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11-30-2008, 06:42 AM | #177 | |
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Regardless, maybe we should wait until the E92 M3 finishes its production run before we start second guessing whatever motor BMW has not even announced? I'm sure they will make something special, turbo, supercharged, or whatever. |
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11-30-2008, 07:34 AM | #178 | |
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Best regards, south
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11-30-2008, 08:54 AM | #179 |
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The handwriting has been on the wall for quite a while for BMW on the direction that M engines must go.I am not a fan of unnaturally aspirated cars as you loose so much of the finite throttle control that is required in lower grip situations while being driven at the limit.So far a normally aspirated engine can provide that control at the limit.The 335 that is in our household is a very good example of a properly set up turbo engine but the the throttle control is sorely lacking on boost to properly control the wheelspin in lower traction situations.I think my present M will be staying around for a while if this is the Direction that BMW is going to.
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11-30-2008, 10:40 AM | #180 | |
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When you have the power, you tend to use it. |
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11-30-2008, 10:47 AM | #181 | |
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Best regards, south
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11-30-2008, 10:51 AM | #182 |
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Agreed. However, I'm amused by a number of 335i folk's observations that their fuel consumption is more than anticipated! They know, and we all know, why.
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11-30-2008, 11:06 AM | #183 |
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Having lived in N America, Europe and the Pac region I do believe that gasoline is underpriced in the U.S. But we are well and truly hooked on low-priced fuel Hence a lack of decent public transport where I live: I would be fine w/ riding on a train to work and keeping the sports car for the purpose for which it was designed: tracks, not stoplights' drag races. Living in the US it's a guilty pleasure that running a hi-po V8 is not absurdly expensive. But thinking ahead it is also a technology that has had its day in the sun. We have been here before: why are late 60s / early 70s muscle cars such classics and highly collectible? That was a heyday. The current plethora of hi-po, low gas mileage, cars from Germany (AMG!), Italia, UK and the US exemplifies an echo period of the muscle car era. Just enjoy the present. And from what I have read some electrically-engined sports cars (e.g., Tesla) have instantaneous and substantial acceleration. I expect BMW will use FI to provide some serious urge to maintain the 'Ring track times.
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Just thinking of something not so witty ///M3 E92 '09 Jerez Black | 6MT | Ext Fox Red | Tech | Prem | 19s |Heated Seats | iPod |Smartphone | Euro Deliv June 09 Sold: 540iT / 530i / 323i Last edited by Voltigeur; 11-30-2008 at 11:36 AM.. |
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11-30-2008, 11:22 AM | #184 | |
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I realized a mistake I made in an earlier post, BTW. I implied that the N54 and N64 have Valvetronic when in fact the HPI motors don't use Valvetronic. Forgot about that. So there's no need to worry about higher RPM for that reason, although there are probably plenty of other engineering issues to solve before the RPM can be increased to 8k or more. I'm sure BMW is working on it, but I doubt we'll see it in the X5/X6 M. Maybe M5. So we'll talk more about when more details start leaking out about the F1x M5/M6, and eventually the F3x M3. I just hope some derivitive of the S65 remains in the lineup somehow, somewhere. It's just such a great engine and it would be a shame to see it gone for good. |
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11-30-2008, 11:30 AM | #185 | |
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11-30-2008, 11:36 AM | #186 |
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I admit I haven't read all the posts on this thread, but I will chime in here. I really don't see the problem with a turbo engine. I happen to prefer turbos over na cars. I've had a twin turbo RX7, a 911 Turbo, and now my 335i, and love the feel of turbos kicking in. If I had the choice I would always take a turbo car over a na car. You have to learn how to compensate for the lag, which is one of the things that make it fun to drive.
Also, I am not saying that a 335 is better than an M3. I don't feel that way at all. In fact, my plan is to trade the 335 for an M3 as soon as my lease is up. I'm just saying that turbos can be a lot of fun, and as we all know, they're extremely easy to tune. Turbos just make it feel like the engine can breathe. Everyone has the right to their own opinion and I respect the love for the na M3, but I say bring on the M3 turbo. I, for one, am excited to hear that news!! |
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11-30-2008, 12:04 PM | #187 |
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My dealer tells me that is the largest complaint from the N54 clients.Thats pretty funny as we have been thrilled by the fuel milege with our 335 which is about 11.0l/100 kms in our normal usage and we have got a high as 7.5l/100 on our last trip to Tennessee.My M3 by comparision would be about 30-35% worse under the same conditions.The 335 by comparision is just another car where the M3 is an enthusiasts delight.
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11-30-2008, 12:26 PM | #188 |
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Unlike South I don't believe 8000rpm will be met by a FI engine of 3L capacity. FI usually means lower rev limits which centre around the 6.5~7K mark, maybe with rejigging the compression this might improve a little by I would be surprised to see it pass the 7.5, with 7.7K as the very upper limits of possibility.
Gearhead talked about throttle balance being a problem with turbo engines. I think this is not the lag which is the problem but the unnaturally high levels of torque that FI engines have compared to N/A engines, though this is more of a problem with turbos than superchargers. Think of it as driving your M3 with and without SportPlus engaged, the higher the revs the less the problem. Try driving one of those old Group B rallycars, then you will understand what lag really is. |
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12-01-2008, 01:10 PM | #191 | |
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RB26DETT - 8000RPM in the GTR34!!!!! 2.6L!!!! no lag!!! |
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12-01-2008, 01:44 PM | #192 |
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i was thinking this would increase the demand for used e92s...that would be good.
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12-01-2008, 04:45 PM | #194 | |
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Compare the throttle response of the E46 M3 to the 335. The E46 wins hands down.
Its simple PHYSICS. Turbos have to spin up and down to reach the proper speeds to compress air. This takes time and the result is a delay from throttle input to actually result. Its inherit to all turbos, all you can do is minimize it. I guess you could burn extra fuel to keep it spinning when not under power but that kind of offsets the "fuel economy" aspect. By the way this has zip, zero, nada to do with I6 vs V8. My old I6 and my other I4 car are just as responsive as my V8 M3. They don't have the same power, but what they have they give without delay or hesitation. No production turbo car can do that. Quote:
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Manual gearboxes, the rotary dial of cars.
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12-01-2008, 05:53 PM | #195 |
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12-01-2008, 05:58 PM | #196 | |
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If your turbo doesn't spool until 4k you are going to have problems with both.
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12-01-2008, 07:33 PM | #197 | |
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If your turbo spools at 4k, chances are its pretty big, and is going to make some pretty big power. |
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12-01-2008, 07:41 PM | #198 | |
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Lag is the delay from when you press the accelerator to when the engine reaches is peak power FOR THE CURRENT RPM. Turbo cars suffer from much more of a delay than NA cars since when going from low to high power the turbine has to accelerate to working speed in addition to all the other things a NA or supercharged car might need to do. Far too many people here and elsewhere confuse the 335s very wide powerband with an absence of lag. The flip side is I have seen the lag present in cars like the 335 make drivers think they are better than they are as the gradual build of power from when you hit the gas in effects filters their harsh throttle inputs and gives the effect of rolling on the gas gently.
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