings of $476.00 for a street setup and $252.00 for a track/race setup for going with 17" wheels. When you factor in how many sets of track tires one might go through in a given period of time, the savings can quickly add up.

Why not 17's?
There are many assumptions that 18" wheels perform better than 17" wheels. 17x10" wheels have the necessary sidewall support for 275 width tires. Extreme summer tires and R-compounds have stiff sidewalls that don't flex noticeably more in 17" sizes than 18" sizes. Although there is more sidewall rollover, the added sharpness in steering response is not very significant. You'll feel more body roll, but if you can drive the car/tire to its limits, it won't be much slower than an 18" equivalent setup. Grassroots Motorsports Magazine (GRM) did a study that showed that there is negligible performance differences at an auto-x event when comparing 17" wheels to 18's. The difference in steering feel can be noticed in slalom sections with quick switchbacks. The tradeoff is increased wheel and tire weight for added steering response at the extreme limit of driving. A driver who can consistently drive a car at 10/10ths of its physical limit will be the one who can adequately take advantage of the difference in 18" setups, but the average consumer will not.

Most people buying track setups are looking for the most cost effective solution to get lots of grip while not wearing out their normal street tires on their 18" street wheels. As a dedicated track setup, 17's make a lot of sense. Think about it as a cost vs. performance comparison. Are the seconds or fractions of seconds saved by running an 18" setup worth the extra hundreds of dollars that go into purchasing it? Wide 17's with R-compounds or extreme summer tires are already significantly faster than the stock setup. For many people that is the primary goal.

Aesthetics:
We understand that many E9x owners care about how their car looks on and off the track, and we are right there with them! For dual duty purposes, the 18's are a great value because of their performance and their looks. 17" wheels have meaty tires that are a great track/race look, but get less recognition from the general public on the street.

Conclusion:
If you're going for dual duty purposes, the 18" wheels will do the car justice. If you're going for the best bang for your buck track setup, and are willing to sacrifice that tiny bit of performance, 17" wheels are the way to go.

Please let us know if you have any additional questions about these different setups and we can definitely find the one that works for you and your needs!

[bigjae1976]

Again...the only downside is that good street tire choices are limited in a 275/40R17. BUT...if you go with the 17x9.5 you can run a 255/40R17 until you step up to R-Comps. There are lots of good street tire choices in a 255.

[Porschefile]

Well they don't fit over my 380mm brake kit, so it is not an option. I know 355 stoptechs would prob be alright, but if I'm going to drop the bucks I want the biggest heat dissipation possible.

I love Apex 18's for the ST 380's though!

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Porschefile

Well they don't fit over my 380mm brake kit, so it is not an option. I know 355 stoptechs would prob be alright, but if I'm going to drop the bucks I want the biggest heat dissipation possible.

I love Apex 18's for the ST 380's though!

I know...I'm already stuck with the 380mm unless I spend MORE on another BBK. So its 18s for me until then...

[SYT_Shadow]

I'm running 17x9.5 et35 Arc8's on my E46M. 255 RS3's are $600 a set and 275/40 NT01s are 20% cheaper than their equivalent in 18"

Not a lot of tire choice which is the problem, but until I can run the NTs I'm using square 255 tires which give a good feel of the car

[Kunman]

255/40/17 street tires could work too, there is triple the selection to 275s.