New Speculations on the F30 M3 / F32 M3

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by southlight

I heard BMW did great things with the new M5 engine, so I still have hope.

I have no doubt about how good the new M5 F10 is even without knowing anything about. I have nothing against turboes, on the contrary even, I seem to like the McLaren MP4-12C more than the Ferrari 458 Italia. But for the M3 I just would like to have it an exception: diferent.



Merry Christmas!

Cheers,
Levi.

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by ruff

I believe BMW still has a viable market out there for the hard core enthusiasts. BMW was one of the pioneers to attract and mine this very market when it developed the M Division. Porsche is beginning to mop up the market share of disaffected M enthusiast and I believe the defection to Porsche will continue at an accelerated rate.

On a positive note, the 1M is a turn back in the right direction for M, especially given the budget and time constraints. Though I think most 1M shoppers would gladly dish out an addition 5k+ to get a unique M motor with a few more ponies. It will certainly steal market share from the Japanese sports car manufactures.

As I have said in the past and other reiterated, if the next generation M3 came equipped with a tweaked S65, or they threw in the S65 B44 powerplant from the GTS and dropped a hundred + pounds, it would save development/production costs and continue the M tradition of high revving banshee screaming race tuned M cars.

Anyone who has driven the current M3 knows that the race bred S65 is what makes the car so special. Porschephiles knows the unqualified importance of the dry sump racing GT1/Mezger motor found in the GT3. And anyone who follows the Z06 knows what the race bred small block LS7 means to the Corvette faithful.

I have seen more than a few folks here state their desire to own a GT3 vs the faster GTR and a lot of it has to do with the character of the GT1 motor, even though it gives up a lot in horsepower and torque to the Nissan twin turbo. And the talk of "soulessness" of the GTR is in part due to it's technologically advanced transmission and electronic nannies that ironically make it even faster.

It is sad to see the M division abandoning the brilliant S65 and its racing ties. It is the closest powerplant to the Ferrari F430 in sound and character on the market today, and at a fraction of the price. Remember how we celebrated this very fact and gloated about its eight individual throttle butterflies and 8400 red line. Let me repeat that - 8400 red line. How quickly we forget. The next generation M3 could take a page from Ferrari and implement DI and remain the Ferrari like power plant at a bargain basement price to the 458. And throw in livable back seats for free, just because. Sounds like an enticing marketing campaign for BMW to snatch away Porsche market share.

I don't think I have ever really agreed with much of what you say on the forums, but for me, you are speaking from my head and heart. This post really sums up what makes the ///M3 so special, and as someone who has never owned a Porsche, I don't see how I won't in the future because I can't afford a F430

Cheers,
e46e92

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by southlight

I heard BMW did great things with the new M5 engine, so I still have hope.

Merry Christmas!


Best regards,
south

South, you know I RESPECT your opinion, but I will once again repeat myself in hopes it will begin to sink in. There is a difference between a great car, and a special car. The C63 and S4 are great cars, the e92 ///M is a special car. The M5 might be a great car, but with that type of engine it will not be special, it will be like every other car on the road.

I mean even Ford has been able to create an exciting N/A that gets respectable gas mileage.

Cheers,
e46e92

[RandyB]

I agree with ruff's post as well. I wanted to see continued development of the S65 with DFI and 12.5:1 CR perhaps, along with more lightweight materials to shave some more weight from the car. The engine is what made the E9X M3 so special to me and I just can't get excited about the new M engines. A faster car than the E9X M3 is just not enough reason for me to want one (see: GT-R).

[Pete_vB]

Well since this thread is all about speculation, I figure it won't hurt to do a little of my own... The following is based on zero special information from the factory, it's simply what I think I might do in their position.

We've been told that the "S55" is going to be a turbo six based loosely on the N55 design and using Valvetronic and making roughly 450 hp. Based on those assumptions:

3.3L inline 6
460 hp peak power at 7400 rpm, 7500 RPM redline
Boost slightly less than the N55 (improves response)
85.5 mm bore
95 mm stroke

Essentially this motor would behave very similarly to an E46 M3s, but boosted to make 40% more hp. The stroke above is 95mm vs the 105mm described first in this thread, which allows 7500 rpm with a reasonable 23.8 m/s piston speed. Unlike the 3.5 stroker, this motor would have a flat torque curve and pull to the 7500 redline.

It has been suggested that the block can't be bored out further and valvetronic can't rev higher than 7000. To address this I'd fully deck the N55 block block to safely increase the bore; I'm guessing this would allow an extra ~1.5mm without adjusting cylinder spacing. To increase Valvetronic's RPM, ultra-lightweight titanium and inconel valves/ retainers would be used, much lighter than normal for a 7500 rpm motor, to reduce the valvetrain weight and hence reduce spring pressure on the valvetronic actuator. Head flow would be in the range of previous M3s, much better than the N55, allowing for the high peak power at low boost.

I'd also look into more radical boosting concepts- I particularly like an electrically assisted turbo (plus 1-2 normal ones?) for this application (could be activated with the M setting), though they are probably not mature enough yet. Supercharging plus turbocharging, as in VW's twincharger, would be another good option. Either of these could not just reduce but actually eliminate turbo lag down low.

The hoped for result of this would be a motor that feels normally aspirated, but with the efficiency advantages of the turbo. The GT2 RS makes 38% more power with 10% less CO2 vs the GT3RS, and they weren't even trying. It's obvious that boosted is the way to go, the question is how to go about it. This motor could likely match or exceed the power output of an updated S65 while being lighter and under 2/3 of the CO2 output.

The motor I've described above would be more expensive and have few practical advantages over the 3.5L stroked motor this thread is based on. Power output would be identical and this motor would arguably have less torque. The feel of the two motors, however, would be dramatically different.

It will be interesting to see which perspective BMW comes at this from. German BMW engineers are used to building driving tools, and I'm not sure they fully understand the premium other countries place on feel and driver involvement.

[swamp2]

Ruff, thanks for putting some effort in to a MUCH better post. I knew you had it in you. I agree! On your point, and that from others, the fact that the S65 is the closest production engine to the one from the F430, at a small fraction of the cost is indeed incredibly appealing. This motor had plenty of development work left in it and not realizing some of that potential is a bit sad. Just look at what tuners have done ~500 crank hp with software and bolt ons. That is not even using DI nor upgrading any internals...

Originally Posted by dpsfm3

Though I've officially converted to MDCT from stick shift, I wouldn't be surprised to see manual transmissions (stick shift) eliminated all together in the M3.

I think we have heard a rumor that the M3 would be available only with a DCT. It would make sense. It is a better transmission for the car. That decision would obviously perturb the MT faithfuls though. The 1M or M2 would then be offered MT only or perhaps after the 1M with a choice.

Back to engines... BMW seems to be quite aware of folks desires to have an engine that feels NA. They certainly have built up a tremendous amount of marketing steam behind the point. So...does anyone know anything about what their rumored tri-turbo might be like? As I stated before the tri turbo in the M3 would also be a marketers wet dream.

Also, we've not been talking much about KERS. This could be a way to tailor the feel of the engine. However, it might also only work in a track type environment with repeated cycles of braking and WOT/heavy acceleration.

[cmk227]

Originally Posted by E39hijinks

If BMW does not include a manual in the new M3, I will have lost all faith for the brand.

Agree. No 6 MT

[BMW269]

A M car is nothing without sound: M3 E30, M3 E46, M3 E92, M5 E39, M5 E60 all sounded as Motorpsort.
M3 F32 with TT I6 will NEVER sound as M3 E46
M2 F22 with TT I4 will NEVER sound as M3 E30
M5 F10 with TT V8 vs. M5 E39 may be a different story, about which I may not care, but it will NEVER sound as M5 E60.

I do not know how are you, M3 E9X drivers, going to be able to accept no more hearing your engine sound at 8.400 rpm?
The M3 E92 may be a less good drivers car than the 1SMC E82, M3 E46, Z4MC E86 or some other, but just for the sound, it is worth buying the car, even with stock exhaust.

[iceman335]

For some reason I still believe BMW will pick the V8 engine for F3x M3, you don't have to believe me, but please look at the new monster AMG 5.5L TT V8, it's compact, light and lots of potentials(I know I know, it is Benz, not BMW M...), but business is business, sometimes you just have to follow the market rule and trend, or you lose business...

If you have the following 3 options, which one you would pick? I simply will pick #3.

1. BMW "new" Inline 6 turbo M engine ~450hp
2. Tuned current M3 S63 engine, add FI ~450hp
3. Compact Twin Turbo V8(3.8-4.0L, keep the weight down and redline up, similar idea to the new McLaren MP4-12C,) ~500hp+

[southlight]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

South, you know I RESPECT your opinion, but I will once again repeat myself in hopes it will begin to sink in. There is a difference between a great car, and a special car. The C63 and S4 are great cars, the e92 ///M is a special car. The M5 might be a great car, but with that type of engine it will not be special, it will be like every other car on the road.

I mean even Ford has been able to create an exciting N/A that gets respectable gas mileage.

Cheers,
e46e92

Fair enough. You know the good thing is that the E9x M will be available for another year. Nothing should stop you to get one while you can. The engine alone makes it a keeper.


Best regards,
south

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by southlight

Fair enough. You know the good thing is that the E9x M will be available for another year. Nothing should stop you to get one while you can. The engine alone makes it a keeper.


Best regards,
south

My problem is that I am 21 and financially, it will be quite dificult, almost impossible if nothing changes, to afford an M3 E92. For M3 F32, I think no problem, but will I love it as much as I love the actual M3 E92? Sure because it is newer, but maybe not because it is "better", in my way of understanding.

[BMW269]

Well, I would not be against a TT I6 if it revs till 8.500 rpm like the McLaren, and sounds like the M3 CSL, but it will NEVER be so.

[brizzom]

I will probably switch to porsche for my next car ... but I gotta say the renderings look pretty good!

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by brizzom

I will probably switch to porsche for my next car ... but I gotta say the renderings look pretty good!

1M is also a good looking car, but the engine not. If you switch to Porsche, wait for the new 911 (991). It will be the best looking 911 ever. It is going to put the mark very high in ALL ways.

[jonasaurus]

Originally Posted by Levi

1M is also a good looking car, but the engine not. If you switch to Porsche, wait for the new 911 (991). It will be the best looking 911 ever. It is going to put the mark very high in ALL ways.

That being said the new 911 will be a bigger car. A 997 GTS wouldn't be a bad proposition, new DFI engine, wide body, RWD, power kit standard etc

[bkwon327]

3.5l triturbo.. Sounds fun but good luck maintaining it... It's gonna have major overheat issues..

[jonasaurus]

Ah yes agree with your point but I meant bigger in the sense of dimensions not weight!

[ruff]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Actually no. Porsche is probably the only manuf. that has kept weight in tact, if not lowered it. The new 911 is going to be even better handling, even faster, and even higher quality than it already it.
Expect a layout with the engine pushed more towards the middle of the car, ~400-410 hp, 32000-3300 lbs and again another step up in performance from the 997.2. New Carrera S will be dipping into the high 11s for the 1/4 mile, probably high 8s for 0-100 mph, and faster track times as well. New GT3 will be pushing 475-500 hp N/A too.

Rumor has it the last 997 GT3 to leave the factory may be called a GT3 RS Limited Edition pushing 500 NA hp, with a possible presentation in May or June of 2011. It should also be noted that the GT3 RS was recently chosen over the 458 Italia and the GT2 RS as car of the year in Evo magazine.

Given the GT3 RS base price is $135,500 and the GT2 RS and 458 Italia push a quarter of a million bucks, just goes to show how special the 6mt GT3 RS is. Its power numbers are a meager 450 hp and 317 lb-ft torque vs a monster 620 hp and 516 lb-ft torque from the GT2 RS (which happened to run a blistering 7:18 at the Nordschleife) while the incredible NA 458 Italia produces 570 hp and 398 lb-ft of torque and ran a 7:28 at the Ring.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Levi

A M car is nothing without sound: M3 E30, M3 E46, M3 E92, M5 E39, M5 E60 all sounded as Motorpsort.
M3 F32 with TT I6 will NEVER sound as M3 E46
M2 F22 with TT I4 will NEVER sound as M3 E30
M5 F10 with TT V8 vs. M5 E39 may be a different story, about which I may not care, but it will NEVER sound as M5 E60.

I do not know how are you, M3 E9X drivers, going to be able to accept no more hearing your engine sound at 8.400 rpm?
The M3 E92 may be a less good drivers car than the 1SMC E82, M3 E46, Z4MC E86 or some other, but just for the sound, it is worth buying the car, even with stock exhaust.

Each generation M3 has had its own sound. The E46 and E9X being the most distinct (IMO). The E46 had that nasty metallic race engine sound (and "rasp" as some called it). Many did not like the rasp at all - even many hardcore M guys who owned the car. Hence all of the aftermarket exhausts with "rasp elimination". Of course the E92 at full clip is a true banshee of a V8, albeit with a somewhat conservative exhaust volume. BMW places more thought on the sound of their cars that most of us can imagine. That effort is even heightened for the M series cars. I have every reason to believe that the sound from the new M3 will be unique again, it will have a true Motorsport sound and I can guarantee it WILL be desirable, by M enthusiasts and BMW fans in general.

This pattern of so much doubt for the M3 repeats itself like clockwork across many different criteria and across every generation. Funny thing is that all of the naysayers and critics are ALWAYS silenced. Some call me a fan boy, I simply call it confidence and observation.

The car will not have the most torque nor power, it will not have the best interior nor luxury. Finally it will not be the fastest and it will not handle the best. However, as an all around package it will be very nicely placed for the price and will eclipse the current car in nearly every metric that matters. So unless cylinder count is the only thing that matters, have just a touch of faith.

[FStop7]

My next ride will be Porsche or AMG. I will own a regular BMW like a 328i because they're awesome daily drivers. But I am done with M unless they get their act together.

[BMW269]

The M3 F32's engine, S55, will be shared with the coming X3 M and Z4 M. But will it also be given to the rumoured M version of BMW i100 (VED), M100?
If the i100 makes 150 HP Diesel plus 200 HP Electric, so 350 HP, then the M100 should make 650 HP, 450 HP Pertrol plus 200 HP Electric, right?

[ruff]

Originally Posted by shift@red

I do need to correct you on one thing though. The GT3 RS ran the ring at 7:33 and the 458 italia ran it in 7:38. So again, all those numbers and tech in the 458 italia couldnt overcome the precision and flat out athleticism of the GT3 RS.

I try to do my do diligence before posting. According to the latest fastestlaps.com, Scuderia Autoropa did post a 7:28 in the 458 Italia at the Nordschleife.

http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife.html

However, I do recently remember seeing the same 7:38 number you quoted on the same site.

This is an excellent video showing the crème de la crème of sports cars: