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02-28-2011, 04:09 PM | #45 |
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+1 if they can make this thing redline ≥8,000 they may not have lost me after all.
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02-28-2011, 04:37 PM | #46 |
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The most recent version of C&D reports I6TT.
As far as power, really hard to know with a turbo engine. We have no idea how they plan to tune it...
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02-28-2011, 06:28 PM | #47 | |
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Advantages of the V6 architecture are a shorter, more compact engine and a stiffer crank for any given design. |
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02-28-2011, 06:57 PM | #48 | ||
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In point of fact, as with any auto (dating back to that '41 Olds "Hydramatic"), it shifts itself, or you can manually shift it. Plus of course it has two pedals instead of three. I continue to call it an automatic (just like all those other designs), but I don't mind a bit if you call it something else. Just try not to flash your nomenclature badge all over the place. You lack authority. Quote:
The one I drove was fine when you were chasing after it (spectacular, in fact), but not very smooth on takeoff, or in slow-speed shifting. I continue to read about folks who have hesitation problems (reluctance to pick a gear) at very low speeds. |
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02-28-2011, 09:42 PM | #50 |
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Inherent smoothness due to it being naturally balanced. A V6 would require balancing shafts to get the same effect, but will never quite be as smooth. I suggest looking this up on google/wikipedia. Too complex to go through in detail here.
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02-28-2011, 10:02 PM | #51 | ||||
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You can continue to use any term you want. I'll continue to be critical of your choice. Quote:
The transmission behaves wonderfully at either a granny pace or a race pace. Of course dual clutch units only continue to get better, higher torque capacities, improved software, lower parasitic losses, etc.
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02-28-2011, 10:20 PM | #52 | |
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I personally haven't had any hesitation issues *knock on wood* , and my understanding is that these have been largely sorted out. My biggest complaint about the transmission (which no one here has mentioned, surprisingly) is that the 'automatic' mode ("D") is absolute rubbish. Unlike the brilliant manual transmission modes, pretty much any D mode I have used has proven to be laggy, clunky, and generally unpredictable. I am never quite sure what gear it will place me in, irrespective of my throttle input. One can only expect so much out of an automatic transmission, but for a transmission with 7 gears, it has all the smoothness and versatility of a 4-speed toyota transmission. This is a pretty small gripe though, as I hardly ever let the car shift for me. And IMO, calling the DCT an 'automatic' transmission does not really do it justice. On a technical, and more importantly, on a practical level, its operation is quite different from your traditional automatic. Last edited by Echo M3; 02-28-2011 at 10:25 PM.. |
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02-28-2011, 10:23 PM | #53 | |
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Any V6 no matter the bank angle is inherently unbalanced. Any inline engine with an odd number of pistons has a primary (rocking) imbalance. Put two of these odd cylinder engines together into the V6 design and you still have primary imbalance. You can get rid of the primary imbalance with counterweights but no matter what the bank angle, any V6 takes both masses and rotating shafts to achieve both first and second order balance.
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02-28-2011, 10:24 PM | #54 |
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The abscence of a NA engine will be one strike against the F3x, the abscence of a manual tranny will be the deathnail! It seems pretty obvious the TT is on the way,be it I6 of V6, and this I can live with. However, no manual option is a total deal breaker.
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02-28-2011, 10:33 PM | #55 |
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I can (obviously) answer that . Bruce calls any dual clutch transmission such as the BMW M-DCT, VAG DSG, Porsche PDK, Ferrari F1 dual clutch, Nissan GT-R dual clutch, Mitsubishi TC-SST, etc., etc. an AUTOMATIC transmission.
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02-28-2011, 10:38 PM | #56 | ||
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In a manual car you also control the shift quality which can either be performed smoothly and efficiently causing a warm gooey sensation right in the middle of your gut or unsmoothly leading to your passengers head bouncing off the dashboard and the car audibly smacking you with groaning and grinding from the gearbox. The point is you can derive satisfaction from a manual shift, which can't happen if the car doing it for you... only marvel at the cars own abilities, which IMO gets old really fast. Besides if shifting just involves moving pushing a pedal and moving a lever everyone could do it and the fact is driving manual properly is a skill not possessed by everyone. Quote:
To further expand... what is the new merc AMG box? It's a true automatic mated to a wet clutch instead of a torque converter... yet this will operate with identical performance to any dct box. Is it an automatic? semi-automatic? What about the new lambo independent shift rod box? Is it a manual or semi-manual because it's a single clutch design mated to what is essentially a normal manual box? The point is the line has become so blurred that anything that has the ability to shift itself is an automatic gearbox irrelevant of the process involved.
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03-01-2011, 04:07 AM | #57 | |||||
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As you can see I plainly disagree. I believe the term is neither technically nor "conveniently" correct nor useful for these units. Quote:
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03-01-2011, 07:55 AM | #58 | |
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In order to avoid confusion, it makes most sense to call any transmission that has the ability to switch gear ratios by itself - without any driver involvment at all - an automatic transmission. Sure, we could call such transmissions "automanuals". That would perhaps be a better or more accurate term. The problem is that people have been calling this type of transmission an "automatic" for decades (since '41 according to Bruce) now and I don't see how it is necessary nor practical to rename them at this time, especially not at the behest of some new technology that is completely internal to the transmisison and does not change the driver's side of the shifting process. And FWIW, yes, if someone designs a transmission that has a clutch pedal and yet still has an automatic mode - that's an automatic transmission. Why? Because it can shift by itself. Conversely, if someone designs a transmission with no clutch pedal that can only be shifted by the driver, then that is a manual transmission. In other words, going back to your first paragraph, the exact nature by which the shifting is accomplished is not important, the only thing that matters is whether gear ratios can be selected automatically or not. Simple. |
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03-01-2011, 12:29 PM | #59 | |
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DCTs have both a manual mode AND and automatic mode. While in the automatic mode (although you can absolutely still feel that these suckers are "manuals" on the inside) certainly from the user interface perspective it "is" an automatic. I've never argued otherwise. However, it is ONLY an automatic from ONE single perspective, that of the user interface. In stark contrast, when in manual mode (once you get over this hang up of two steering wheel paddles vs. the floor "paddle" and transmission tunnel "paddle" in the traditional MT) then it is a manual transmission in ALL key regards (user interface, feel and internal construction). Now that being said you do not hear me erring on the other side of the argument and calling DCTs manuals. They aren't. Even though I believe they are more manual than automatic (for the exact reasons above), I won't use purposefully loaded words. Surely you can not argue that "automatic", especially in performance circles, is not a loaded word. Again call a horse and horse and call it a DCT. Also since no DCT I'm aware of has only an automatic mode or only a manual mode the term automated manual is also perfect. Well automatable manual is even a bit better but that's sort of splitting hairs...(and sounds a bit corny...). There is no reason other than pride/"politics"/ludditism to choose the term - automatic - which again drastically misconveys key parts of the design and experience of the system.
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03-01-2011, 01:02 PM | #60 | |
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03-01-2011, 01:05 PM | #61 | |
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03-01-2011, 02:14 PM | #62 | ||
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Absolutely, and so does BMW's Steptronic (OEM ZF 8 speed), and many similar transmissions used by just about every other automaker. So yes, lot's of different types of modern transmission offer both manual and automatic modes.
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But modern torque-converter style transmissions use computers to shift now too. So by that same measure, these are semi-automatic transmissions as well. |
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03-01-2011, 05:03 PM | #63 | |||||
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Again, and as others have pointed out to you, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck... Two pedals. It shifts itself or lets you shift it. Just like the 1941 Oldsmobile. Quote:
Wow. If your ego is that brittle... For me, there is no stigma attached to automatics, and in fact, it's clear that for most uses, they're better performers than sticks - including the DCT and PDK autos, of course. I've been interested in the development and application of automatics ever since Jim Hall beat up on everybody in Can Am racing in his two speed (Powerglide) Chaparral more than forty years ago. Now, automatics (of various technologies) have come of age, and they'll continue to improve. Sticks won't. I personally enjoy shifting, but sooner or later... Quote:
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03-01-2011, 05:05 PM | #64 |
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03-01-2011, 05:09 PM | #65 | |
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Nonsense. Yeah, yeah. Harmonics of whatever order. For me, if it is in first order balance, it is in balance. I think we're done here. |
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03-01-2011, 05:10 PM | #66 |
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