Spa Trackday: BIBLICAL FL brake failure (Glowing Disc!)

[ltw 11]

Originally Posted by BOJ

Stock brakes are a must change.

Pagid RS29 with proper hoses and brake oil should be a good "low cost" alternative.




Donovan, what is the car you have in the avatar? Who did prepare it?

[MaxL]

Originally Posted by aus

Someone here cooked some AP brakes at the track too. The car's just too fat and there's not ducting.

Not disagreeing with the second part of the statement, but you can cook brakes on practically any car - even F1 cars can cook brakes and pilots have to learn brake management techniques, and these cars about 1/3 of M3's weights and use best available materials. Quest for brakes that do not overheat ever is similar to quest for a car set up that does not understeer at all. It's all about what connects the seat with the steering wheel

[mastek]

Originally Posted by MaxL

Not disagreeing with the second part of the statement, but you can cook brakes on practically any car - even F1 cars can cook brakes and pilots have to learn brake management techniques, and these cars about 1/3 of M3's weights and use best available materials. Quest for brakes that do not overheat ever is similar to quest for a car set up that does not understeer at all. It's all about what connects the seat with the steering wheel

Very true
.....but it has been more difficult then most cars I've raced.

[jml]

It weighs 4K lbs....jesus, what do you expect. It's not a race car, nor is it a track queen. A BBK is not going to make it invincible....some time behind the wheel may make it faster. All cars have limits that the driver must learn to master and embrace.

All GT3 drivers I know are floored by the speed of the M3 - mainly because to drive a GT3 quickly is frickin super-difficult. No amount of suspension-moton-frotons, PCCB, or carbon fiber is going to make the GT3 go faster. Seat time will, and learning how to manage the machine given to you will pay off.

[mastek]

Originally Posted by jml

It weighs 4K lbs....jesus, what do you expect. It's not a race car, nor is it a track queen. A BBK is not going to make it invincible....some time behind the wheel may make it faster. All cars have limits that the driver must learn to master and embrace.

All GT3 drivers I know are floored by the speed of the M3 - mainly because to drive a GT3 quickly is frickin super-difficult. No amount of suspension-moton-frotons, PCCB, or carbon fiber is going to make the GT3 go faster. Seat time will, and learning how to manage the machine given to you will pay off.

The frotons make me faster too

[elh0102]

I haven’t read this entire thread, but from a partial review, it seems to be continuing a brake discussion that I find interesting, although sometimes disappointing. Many drivers and owners of the current M3 are very critical of the OE brake system. But I think we all know, the OE brakes are more than adequate for any use under the car’s warranty. Pro or amateur, some drivers have either no understanding of, and/or no respect for the limitations of certain mechanical components of their car. The factory brakes in this case are not the best available. I put a StopTech system on my car, and yes, it is a much better system than OE. But, I suspect the same driver and same conditions would have produced problems in that setup as well. I had a 996 GT3, and I would consider that brake system of comparable capacity to the StopTech currently on my M3. But, if driven with comparable aggression, I’m certain the M3 would give up before the GT3. Both weight and weight distribution have a big influence in that comparison. In driving, one has to be constrained by the limits of the various systems in the car. Does it make sense to be critical of the maker because the car doesn’t hold up under conditions for which it was not designed? I tend to think not.

[racer01]

With the M3 being BMW's premier "sports car", it is not unreasonable to expect equipment that could rival the equivalent price range Porsche in engineering and "trackablility". I am definitely in the minority, but there are quite a few BMW fanatics who like to be able to do track days in their cars with nothing more than swapping to proper track pads. My e36 was definitely fine with some Hawk racing pads, as the brakes were ok for the hp/weight of that car. Unfortunately the drilled rotors, and particularly the very small surface area of the stock pads that is dictated by the single piston calipers is just not adequate for any serious track use, even with full out racing pads folks are having troubles with melted seals, very rapid pad wear, and often overheating and fading that will end your day at the track with frustration.
It is disappointing to me that BMW did not put better brakes on their "halo" sports car.....wouldn't have cost too much in production costs to put a decent 4 piston setup on the front and forget the bling of drilled rotors...hell the new mustang, Evo, STi, Z06, CTS-V, Camaro, Charger, Boxster, Cayman, Elise, and G35 all have 4 piston fixed caliper front brakes.
I agree the brakes are fine for the street.....never owned a car that the brakes weren't fine for the street. This is the best sports car BMW has to offer, and IMHO it is a shame that the market seems to be ok with the fact that it just isn't up for track use. It is a great car otherwise, but I hate the direction BMW is going in....wish they would build a "poor man's" Porshe 911 GT3 someday. I can't afford the real thing.

[elh0102]

Originally Posted by racer01

I hate the direction BMW is going in....wish they would build a "poor man's" Porshe 911 GT3 someday. I can't afford the real thing.

Well, all is not perfect in the P world either. I sold a 996 GT3 and got another M3. As a track car, the GT3 is wonderful, once you learn how to drive it. But, as a street/track car, I found it tiresome.

[saeedg48]

holly shit! - wtf

[jml]

Originally Posted by racer01

With the M3 being BMW's premier "sports car", it is not unreasonable to expect equipment that could rival the equivalent price range Porsche in engineering and "trackablility". I am definitely in the minority, but there are quite a few BMW fanatics who like to be able to do track days in their cars with nothing more than swapping to proper track pads. My e36 was definitely fine with some Hawk racing pads, as the brakes were ok for the hp/weight of that car. Unfortunately the drilled rotors, and particularly the very small surface area of the stock pads that is dictated by the single piston calipers is just not adequate for any serious track use, even with full out racing pads folks are having troubles with melted seals, very rapid pad wear, and often overheating and fading that will end your day at the track with frustration.
It is disappointing to me that BMW did not put better brakes on their "halo" sports car.....wouldn't have cost too much in production costs to put a decent 4 piston setup on the front and forget the bling of drilled rotors...hell the new mustang, Evo, STi, Z06, CTS-V, Camaro, Charger, Boxster, Cayman, Elise, and G35 all have 4 piston fixed caliper front brakes.
I agree the brakes are fine for the street.....never owned a car that the brakes weren't fine for the street. This is the best sports car BMW has to offer, and IMHO it is a shame that the market seems to be ok with the fact that it just isn't up for track use. It is a great car otherwise, but I hate the direction BMW is going in....wish they would build a "poor man's" Porshe 911 GT3 someday. I can't afford the real thing.

A Fixed caliper system is not the full story, a lot more goes into it - and the systems you mention ALL have issues at the track, primarily because the rotors is a cheap design (save the Z06, which has a very good system, with EXCELLENT cooling from the factory). Hell, I have nearly died twice in a GTR with students who think the car has tireless boat anchors - they fade in the first couple hot laps if not managed well.

[racer01]

I understand a fixed caliper or X number of pistons means nothing by itself, but you gotta admit single piston calipers and tiny brake pads are not that effective in a 3600 lb, 415+ hp car on the track. My point was that for just a few more bucks, BMW engineers could have definitely supplied more effective brakes on this car that would take the heat of a light track day with the proper temp pads. Our rotors are pretty massive, but the pad friction surface area (~6.15"x2.5") appears to be very similar to the e46 M3 and e36 m3, which is dictated by using the single piston caliper and just doesn't have the thermal mass or surface area needed for such a heavy and powerful car.
I'd think it would be a good opportunity for someone to market just a caliper upgrade, that would allow a much bigger and thicker pad to be used with our stock rotors.....seems to me that would solve much of the issues we are seeing.

[JAJ]

The larger pads will last longer and larger calipers will keep the peak fluid termperatures lower over a lap, but it's the rotors that need upgrading more than anything else. See this thread for more:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=427944

Originally Posted by racer01

I understand a fixed caliper or X number of pistons means nothing by itself, but you gotta admit single piston calipers and tiny brake pads are not that effective in a 3600 lb, 415+ hp car on the track. My point was that for just a few more bucks, BMW engineers could have definitely supplied more effective brakes on this car that would take the heat of a light track day with the proper temp pads. Our rotors are pretty massive, but the pad friction surface area (~6.15"x2.5") appears to be very similar to the e46 M3 and e36 m3, which is dictated by using the single piston caliper and just doesn't have the thermal mass or surface area needed for such a heavy and powerful car.
I'd think it would be a good opportunity for someone to market just a caliper upgrade, that would allow a much bigger and thicker pad to be used with our stock rotors.....seems to me that would solve much of the issues we are seeing.

[garek]

I agree with racer01. For whatever reason, the OE brake system on this car disappointing because it doesn't hold up well on the track, even with proper pads and fluid. When you track this car, it becomes obviously quite quickly that the weak point of this car's performance is the brakes. Of all the cars that BMW makes, this is the one that's going to be on the track the most, and they should have equipped the car as such.

Instead, I think most of us who track this car regularly have installed a BBK. Now, every time I drive the car, I think "these are the brakes the car should have come with."

At the very least, I think BMW should offer an upgraded brake package for the track enthusiasts. That way, I wouldn't have to listen to anal/uninformed service advisers who flip out about the aftermarket brakes when I bring the car in for service.

[mastek]

There is something to be said for "class-action settlements" ... the Z8 owners made it happen ... so could we - IF we wanted to ... the fact is - its easier, faster to get a BBK and forget it.

The M3 should have come with at least proper calipers ...so we can upgrade the rotors (like the GTR and a myriad of Brembo caliper'd OE cars)

[Checkcaptain]

Originally Posted by JuniorM3

2.51.712 With passenger. Half tank of gas.

Sorry, was not in to this post for a long time.
That is a quite good time for Spa in a stock M3 E92 - congrats.
I was doing about the same laptimes in my stock M3 too, now I am working in the mid 40´s with some mods. Hope to see you some day there

[enricob]

Originally Posted by Checkcaptain

Sorry, was not in to this post for a long time.
That is a quite good time for Spa in a stock M3 E92 - congrats.
I was doing about the same laptimes in my stock M3 too, now I am working in the mid 40´s with some mods. Hope to see you some day there

mid 40's ???

[monsta]

just read the entire thread & now I'm a bit worried about my up coming trackdays (3 in May, 2 in June and more to come)

I getting SS lines installed next week, SRF fluid, RS19's pads & am in desperate need of some brake ducts, but am still concerned if that is enough even though I'm no pro I do intend to increase my skills

[Jeff_DML]

Originally Posted by monsta

just read the entire thread & now I'm a bit worried about my up coming trackdays (3 in May, 2 in June and more to come)

I getting SS lines installed next week, SRF fluid, RS19's pads & am in desperate need of some brake ducts, but am still concerned if that is enough even though I'm no pro I do intend to increase my skills

JuniorM3 is a pro

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junior_Strous

so unless you are a pro, I wouldn't worry about it

[monsta]

Originally Posted by Jeff_DML

JuniorM3 is a pro

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junior_Strous

so unless you are a pro, I wouldn't worry about it

fully aware of it, just wondering how far I can go on set up mentioned in my previous post, if all goes as planned I'll be doing atleast 2trackdays a month every month for the entire season ending in Oct/Nov & eyeing VIR w/ Chin in Dec...I'm thinking I have no choice but to upgrade to a BBK

[VictorH]

Originally Posted by monsta

just read the entire thread & now I'm a bit worried about my up coming trackdays (3 in May, 2 in June and more to come)

I getting SS lines installed next week, SRF fluid, RS19's pads & am in desperate need of some brake ducts, but am still concerned if that is enough even though I'm no pro I do intend to increase my skills

How many times have you been to the track? I just got back from 2 days at VIR (Potomac Audi club, did a great job running this HPDE). Like you I have RS19s and high temp fluid, everything else is stock. Ran a bit over 240 miles on the track over two days, threshold braking and getting up to 1.1 g's of braking force (on old OEM Continential Contact sport tires with 18K miles and 6 track days, 4/32" tread) by VBox and no fade whatsoever. I ran this same set up at Road America at the O'fest for over 500 miles and also no fade.

Maybe it's some of the pro drivers who are having trouble, but myself and others have not had trouble with this. If you want another opinion call and ask to speak to Matt, Mike, Paul, Allison or one of the other instructors at the Performance Center and they'll tell you the same thing. I was at CMP which is really a brake heavy track which is why lots of people are not big fans of that track and we ran the Perf Center cars there all day, hard, with stock street pads and again no fade.

I'm not saying that this is not an issue, clearly some good drivers have had problems with loss of braking performance at some tracks, but like lots of other issues (DCT lag, spitting power steering pump reservoirs, etc) I think the magnitude of the problem has been inflated.

[rzm3]

Originally Posted by monsta

fully aware of it, just wondering how far I can go on set up mentioned in my previous post, if all goes as planned I'll be doing atleast 2trackdays a month every month for the entire season ending in Oct/Nov & eyeing VIR w/ Chin in Dec...I'm thinking I have no choice but to upgrade to a BBK

Hey Monsta,

When you reach the limit of your brakes, you will know.

For the first couple track days they will work just fine.

When you start to get fade and/or vibration after track day, that's when you should get a BBK.

Enjoy and be safe my friend Can't believe it's been almost three years already.

[saeedg48]

....wow