Ebay cosmetic parts...

[dparm]

Originally Posted by dfjaws

This.

I'm blown away by the sound and power increase with my Turner test pipes and Megan exhaust... and the whole thing was <$1100. I don't see how some exhausts can be so expensive.

To be fair, stuff like titanium and inconel is expensive....but I don't think it's THAT expensive. There is a markup for "bragging rights", and of course due to the low-volume of it (they aren't exactly cranking out thousands of these exhaust systems every week).

[ChiTownM]

Originally Posted by dparm

To be fair, stuff like titanium and inconel is expensive....but I don't think it's THAT expensive. There is a markup for "bragging rights", and of course due to the low-volume of it (they aren't exactly cranking out thousands of these exhaust systems every week).

Interesting viewpoint....if they were less expensive though more people may buy them since they can afford them. However it is hard to gage a market for those manufacturers and since BMW is a premium brand, prices are higher. Look at the price for aftermarket parts for M6 or Porsche, Ferrari......less volume, higher price.

On another note, thanks to this forum or IND, EAS, etc, we also have the opportunity to buy USED original parts in good shape that fit the budget.

It comes down to everybody's preference, there is no ultimate right answer.

[Amirsm3]

In regards to titanium, you cant just TIG or MIG weld it. It takes special procedures and equipment to weld together a full titanium exhaust.

But, there's no way the full GT4 Akro exhaust is "worth" close to 10k retail after shipped and sales tax (assuming you buy in your home state).

[whats77inaname]

Originally Posted by Ilia@IND

Unfortunately prices are dictated mostly by an economy of scale. When creating carbon parts, the costs of production are more or less fixed- the tooling, material, and labor costs are the same, whether a manufacturer makes a 3 foot wide Mini lip or a 3 foot wide M3 lip.

When the manufacturer sets his pricing, he must spread his tooling costs across the projected sales volume in order to stay in business. If the Mini market is larger than the M3 market, you get a cheaper part as a result, all other factors being equal (like material, country of manufacture, etc.)

Typically, brand name manufacturers like AC Schnitzer, Vorsteiner, Hammann, Challenge, and others will design a part in a unique way. The style or appearance of the part is special and does not resemble anything else on the market. An overseas manufacturer will then purchase the genuine part and create a mold of this component, not using the original master mold tool, but making a mold of an already finished part. This creates two problems:

• Making a mold of an existing part introduces error into the originally designed dimensions, and typically creates a flawed fit that must be addressed prior to install.
• Selling a replica component cuts the revenue stream to the original manufacturer, causing financial difficulties for the people who originally created the design.

The latter issue has come with the most severe consequences in the Japanese wheel business- countless wheel designs have been discontinued as the original manufacturer can simply no longer afford to build the genuine product.


My question to folks who buy replica is always the same- What happens when there are no original designers left? What do you purchase when the cheap companies you have supported have made folks with original designs close up shop and move on?

I've found that the folks who buy replica product are typically the same folks that complain that there is nothing available for their car. Look at the E46 M3 market, for example.

Vorsteiner had a host of components available for the E46 M3, everything from several style of hoods to several front bumpers, diffusers, trunks, etc... As the E46 M3 dropped in value more and more people began to pursue replica products to save a few dollars. Vorsteiner's product sales slowed, and the E46 M3 product line was eventually removed from the company's catalog.

Today, I get calls frequently about where to find E46 M3 aero and carbon products. I am frequently asked "Why does no company with a high standard of manufacturing quality and a commitment to the community make product for the car anymore?". The reason is, the community did not have a commitment to the manufacturer, choosing instead to support replica manufacturers that have no regard or respect for the consumer.

Ultimately, as a consumer you always vote with your dollar. Buying replica is a fine way to save money, but it has, does, and always will impact the aftermarket industry in a very real way. Do not be surprised when the replica manufacturer does not care about your problems if you have an issue with your part. And do not be surprised when the manufacturers that were there for you and were willing to help are no longer interested.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on some of your points.

1) I can appreciate the fact that companies need to make a profit, but some the prices on most of this stuff is *OUTRAGEOUS*. It has nothing to do with my ability to afford it, which I can, I just can't quantify how the majority of companies, including IND, hit us with the "M" tax for *EVERYTHING*, even inconsequential things. I like you guys, your body of work, and your passion for automobiles. BUT, that comes at a price, and if people are willing to pay for it, hey, it is what it is, but a lot of stuff I see out there, I'm constantly *smh* @ the prices.

2) You picked a bad example by using Vorsteiner. They have fitment issues, just like everyone else, and some of their products aren't all that great. There are quite a few posts on here about that, here are just a few:

www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=956191

www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=855423

www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=833394

www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=724160

I recently purchased a rep diffuser from a forum member. The cost was $280 shipped. The OEM manufacturer is *known* for having hit or miss fitment issues, then giving people a hard time about resolving their issues. I was informed that the fit of this part was spot on, and that was confirmed with pics of it installed. I paid less than 1/4 of the price of the non-rep part. So, as a rational person, I can't fathom paying $1k+ for a part that *might* fit (and if it doesn't, having to go through all the bull to get it returned, which some of these places won't if you drill a hole in it to get it mounted correctly) when I could get guaranteed fitment and excellent quality for a whole lot less.

3) Why do people purchase replica parts? B/c the original designers price their stuff too high. You say that the manu. has to spread their investment cost across anticipated sales, which is one of the factors as to how they determine their price point, correct? The reps have to do the exact same thing, but their products are cheaper in price. A lot of the time, the quality is the same. They are willing to meet their numbers by moving more volume by selling at a lower price point, as opposed to having a high price point and selling a lower volume.

A lot of companies sell at a *huge* mark up b/c those of us who purchase these cars tend to be a bit more affluent, and have more disposable income and manufacturers know this, and raise their prices accordingly. You mention buyers cut revenue stream of the manufacturers by buying reps? If the manufacturers would lower their price point to something a buyer would deem a bit more reasonable and not so obviously inflated, a lot more people would be willing to support them and less likely to buy a rep.

I understand everyone wants to make money, and completely understand pricing and demand, but it would appear that keeping prices artificially high at the expense of lowering the price and generating more sales is the business model some companies follow.

[Z K]

There are also many instances where eBay sells parts from manufacturers that have created a totally new part that did not exist before. In these cases, they are the original creators and do not steal market share or take away from the creators of the "original" part that the design is based on.

An example of this is the LCI taillights for the pre-LCI E90. BMW never created these but demand for a "LCI-style" taillight for the older E90s created this part and a manufacturer stepped up to fill this gap. Now we have good looking taillights that never existed before. They are a "replica" of the original BMW parts but totally new in that this part never existed from BMW.

Here's a pic of them on an M3

[s85e90]

Originally Posted by Z K

There are also many instances where eBay sells parts from manufacturers that have created a totally new part that did not exist before. In these cases, they are the original creators and do not steal market share or take away from the creators of the "original" part that the design is based on.

An example of this is the LCI taillights for the pre-LCI E90. BMW never created these but demand for a "LCI-style" taillight for the older E90s created this part and a manufacturer stepped up to fill this gap. Now we have good looking taillights that never existed before. They are a "replica" of the original BMW parts but totally new in that this part never existed from BMW.

Here's a pic of them on an M3

those look awesome

[s85e90]

Originally Posted by whats77inaname

I'm going to have to disagree with you on some of your points.

1) I can appreciate the fact that companies need to make a profit, but some the prices on most of this stuff is *OUTRAGEOUS*. It has nothing to do with my ability to afford it, which I can, I just can't quantify how the majority of companies, including IND, hit us with the "M" tax for *EVERYTHING*, even inconsequential things. I like you guys, your body of work, and your passion for automobiles. BUT, that comes at a price, and if people are willing to pay for it, hey, it is what it is, but a lot of stuff I see out there, I'm constantly *smh* @ the prices.

2) You picked a bad example by using Vorsteiner. They have fitment issues, just like everyone else, and some of their products aren't all that great. There are quite a few posts on here about that, here are just a few:

www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=956191

www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=855423

www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=833394

www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=724160

I recently purchased a rep diffuser from a forum member. The cost was $280 shipped. The OEM manufacturer is *known* for having hit or miss fitment issues, then giving people a hard time about resolving their issues. I was informed that the fit of this part was spot on, and that was confirmed with pics of it installed. I paid less than 1/4 of the price of the non-rep part. So, as a rational person, I can't fathom paying $1k+ for a part that *might* fit (and if it doesn't, having to go through all the bull to get it returned, which some of these places won't if you drill a hole in it to get it mounted correctly) when I could get guaranteed fitment and excellent quality for a whole lot less.

3) Why do people purchase replica parts? B/c the original designers price their stuff too high. You say that the manu. has to spread their investment cost across anticipated sales, which is one of the factors as to how they determine their price point, correct? The reps have to do the exact same thing, but their products are cheaper in price. A lot of time, the quality is the same. They are willing meet their numbers by moving more volume by selling at a lower price point, as opposed to having a high price point and selling a lower volume.

A lot of companies sell at a *huge* mark up b/c those of us who purchase these cars tend to be a bit more affluent, and have more disposable income and manufacturers know this, and raise their prices accordingly. You mention buyers cut revenue stream of the manufacturers by buying reps? If the manufacturers would lower their price point to something a buyer would deem as bit more reasonable and not so obviously inflated, a lot more people would be willing to support them and less likely to buy a rep.

I understand everyone wants to make money, and completely understand pricing and demand, but it would appear that keeping prices artificially high at the expense of lowering the price and generating more sales is the business model some companies follow.

So true, and I thought the same thing when I read the comparison to vorsteiner . Comparing so called shitty parts to guaranteed expensive shitty parts. Vorsteiner's track record coupled with the new e46 crowd who simply won't pay the high prices (esp when the cars are worth little compared to the uber expensive parts) creates the demand for the cheaper rep parts including body parts, lips, and exhausts as well.

Keep in mind the labor rate for the factory workers in Japan/China and the factories manufacturing which is producing 10k units a month. No one here is selling pure CF parts, they are all overlays to a FRP or Fiberglass core.

I would be happy to support parts designed and fabbed up in the USA at a reasonable cost but:
A- no one is doing it
B- no one including me and you will work that cheap as other countries who produce it

Again, I have had great luck w/ reps from Ebay for front lips that vendors want 1,000 + for that will inevitably get damaged in the street on a DD.

[s85e90]

we used to laugh and say stuff was made in Japan and was of lesser quality years ago, but now its excellent. The same will be said of the Chinese stuff as it is copied toolings from the Japanese market. Wait and see, it will get bettter. Then we will be even less of a player in the global economy.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by s85e90

Keep in mind the labor rate for the factory workers in Japan/China and the factories manufacturing which is producing 10k units a month. No one here is selling pure CF parts, they are all overlays to a FRP or Fiberglass core.

I would be happy to support parts designed and fabbed up in the USA at a reasonable cost but:
A- no one is doing it
B- no one including me and you will work that cheap as other countries who produce it

Chinese labor is cheaper right now but it is catching up to International standards quickly. As for Japanese labor, Japanese labor costs more than US labor! It is extremely expensive to produce parts in Japan. It makes sense as the cost of living in Japan is higher than the USA.

[quiksi]

this thread makes me want to go find that replica diffuser I've been wanting to buy on eBay.

[W///]

Originally Posted by whats77inaname

I'm going to have to disagree with you on some of your points.

1) I can appreciate the fact that companies need to make a profit, but some the prices on most of this stuff is *OUTRAGEOUS*. It has nothing to do with my ability to afford it, which I can, I just can't quantify how the majority of companies, including IND, hit us with the "M" tax for *EVERYTHING*, even inconsequential things. I like you guys, your body of work, and your passion for automobiles. BUT, that comes at a price, and if people are willing to pay for it, hey, it is what it is, but a lot of stuff I see out there, I'm constantly *smh* @ the prices.

2) You picked a bad example by using Vorsteiner. They have fitment issues, just like everyone else, and some of their products aren't all that great. There are quite a few posts on here about that, here are just a few:

www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=956191

www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=855423

www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=833394

www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=724160

I recently purchased a rep diffuser from a forum member. The cost was $280 shipped. The OEM manufacturer is *known* for having hit or miss fitment issues, then giving people a hard time about resolving their issues. I was informed that the fit of this part was spot on, and that was confirmed with pics of it installed. I paid less than 1/4 of the price of the non-rep part. So, as a rational person, I can't fathom paying $1k+ for a part that *might* fit (and if it doesn't, having to go through all the bull to get it returned, which some of these places won't if you drill a hole in it to get it mounted correctly) when I could get guaranteed fitment and excellent quality for a whole lot less.

3) Why do people purchase replica parts? B/c the original designers price their stuff too high. You say that the manu. has to spread their investment cost across anticipated sales, which is one of the factors as to how they determine their price point, correct? The reps have to do the exact same thing, but their products are cheaper in price. A lot of time, the quality is the same. They are willing to meet their numbers by moving more volume by selling at a lower price point, as opposed to having a high price point and selling a lower volume.

A lot of companies sell at a *huge* mark up b/c those of us who purchase these cars tend to be a bit more affluent, and have more disposable income and manufacturers know this, and raise their prices accordingly. You mention buyers cut revenue stream of the manufacturers by buying reps? If the manufacturers would lower their price point to something a buyer would deem as bit more reasonable and not so obviously inflated, a lot more people would be willing to support them and less likely to buy a rep.

I understand everyone wants to make money, and completely understand pricing and demand, but it would appear that keeping prices artificially high at the expense of lowering the price and generating more sales is the business model some companies follow.

I can't tell you how many times I've looked at pictures, asked a vendor how much for the product, and got back such a ridiculous price that I don't even bother responding. I don't understand that ///M taxes exist, but $2000+ for a lip is just absolutely stupid (IMHO).

What happens if they go out of business or stop making parts? Tough sht as far as I'm concerned. Someone else will figure it out at a more reasonable price. Heck, even M Performance parts are cheaper than some of these aftermarket vendors.

As for replica parts, I've had pretty bad luck to be completely honest. The 3-4 pieces have all been mediocre at best. I bought a replica from a vendor here after seeing how they fit on my friends E92 (they looked completely OEM). When I got mine, they were fit so bad it's sitting in my garage right now.

To the OP, this is how I mod.
If it's a big ticket and you best get it right. Bite the bullet and do it (assuming it's not completely outrageous like some of these vendors charge). For example, I went with an OEM CF trunk spoiler because it's going to be right there in your face if you get it wrong. The replica part I got was so far off on the sides, and weave wasn't even that great.

For the rest of the stuff, I buy used. Saved me thousands of dollars. Let the previous owner take the hit, just gotta be patient and wait for the part to come up FS. Especially now that the new M3/4 is coming out, that shouldn't be a problem.

[M3PO]

Vorsteiner is also a bad example because they started out making replica parts (CSL trunks and such) and then moved to making original stuff.

[rjd598]

Originally Posted by quiksi

this thread makes me want to go find that replica diffuser I've been wanting to buy on eBay.

Cf splitters are calling my name...

[whats77inaname]

Originally Posted by W///

For the rest of the stuff, I buy used. Saved me thousands of dollars. Let the previous owner take the hit, just gotta be patient and wait for the part to come up FS. Especially now that the new M3/4 is coming out, that shouldn't be a problem.

+1. You and I talked about this on another thread, as we follow the same thought process. 80% or more of what I buy for my car is used. Heck, looking at the used MRF X-pipe I recently acquired as I type this, waiting for the HJS 100 cell cats to come in (had to buy the cats new, but picked them up for a song on eBay).

[dpgfunk]

Bought some cf splitters once on ebay, will never do it again. Fitment was horrendous.

[Amirsm3]

Originally Posted by dpgfunk

Bought some cf splitters once on ebay, will never do it again. Fitment was horrendous.

That's no good :/

[Kung Fu English]

Originally Posted by s85e90

we used to laugh and say stuff was made in Japan and was of lesser quality years ago, but now its excellent. The same will be said of the Chinese stuff as it is copied toolings from the Japanese market. Wait and see, it will get bettter. Then we will be even less of a player in the global economy.

Yep. America is now Japan's Mexico.