Rod Bearings Replaced - Question

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

Some tiny metallic flecks are normal in drained oil. You could have the oil analysed and look for copper but it's also possible it's wear from the mains. If you did everything 'by the book' on the RB job you should have anything to worry about.

Or you can post a pic of the flakes you're looking at.

I will try to get some photos that show the little flecks that are larger than the normal particles that cause "metallic sheen." They are not large enough to pick up with your fingers. I have just never seen anything like this in this engine before. Freaking me out.

I will also send some oil out for analysis to see what kind of metal it is.

My car has lead/copper main and rod bearings.

I certainly tried to do the job by the book. We will see I guess.

At least there is no knock or big pieces of metal in the filter. I do not think anything has spun yet. No low oil pressure warnings or the like.

Cheers,

[///M3Fresh]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

First, I have no idea what Scharbag is looking at in his oil. "Shavings" to me may mean something totally different to him.

You can't look at oil and tell where the metal is coming from. The engine is all metal, it wears and all that material metal gets pulled out in the oil. If he's seeing obvious copper shavings then that's an obvious red flag. An analyses will help determine the type of metal and its concentrations.

Got it, so I misunderstood your statement. You meant in general, after a RB job its ok to see some microscopic levels of metal. That oil should be changed and good to go from there. I wasn't sure if your statement was in reference to being ok after his second change of oil ~50miles of driving after.

Scharbag -- I am sure you'll be ok if everything went by the book. I would still not drive it until 100% certain if you have a second car. Keep us posted!

[deansbimmer]

Rod bearings aren't supposed to be making contact with the journals, so there shouldn't be any metal in the oil from bearings. I'm saying that when looking at oil you can't differentiate between metal coming from a bearing from metal from cylinder bores, timing components, or anything else in the engine. A metallic sheen in the oil with some micro particles of metal are pretty normal. But again, if there are shavings large enough to pick out of the oil that's never good. There's no way to tell where they're coming from without disassembly.

[Scharbag]

Here is what is in the bottom of a clean drip pan that I used to drain the oil.

Fun times.

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by Scharbag

Here is what is in the bottom of a clean drip pan that I used to drain the oil.

Fun times.

Did your old bearings knock? Were there bits in the oil when you replaced the old bearings? Was the oil pan absolutely clean when reinstalled?

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

Did your old bearings knock? Were there bits in the oil when you replaced the old bearings? Was the oil pan absolutely clean when reinstalled?

The old bearing did not knock and looked fine. The pan was clean. I ran the engine at idle for a bit after the change and then did an oil change. Looked fine. Now after 100KM with new oil in there, I have metal bits in the filter housing and sump.

There does not seem to be a knock at this time. Car was driving fine. I just was paranoid so I pulled the filter to look and found some metal.

[deansbimmer]

I've seen oil with more shavings than that come out of engines that seemed fine. Anecdotal of course, but aside from going back in there to explore, there's not much you can do.

Oh....or main bearings...

[nyc_dude]

I was at Auto Talent and BE Bearings yesterday in Los Angeles, after my rod bearings were installed. My 2009 //M3 e90 had 177k miles on it.

I studied the old shells and spoke with Lord Zolti about the wear patterns, since I am an engineer. Sent off an oil sample to Blackstone Labs for a before and after comparison of lead/copper content.

The shells showed lead wear for 60% of the surface area on the tops with no copper showing. The bottoms looked ok with much less wear. The two half shells are compressed/crushed by the torqued rod bolts and at the edges this shrinks the oil gap to almost nothing. At all edges on most cylinders there was wear all the way down to the copper on the tops. After another few tens of thousands of miles, large chunks of lead/copper would have started to flake off. Since the tiny tab that keeps the shells on the rod/cap is also on the edge, if that fails then the bearings will spin and could damage the engine/crank/rods.

I followed the BMW recommended 15k mile oil change interval using Castrol/BMW 10w60 (both stupid). BMW couldnt incorrectly design the bearings on e9x S65 V8s like they did on e46 I6s engines, could they?. Fool me once...Fool me twice.

My worn //M3 drives like a champ now...smooth as a Camry.

Here are some tips:

- Change your oil after 1000 miles after the bearing install.
- Switch to Liquid Moly 10w60 GT1 sold in 5 Liter Containers (BMW/Castro is garbage)
- Stay under 3000 rpm (too late)
- Send off oil samples to Blackstone Labs before the rod bearings install, after 1000 miles, and monitor every other oil change (5000-7500 miles).
- Be careful if you drive in sub-zero weather all winter, and maybe select a lighter oil.
- If you had a 2008 S65 then that is the highest risk scenario.

- Check your oil visually in the oil filter housing before each oil change. Look for metal flakes, specifically copper colored metal. Clean the housing during the oil change.
- Listen for rod knock that gets louder as you increase engine rpms, with the hood open or drive for 10 minutes with the windows down and radio off (especially on a very cold morning).
- Monitor Engine Temp creeping above 100C.
- Try to feel for unusual vibrations on the engine plenum with your hand.

- NOTE: Just because you changed your rod bearings doesn't mean the main bearings are safe long term.

BTW New Motor Mounts ($150) solved my rough idle and shudder problems. I didn't need a new idle control valve and fuel tank breather valve installed ($1000 saved).

I am sure you did a good job and you selected the best redesigned BE Bearings. But if you didnt, long term reliability will suffer. You will have some warning before a premature engine issue, so listen to your engine when it talks to you.


Best of luck,

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

I've seen oil with more shavings than that come out of engines that seemed fine. Anecdotal of course, but aside from going back in there to explore, there's not much you can do.

Oh....or main bearings...

Thanks for the info. I will wait till I can do an oil analysis before doing anything. May order an oil pan gasket just to have it on hand incase I need to drop the pan for inspection.

If it is the mains, it would be a cruel coincidence for sure...

Cheers,

[Duk996]

Originally Posted by Scharbag

Here is what is in the bottom of a clean drip pan that I used to drain the oil.

Fun times.

That looks totally unacceptable to me...

[pbonsalb]

Maybe its just paint flakes from the magnesium valve cover.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

Maybe its just paint flakes from the magnesium valve cover.

this is an interesting perspective. Maybe that's what it is

[Scharbag]

I checked with a magnet and nothing in the bottom of the catch pan is magnetic. I know there is a lot of aluminum in this engine but you would think something would be magnetic if it was eating the rods.

Interesting comment on the valve cover coating. That would be goodish?

I captured the oil that I dropped out of it in clean jugs and it looks pretty clear (I shook it up and put it in a glass container). Other than air bubbles, there does not seem to be anything in it at all. Took a photo of it on a bright light and it looks pretty good.

Put new oil in the car and started it up (my mechanic buddy told me to). No knock or strange noises at all. Did not rev it past 3K even when warm. Sounds fine. Let it idle long enough to show the oil is right in the middle of the indicator (8.8L - works like a charm).

Opened up the filter housing and other than the slag that runs off the aluminum housing threads, the oil in the filter housing is nice and clear. No particles and no sheen.

I am still going to send a sample away for testing before I drive it again.

Thank you all for the help and suggestions.

Cheers,

[Duk996]

Originally Posted by Scharbag

I checked with a magnet and nothing in the bottom of the catch pan is magnetic. I know there is a lot of aluminum in this engine but you would think something would be magnetic if it was eating the rods.

Interesting comment on the valve cover coating. That would be goodish?

I captured the oil that I dropped out of it in clean jugs and it looks pretty clear (I shook it up and put it in a glass container). Other than air bubbles, there does not seem to be anything in it at all. Took a photo of it on a bright light and it looks pretty good.

Put new oil in the car and started it up (my mechanic buddy told me to). No knock or strange noises at all. Did not rev it past 3K even when warm. Sounds fine. Let it idle long enough to show the oil is right in the middle of the indicator (8.8L - works like a charm).

Opened up the filter housing and other than the slag that runs off the aluminum housing threads, the oil in the filter housing is nice and clear. No particles and and now sheen.

I am still going to send a sample away for testing before I drive it again.

Thank you all for the help and suggestions.

Cheers,

Check the pleats of the oil filter for metal. When my mains went they were loaded. A potential donor engine I was looking at had a bunch too from the rods (supercharged). The engine I finally went with had none.

[SYT_Shadow]

OP, valve cover coating would be a complete non issue.

It's kind of strange.

The last time I did rod bearings they were missing material in all the parting lines. Maybe they would should up in the oil pan like what you're seeing?

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by Duk996

Check the pleats of the oil filter for metal. When my mains went they were loaded. A potential donor engine I was looking at had a bunch too from the rods (supercharged). The engine I finally went with had none.

I have opened the pleats by hand and did not find any metal in it. I will go cut the filter ends off and open it up some more to be sure.

The photo shows the only pleat that I found a tiny fleck of metal in.

[Transfer]

I love the OCD of this thread.

[atopa2002]

Originally Posted by Transfer

I love the OCD of this thread.

go drive the car and enjoy it.

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by atopa2002

go drive the car and enjoy it.

I would love too but it is now -20C here again. Damn prairies!! Back on the battery tender she goes...

This works out as it allows me to send a sample away for analysis.

One bonus is my QuickJacks are supposed to arrive today!!

Cheers,

[NoHedge]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

this is an interesting perspective. Maybe that's what it is

Don't mean to hijack the thread. I also found small metallic pieces trapped inside my oil filter. Pic #5 & 6 (

https://imgur.com/a/FM0Xv) looks like it could be related to -> https://imgur.com/a/FM0Xv) looks like it could be related to -> View post on imgur.com

Last oil analysis came back fine, but I'm seeing more/larger flakes despite a shorter interval so I plan on replacing the bearings if this trend continues.

[anerbe]

Hmm...with the magnetic properties, could be the valve cover...

Now with flakes, did you get another oil analysis?

[NoHedge]

Originally Posted by anerbe

Hmm...with the magnetic properties, could be the valve cover...

Now with flakes, did you get another oil analysis?

I'm hoping it is.. but there are many parts that are ferrous inside an engine so unfortunately it's impossible to pinpoint.

Yep. Just waiting on the report now. Will report back.